Wit's End need's a Banner of Command level rework

DiveAlive·Mar 4, 2017·11 votes·1,510 views

Tired of seeing offensive armor items outclass it so convincingly and in most cases is still more efficient at it's niche.

33 Comments

ChaddyFantomeMar 4, 20174 votes

wits end is fine actually.

MuffledGarbageMar 4, 20172 votes

Let's pick apart WHY wit's end is so bad so you can understand

item 3091 +40% attack speed +40 magic resist

Basic attacks deal 40 magic damage on hit

Basic attacks steal 5 magic resist. The steal can stack 5 times

At first glance looking at wit's end you can see a large problem with it.

It's niche of stealing magic resist isn't powerful enough for the ranged adc's who would use it against mages.

It wouldn't be built by any character who synergizes well because of the more powerful options. Examples of on-hit abusers include Ezreal Bard Evelynn Camille Gangplank Jayce and Irelia

Let's just say for example I was playing Jax in the toplane against an Olaf

If Olaf decides to make his first buy a item 3091 because of jax's ultimate passive doing a lot of magic damage... he won't be able to deal enough damage to heal back the damage jax deals in a long-term fight AND I will either have built item 3057 and item 3101 to finish item 3078 or will have started on item 3145 item 3144 to finish item 3146

In that situation the MR doesn't help Olaf in the least.

I can see that item 3091 doesn't synergize very well with Olaf however Olaf likes to autoattack a lot.

Wit's end doesn't succeed in the purpose of being a good item for long term fights. We can tell that it's purpose is along those lines because we need to stack the passive with autoattacks.

Now let's set aside another example:

I am playing Ashe against a Ziggs in the botlane...

my support is Janna and their support is Braum ...

If I decide to buy item 3091 at any time during the laning phase... I am not able to trade back the damage ziggs builds properly.

I could have the most perfect janna and braum could be wood division levels of bad

but if I build item 3091 basically ever... I lose out on a lot of stats that I could have gotten elsewhere.

Sidenote:

Holy crap I went on for a while on this.... dang...

Anu3isIIMar 5, 20177 votes

Kayle KogMaw Teemo Warwick (Pre-Rework) and (rarely) Shyvana Jax Udyr build it or used to build without really having a problem. Most of these champions need Attack Speed to work, deal a hell lot of Magic Damage no matter what they build, and some have Auto-Attack resets, which translates to "On-Hit Abusers". Also, Magic Penetration is more powerful than you think, especially when you take into account that a squishy has 30 base MR.

I don't say that Wit's End is good, i say that you should actually consider in kit synergies a bit more, especially when it is about a niche item.

MuffledGarbageMar 5, 20171 votes

The only champ there that would use item 3091 on a regular everygame basis is KogMaw due to his builds usually looking around using on-hit Items.

Kayle would only build item 3091 against a full AP team

Teemo see kayle

Warwick My personal experience is that no warwick on a casual basis will build item 3091 because if they want Magic resist they have item 3065 to help their sustain, item 3814 because of the broken spellshield and extra AD+ lethality, or item 3083 because of the health being better to stack than the Magic resist that also has to be built up.

Shyvana If Shyv builds item 3091 she won't be tanky enough to make a dive into an enemy team and she will be forced to sell it in the lategame which will lose her valuable gold. In addition Shyv would gain more damage from item 3153 and would gain more effective health due to the lifesteal. Most shyv builds include item 3748 because it synergizes with her ability to deal damage and it helps her be relevant damage-wise while building very tanky.

Shyv needs health more-so than she needs MR because of her passive stacking on free Armor and Magic resist.

Jax Jax is in a similar stretch to shyv in that, he won't gain the amount of either attack stats to be a threat early on( assuming this is after building item 3078 and item 3146 ) or he won't gain the amount of defensive stats later in the game( assuming that he's building item 3742 item 3071 type items)

I'll concede a larger possibility of Udyr taking item 3091 on a regular basis due to the second passive helping him steal MR and boosting his damage however Udyr could be more effective via item 3153 from the passive and active giving him TWO stats that he synergizes with versus ONE from

From what we can derive from the OP we can tell that they are tired of item 3091 being outclassed by other items that do it's job better.

What is item 3091 's job you ask?

it is supposed to be a defensive item that gives a slight offensive boost in an unorthodox way that will synergize with champions that like to use on-hit effects.

It most definitely synergizes with some champs that use on-hit effects but it does not do so on the tankier champs that the OP refers to.

The odds are more likely that the OP is talking about champs that could use item 3091 could instead just take item 3068 or item 3025 and be MORE effective and efficient than taking

AirKingNeoMar 5, 20171 votes

Kayle doesn't build it vs full AP. She builds it vs AP laner.

RatbertMar 5, 20171 votes

IDK wits is probably the strongest mr item and "mrpen" item there is at max stacks with 65 mr and 25 mr reduction. It's already worth it on kayle and teemo if there's a mage on each team.

Irelia BotMar 5, 20171 votes

But so few camp can even partly justify buying it in it's current state in large part due to the MR shred being effectively a minimally utilized stat.

MuffledGarbageMar 5, 20171 votes

item 3153 is more effective in a majority of situations than item 3091 will be in the same situations.

Example: I am playing midlane as Kayle against an Akali so if I take item 3091 I will have to hit ahri 5 times(all while dodging skillshots) in order to stack the item properly.

In order to get the full use out of the Item's stats I have to stack the second passive which assuming my only other item is item 3115 it will take a sizable amount of time to stack all 5 hits

By the time I've gotten 3 stacks of the passive the enemy Ahri has been chunked low enough to feel scared and ran away OR I've gotten hit by Ahri Q and W and end up taking as much damage as I dish out roughly

the same exact situation Ahri would have only needed to take about 2 hits from me if I had built item 3153

and if I get hit by Ahri Q and W then I can heal back up super fast thanks to the lifesteal

ChaddyFantomeMar 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Let's pick apart WHY wit's end is so bad so you can understand

+40% attack speed +40 magic resist

Basic attacks deal 40 magic damage on hit

Basic attacks steal 5 magic resist. The steal can stack 5 times

At first glance looking at wit's end you can see a large problem with it.

It's niche of stealing magic resist isn't powerful enough for the ranged adc's who would use it against mages.

the item isn't meant for them nor is the ranged adc intended to be using it against mages, let alone have an item specifically designed to let them do so.

It wouldn't be built by any character who synergizes well because of the more powerful options. Examples of on-hit abusers include and

inform me pls of a better on hit magic resist based item.

Let's just say for example I was playing in the toplane against an

If decides to make his first buy a because of jax's ultimate passive doing a lot of magic damage... he won't be able to deal enough damage to heal back the damage jax deals in a long-term fight AND I will either have built and to finish or will have started on to finish

Your entire scenario is dumb because why the hell would you get it for such a dumb reason?

You get Wits End if YOU have on hit magic damage.

In that situation the MR doesn't help in the least.

No shit, you are fabricating a shitty example/scenario. Getting Wits End on Olaf, let alone for the dumb reason that Jax has SOME magic damage on his Ult is stupid in of itself, regardless of you using Wits end or any other MR item to begin with.

I can see that doesn't synergize very well with however likes to autoattack a lot.

So even tho you know you are buyign an item that doesnt benefit you for a scenario you know the item wont help you, you blame the item and not your poor decision making?

Wit's end doesn't succeed in the purpose of being a good item for long term fights. We can tell that it's purpose is along those lines because we need to stack the passive with autoattacks.

Try using it against primarily magic damage threats on champions who themselves have magic dps instead of using it on a champion an AD champ to beat another AD champ next time.

Like, the rest of your post isn't even worth reading with such a garbage foundation. I mean christ, your argument here is as bad as saying triforce is a bad item because if i build it on Janna it doesn't let me have better in fight potency to justify getting it.

MuffledGarbageMar 5, 20171 votes

Response to 1. did you know that item 3071 wasn't meant as an adc or assassin item? how about item 3142 or item 3147 or even item 3814 ?

Items aren't made for a singular specific champ and they most definitely will never BE made for specific champs (unless that Item is a part of their passive such as Viktor or Kalista )

A better effective on hit Item is item 3153 because it does everything that someone who would buy item 3091 would want...

it does %current health damage via the passive making it relevant against most ANYONE who is fought, it gives AD, and it gives lifesteal.

Compared to item 3091 which gives 40 MR, 40% attack speed, Flat 40 magic damage on hit and steals 5 MR from an enemy on hit which stacks 5 times(equaling to 25 MR stolen)

It's obvious that if I take two Kayle s and pit them against each-other with one building only item 3091 and the other only building item 3153 , The Kayle that has will beat the kayle every time due to the superior stats.

The only downside of item 3153 against item 3091 is that is a cheap 2500 gold while is 3400

Also when you argue for something there's a reason you set an example that's biased in your favor...

it's to get people to see your perspective via limiting their view. If you take notice, nearly every media outlet currently uses this tactic to spread fake information. That's a different topic for a different time however.

EDIT: I just realized I forgot to state that item 3153 gives more effective health than item 3091 which is the deciding factor of which makes it better

SpecterVonBarenMar 5, 20171 votes

Bork does CURRENT health damage, not max health. It's better against high health targets because of this.

MuffledGarbageMar 5, 20171 votes

still more effective in every way than item 3091 in terms of survivability for damage

Irelia BotMar 5, 20171 votes

You are clueless as to how nice getting some mixed in magic damage against champs like Nasus or Malphite can be.

MuffledGarbageMar 5, 20171 votes

Still doesn't make item 3091 better than item 3153 for taking down nasus or malphite

Irelia BotMar 5, 20171 votes

You weren't playing in season 2 were you.

MuffledGarbageMar 5, 20171 votes

we can debate on whatever season was the best which would be a tad too off-topic from the OP that I'd like to go...

or we can debate on whether item 3091 is better/worse than item 3153 which I'd prefer due to the OP being more related to this debate...

so whatever choice you'd want to make I'll be here

Irelia BotMar 5, 20171 votes

BotRK replaced Madred's bloodrazor

It is not the replacement of wit's end.

MuffledGarbageMar 5, 20171 votes

I agree with you heavily there.

I still wish I saw more people in game actually build item 3091 though

Irelia BotMar 5, 20171 votes

They would if there was any reason to.

But there is not any reason to in it's current state.

Garlic ButterAug 13, 20171 votes

So, some things you failed to realize here, Wits end is an item for magic damage DEALERS, the ziggs building wits end would DECIMATE your ashe totally, and completely, your janna as well. The "gain" you get from it is to keep it competitive, its actualy purpose is LOWERING MR, (as of my posting this now everyone gets scaling MR per level rendering this item weaker except on, teemo, lulu, jax, kayle, shyv, udyr(certain styles), on hit kog, who use it for the damage boos anyway).

Anyone who builds gunblade synergizes well with this(this increases all magic damage you deal by 24-27% vs the targets you are building it for anyway) as the on hit damage from this HEALS YOU. This on hit damage is amped by amumu passive as well (converting 10% of it to true damage(aditionally it is hitting for 10% + 27% more damage as before that 10% bonus true damage).

This is a HYBRID item meant for hybrid damage champions (especially effective on corki, but lets not mention him since no one would ever build this on corki), however its primary purpose is NOT for the actual champion building it, but rather for the debuff it applies on enemies, this will shred MOST carries to close to 0 MR enabling your artillery mage or high base damage magic tanks (amumu, zac, etc) to deal massively increased damage while staying safe. Veigar, Shyvana, Jax, Teemo, Cassiopiea, Singe, Amumu, Zac, Annie, Lulu, Kogmaw, Kayle, etc all benefit tremendously just from the debuf being supplied by another team mate (much how black cleaver isn't FOR YOU but for your TEAM's damage), VERY few items grant reasonable amounts of mr, and all the champions that would build this item either deal amazing sustained on hit damage (dps) or deal with a lot of shred/on hit procs (re:fizz, victor have interesting synergy with this item as a third or 4th build).

Special mention goes to varus who greatly appreciates building this item in a Rannuan's build. Also anyone building Hurricane may want this item anyway (and it becomes god tier when synergized with the on hit build: item 3085 item 3146 item 3153 item 3091 item 3124 , commonly built by kayle, lulu, kog, jax, etc)

Interestingly, unlike most items in the game item 3091 is only inneffective against less than 10 champions(cough cough, galio, kassadin) in the game (most items are ineffective against 34+ champions), its also one of only 4 or 5 items that provide both defensive utility and offensive utility. And its debuff is useful to nearly every champion in the game, except the 6 or 7 that only deal pure physical damage (riven, darius, draven, illaoi etc), and most of the champions you wouldn't find this useful against, will be banned in the ranked match you'd be playing a champion that can make use of this item anyway.

Basically the lens you are looking at "wit's end" through is flawed and fails to take into account its usefulness to people other than yourself.

Even in your example, if the JAX built the the wits end vs Olaf he would crush olaf EVEN HARDER, though unless he had a few other magic damage dealers on the team(especially a dps mage like ziggs/cass/heimer) it would seem like a bad choice as its only giving him ~48-122 extra damage per auto (keep in mind it increases his attack speed 40%!) vs olaf.

Price point: Its so cheap too, its really a kit/build path synergistic ~3rd or 4th item( though if built early it will lower many champions to 0 mr or possibly lower in special circumstances) for hybrid damage dealers focused on surviving vs "dps/artillery mages" and/OR debuffing enemies to increase everyone on your teams damage. Also with the recent armor/mr changes across items (since this post was originally made) wits end is much more powerful on a mixed damage build (which counters most all tanks and vanguards, all carries, and some bruisers and many supports), though hurricane becomes a mandatory item after if you are ranged and team fighting (as the damage amp is way to powerful and takes awhile to stack if you dont have, to not build another cheap item). Keep in mind this is FULLY STACKED in less than 2 seconds on the champions its meant for (all whom have more than 2 attacks per second available in their kit/normal build paths), especially in the ranged case/lulu (the damage amp from help pix/passive + W on whomever has this becomes truly insane).

TL;DR: It is PERFECTLY balanced and Itemized, no changes can, or should be made to it (unless passive mr increases dramatically in the new runes system, especially due to the remove of most sources of spell penetration coming with it!).

Sidenote: In the above example of ashe..... her Q would proc this on each instance of auto attack wouldn't it? making this deal FOUR TIMES damage on attack, quite eclipsing ALL of ziggs damage as all of his damage is easily avoided by ashe except his AA passive. (ashe has some very unique interesting interactions with keystones and masteries/item effects with her kit), additionally the JANNA could build it and just devastate both braum and ziggs, aditionally the damage amp on her ult would allow her to most likely AA, QAA, ULT, AA and zigs (48+48x4 + 48 + 316 + janna amp/aas) would definitely be dead with almost no effort, aditionally the bonus MR would reduce ziggs dps by 17-24% (depending on his runes currently), since ziggs is a dps mage this neuters his effective damage considerably as he relies on lots of repitition/sucessfull skill shots which janna can negate with shield or ashe just move half a unit to avoid). That example is in a rather vaccuum of you never fighting anyone but ziggs and braum though (additionally ashe building it would also amp janna's damage tremendously, and since she would have janna shield for an AD amp...yes this might actually be the best item in that situation actually given bot lane ziggs rune choices will likely include armor but not mr (and braum gives a LOAD of armor with W but paltry mr in a bot lane build usually!). Basically I can't find any logical points in your argument that actually factor relevant in game information/choices.

Please elaborate without champion examples why you still think this item is bad, to show you actually know how item mechanics and interactions work in league of legends (aka that you understand the material).

Chaos Milk TeaMar 4, 20172 votes

Wit's end doesn't work against mages because it has to stack by autos and most mages burst from a distance.

It's not quite good enough to be an mpen item on ap auto dps champions like Teemo and Kayle. You'd think it would be good, but the actual additional damage doesn't do much and the Mr is not much good without hp.

It almost works on auto dps tanks like shyvana who stack on hit effects, but its better to buy Bork and visage separately.

It's not properly serving or countering anyone.

SpecterVonBarenMar 5, 20171 votes

I wish they'd reduce the on hit damage and give it health so it could be a proper tank item for people like Nautilus who want to not suffer having people walk out of his autos.

Irelia BotMar 5, 20171 votes

You do understand that auto attacks on a minion at least use to increase the owners MR.

It wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue as Fervor was when it stacked from attacking minions.

RebonackMar 5, 20172 votes

The only problem with Wit's is that most champs have trouble justifying the MR stealing. That and the shitty build path.

It is absolutely Core on Koggers, but that's only because there is literally no one else in the game packing more base OnHit magic damage than him.

Change the build to item 1057 item 1043 and remove the MR stealing. Possibly reduce the combine cost a bit. Then let it combine with item 2053 to create a new item. Give it 4% max HP OnHit damage along with some level of OnHit healing. Now you've got a winner.