Corki gets a buff and starts showing up

Oakleaf Ranger·Jul 4, 2017·64 votes·3,613 views

in mid lane once again.

WHAT A SURPRISE

> We see an opportunity to help him out: we like him as a magic-damage option for the bottom lane marksman role. These changes are designed to reinforce that by making him a more palatable pick in bot lane, while further pushing his magic-damage niche

Riot buffed him so that he would see play bot lane again but instead is being played mid while his bot lane pick rate is the lowest of all the ADCs. Riot wanted to make a unique ADC who dealt magic damage but instead gave him the tools to be a mid laner instead. I feel Riot really dropped the ball with Corki when they tried to make his niche as an ADC magic damage dealer unique. If they really want to solidify his role in bot lane they need to change his package in a way that doesn't make him an excellent roamer when in a solo lane but pretty weak for an ADC. Honestly I think the package should be scraped in a favor of a different passive.

Edit: this blew up way more than I expected, hope someone at riot sees this.

75 Comments

EedatJul 4, 201759 votes

Why is Corki being a mid laner a bad thing exactly?

Variks the LoyalJul 4, 201712 votes

Because a Marksman is already required in bot lane, putting an extra one on another part of the map drowns out other class options.

They're perfectly fine in niche strategies, like hard-tower pushing comps, but there needs to be a tradeoff. Historically, when Marksmen like Varus are played mid, the team gives up the roaming power of an Assassin or Mage for higher pushing power. With Corki, you don't need to make that tradeoff.

Big LincolnJul 4, 201711 votes

corki has no crowd control whatsoever, unlike mages

undesirable teamJul 4, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPILH4G5,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-04T04:11:51.024+0000)

corki has no crowd control whatsoever, unlike mages

have u seen his package slow? insane bro

Big LincolnJul 4, 201715 votes

that's like what, every five minutes?

yesnobananaJul 4, 20174 votes

dEaTH iS ThE BEst cC

EedatJul 4, 201742 votes

But he's for sure a unique marksmen. I dont see a problem with him mid

nice tableJul 4, 20171 votes

you also don't see a problem with mf support, quinn top, graves jungle and ezreal mid till team comps have 5 adcs in em again.

MarshbouyJul 4, 201718 votes

Nice strawman A squishy burst/DPS champion in mid lane shouldn't be a problem. Mid lane is already full of burst and DPS champions.

you also don't see a problem with mf support, quinn top, graves jungle and ezreal mid till team comps have 5 adcs in em again.

This is the strawman. Edat wants a very rarely played marksman switching to a unique role, not an ADC takeover of the game.

nice tableJul 4, 20171 votes

graves and quinn are also very unique and now rarely played so we should probably also do that :^)

ElikainJul 4, 20178 votes

Graves isn't rarely played. He's pretty solid in the jungle but not too popular, like he used to be. Which means that he now has competition and has clear strengths and weaknesses that can be used/abused with other picks.

#Quinn is in an entirely different ballpark. She (as a Lethality user) has a rather specific kit that allows her to roam pretty freaking good but that roam only becomes available at level 6. That's pretty terrible as you can compare her to a pre-rework Warwick ganks. She literally has no power to gank before that. That's too late and then she gets access to her only utility ult, which puts her so far behind everyone if she never managed to secure a lead for herself or for one of her teammates.

Her jungle is pretty solid thanks to her kit but it still is mostly single target while right now, early game junglers and AoE clearing is all the rage in the meta. Not to mention that Lethality right now is not what it used to be and that stacking it requires gold, which without proper ganks, you have to commit to farming the jungle pretty feverishly. In the end, your power level isn't even close to that Yi who could do more with less time and is more reliable than her in terms of getting that kill.

Her top lane is also extremely frustrating for melee matchups but aside from poking and possibly killing someone one time, if she becomes a focus of ganks, she lost the lane already. Her ult does not help her one bit if she starts getting ganked as she can use it only out of combat

All in all, i find Quinn's Specialist role quite unique. But the fact is that her kit is all over the place and is trying to fill 3 roles at once, without having a clear strength in mind outside of "i can chase people really good". This means that Quinn often is either in a shitty position for any kind of play or she's too good because one item pushes her over the edge and becomes a premiere assassin with no counterplay.

Chasing people is only good if you can get those kills, being able to chase and almost never find an opportunity for a kill is bad. Likewise, her premier mobility could be good if she could escape narrow situations, which again she can't do as it's an ability that can only be used out of combat.

LimrickJul 4, 20171 votes

Quinn is the only true ranged AD assassin and that's how it should stay. Don't care where she ends up, as long as that is her niche.

KoKobotoJul 5, 20171 votes

I'd say watch what you're asking for. It's one thing to be a ranged AD assassin and another to be a ranged AD assassin whose damage comes from auto attacks. For the most part, a ranged assassin shouldn't be a thing and only wounds up in unhealthy gameplay.

The strengths of assasssins are mobility and high single target damage. The trade off with this in safety and only being able to get the most outta there damage on one target. They also have counterplay and stuff.

Vayne is probably the only "healthy" example of a ranged AD assassin we have. There was a time when Vayne was pretty ridiculous (her Q damage) but for the most part she is fair to play against. Normal range, no long range abilities, can play around her E.

Quinn in her current iteration is pretty cancer and feels bad to play against. Quinn flies around from nowhere and one shots you during the lethality meta and even know if ahead enough. That is pretty much all there is too it.

ElikainJul 5, 20172 votes

She isn't an Assassin though. She's a Specialist and she has traits of an Assassin, Diver and a Marksman. The whole point is that she isn't good at anything, she's rather average or worse. The only way she is better at any of those roles is if the items she builds are a superb combination of stats, which Quinn (as well as other abusers) had their fill and then dropped out once the items have been nerfed.

Quinn used to be an Assassin when Lethality and her kit was stronger. That's no longer the case, for both things. Her kit is decent in the jungle but not for much else or with a really good early game. If you fall behind, her kit just doesn't make up for anything.

Quinn used to be a Diver, with Youmuu's + BC + Sterak's. All of the items have been nerfed so this isn't viable on her (to survive a lot of damage).

Marksman role was something that was good for her when she was changed in the Marksmen update and ever since then, she has been targeted for nerfs that reduced extra power in her kit that made her a lot stronger in the jungle, top and mid, for the sake of her bot lane experience.

And here lies the problem: 3 of her roles can't be viable at the same time as they build differently. Marksman wants crit, AS, raw AD. Assassin wants AD and Lethality, Top wants BC, Death's Dance. So you have to have a good base role to go from, not just be somewhat viable in all 3 and rely so much on which current item combination is the strongest to use in order for her to be effective in that particular role.

KoKobotoJul 4, 20171 votes

As long as Quinn is based around auto attacks lethality will always be cancerous on her in her current form. Right now there absolutely no strategic thought behind Quinn's ultimate aside from "Hey this is basically a teleport without cooldown", at least in comparison to her old ultimate.

Quinn's specialist role is not unique and her new ultimate is not unique and all. It's a dull low interactive ability that is as most Quinn mains would call a Taxi. Old Quinn was unique, new Quinn not nearly as so.

ElikainJul 5, 20171 votes

Old Quinn embodied the same traits of a ranged Assassin (even stronger than now) you already don't like. Valor wasn't anything better except that you could chase someone down, attach to them like a leech and claw them to death.

This version of Quinn is a lot more lenient (as Valor is just means of catching up to a target, not a transformation that kills them) but this is where it's still lacking. Quinn trades to get her super mobility for a lot less reliable damage so she is either shit or super good, depending how fast you can burst people down from her abilities, combo and range.

This is why her Lethality is bad for her currently. But when Lethality was super good from a single item purchase, this is where she shined the best (not healthy). Since she isn't Zed and Talon, one Lethality item won't get her anywhere closer to bursting people down. But when she is, that isn't a healthy playstyle, considering her brief CC kit that can keep a target down for those few moments of free damage.

About her Specialist role, i meant that this looks like a best fit for her. Not that she's somehow special and unique because she's a Specialist. She isn't the first specialist and she sure won't be the last. But even so, being a Specialist should mean that you specialize in something. Not that you're simply in the Specialist role because you have 3 roles mashed together into a single champion and not a single one synergizing with each other. The role best suited for Quinn is always going to be the role that has the best stats to offer.

HotS, in my opinion, nails the Specialist role. As HotS's gameplay is a lot different than League's, their Specialists can actually specialize into certain aspects of their kit that fit the best to what your team lacks. They can either emphasize a strength of your team, exploit a weakness of the enemy team or spec into something your team needs to keep the enemy team occupied for longer.

KoKobotoJul 5, 20171 votes

Nah old Quinn is not similar at all when it comes to assassination patterns when compared to new Quinn. First off playing as Valor means you're melee and I'm not gonna bother talking about how great the difference is between an melee champion assassinating you and a ranged champion because quite frankly it should be obvious. So I will always confidently say that old Quinn did not embody similar assassination patterns in comparison to new Quinn. Melee vs range difference is just too huge to make that comparison.

This version of Quinn is a lot more lenient (as Valor is just means of catching up to a target, not a transformation that kills them) but this is where it's still lacking. Quinn trades to get her super mobility for a lot less reliable damage so she is either shit or super good, depending how fast you can burst people down from her abilities, combo and range.

This is why her Lethality is bad for her currently. But when Lethality was super good from a single item purchase, this is where she shined the best (not healthy). Since she isn't Zed and Talon, one Lethality item won't get her anywhere closer to bursting people down. But when she is, that isn't a healthy playstyle, considering her brief CC kit that can keep a target down for those few moments of free damage.

Yeah I can even accept that Quinn roaming around and instagibbing people with unavoidable damage at mach 7 is a strength because it shouldn't even be in the game. It's cancer that feels more like "why the hell is this in the game" over "Oh this person is just playing to their champions strengths".

Right now Quinn specializes in being everywhere whenever she wants to. However this isn't fun, this isn't strategic, healthy, and frankly doesn't feel that special. This should not be her specialty. I really don't care about this though as long as they revert her or rework her so that Valor is more integrated into her kit and not just a taxi. I'm not entirely sure about this but I think she is on the VGU list. So yeah I agree that specialist would be the best category to rework her under. Her current specialty is roaming and that's just shitty.

Old Quinn already had a strong niche in being a marksmen that specialized in killing other marksmen. If old Quinn could be considered specialist than I'm fine with that as well.

MarshbouyJul 4, 20174 votes

They have already been in the spotlight. I think you are confusing "viable in role" with "dominating in role" preseason 6 had many different ADCs "dominating in role". What people want with Corki is "viable in role".

ElikainJul 4, 20171 votes

Team comps have never had 5 Marksmen in them, even if all of them could go on each position separately.

Corki isn't a roaming Marksman. So yes, you are giving up the power on an Assassin or a burst Mage if he's going mid. Furthermore, Assassins are still not in the meta, never mind that occasional Zed in other regions. He's a long range spellcasting Marksman. He can also cut off people with his Package that provides him mobility but in order to do that, he has to go behind enemy lines to deliver it and then he's in the middle of a fight.

Blackstone01Jul 4, 20173 votes

ADCs have REALLY gotten close. But there's always the core issue that marksmen is the singular class in the game that isn't allowed to not be mandatory in every single meta since the end of season 1.

LimrickJul 4, 20171 votes

Corki isn't even really a marksman though, and he's better and healthier as a mage, so why not balance him around that?

LyndrisJul 4, 20171 votes

I actually agree, seeing him get magic damage for ad is a nice niche, but i always see him perform best with a hybrid build

Sun Wu RyuumokuJul 4, 20171 votes

Varus mid is dead... sadly

SpoofghoulJul 4, 20172 votes

That points, imho, to a different problem though

The fact that ADC is mandatory in the first place

IcyPepperJul 4, 20171 votes

Because a Marksman is already required in bot lane, putting an extra one on another part of the map drowns out other class options.

Maybe bot lane is the problem.

It's the only lane that only one class fully dominates. Hell, even the support role has more viable classes beyond simply having utility.

Teridax68Jul 5, 20171 votes

While I agree that marksmen being mandatory in bot lane isn't great, I think that's really the only issue, and allowing a class to be viable across more positions is itself fantastic. Really, what needs to happen isn't for Riot to limit marksmen to bot lane, but to allow more classes to be viable bot as well. Similarly, when some mages and tanks ended up migrating bot, the issue wasn't so much that they were invading support space, but that the support class itself cannot go anywhere other than bot lane, and needs to be viable in more positions as well.

Oakleaf RangerJul 4, 20174 votes

Its what was lost in the process of him being played in the mid lane that is bad. He went from being a magic damage ADC (really a hybrid but he did have significant amount of magic damage output) to almost being only played mid after the ADC class rework a while back. I think there is something real wrong when his performance mid ends up overshadowing his role in the bot lane.

ErockandrollJul 4, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Its what was lost in the process of him being played in the mid lane that is bad. He went from being a magic damage ADC (really a hybrid but he did have significant amount of magic damage output) to almost being only played mid after the ADC class rework a while back. I think there is something real wrong when his performance mid ends up overshadowing his role in the bot lane.

Their isn't much we can do to actually adjust his kit to work better Bot side. Without changing how his kit functions.

Also, dumb question, but are you criticizing his emphasis on magic damage. Cause while it's a unique niche, it never seems to be a niche he needs to fill. (at least in lieu of a regular ADC) But in conjunction with a regular ADC, you get a ton of DPS from multiple sources. Normally you would pick Cass or Ryze if you needed magic DPS. But that said, I don't think that his magic damage emphasis is the source of his mid lane abuse, his kit is. He's a caster ADC, so he benefits from solo lane experience, more so than his AA centric counterparts. While his "Package" gives him the most roam potential when used from mid lane.

Oakleaf RangerJul 4, 20172 votes

I'm pointing out that the rise of mid lane Corki has the created loss of a niche was only really filled by him in the bot lane. We already have magic DPS in the mid lane but now there is none (as opposed to 1 and maybe Ezreal) in the bot lane after Corki got a rework. When you have an AD top, mid and jg Corki was the go to ADC to round out the damage to avoid a full or heavy AD comp. So yah I think he needs another rework or at least undo some of his current one.

Also yes it is a dumb question and we all know who asks dumb questions. summoner 14

AMYS GRAVEJul 4, 20172 votes

There are marksmen who can, fully within the meta, play every position. Can you say that about any other class?

Top: Quinn & AD Kennen Jungle: Kindred Graves Twitch Mid: Lucian KogMaw Corki ADC: duh Sup: MissFortune

I'm all for classes being played in several lanes, but if one class can do it, then others should be able to as well. When corki and lucian are pushing mid laners out of their home with nowhere to go then there is a problem.

The only other class that can come close to lane diversity like adcs are mages if you take them as a pretty broad category.

VoraciousXJul 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There are marksmen who can, fully within the meta, play every position. Can you say that about any other class?

Top: & AD Jungle: Mid: ADC: duh Sup:

I'm all for classes being played in several lanes, but if one class can do it, then others should be able to as well. When corki and lucian are pushing mid laners out of their home with nowhere to go then there is a problem.

The only other class that can come close to lane diversity like adcs are mages if you take them as a pretty broad category.

Xayah top and mid works as well, though I dunno if top still works since her Q nerf. She probably needs to get more attack speed before she becomes relevant, which delays her essence reaver, so it might be terrible top lane now.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJul 4, 20171 votes

it still work, she's still toxic. They didn't nerf her damage.

VoraciousXJul 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPILH4G5,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2017-07-04T21:34:23.821+0000)

it still work, she's still toxic. They didn't nerf her damage.

It's not about the damage though. The fact that you can't chain your Q and your autos means you're way less likely to get a root off when you get ganked, meaning if you leave your tower you're pretty much dead unless you have vision of every possible gank angle a decent time ahead of time. The reason ADC top laners work is because they have some form of CC(or in Lucian's case a dash) to get away from ganks. Xayah's CC is situational especially now that until she gets at least one full attack speed item it's not even remotely possible to land a root if the enemy is playing smart enough.

ElikainJul 4, 20171 votes

The only thing i really hate is Miss Fortune support. I don't find her support role fun as i'd equate it to Malzahar's support days which Riot has stated that they don't support because his playstyle wasn't healthy. I would put Miss Fortune (support) in the same category as she was only viable because BC was an alternative item that at least, half of the Marksmen were replacing for their usual crit items.

Considering how MF's ult was all about that damage, she was abusing the strength of a single item and the utility it could provide in terms of AoE % armor shred, that benefited her and her (mostly) AD heavy team comps.

I don't hate her on a support position because she was strong. I hate her on a support position because the uniqueness of her playstyle and her kit was completely gone, in favor of just being a pretty face with big guns ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) and all she was was an ult bot. I'm glad that this stupid trend is now over with.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJul 4, 20171 votes

malz kit isn't healty. And riot should already have adressed his ult last year tbh.

Critmaster GarenJul 4, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Why is Corki being a mid laner a bad thing exactly?

it wasnt if marksmen werent occupying bot lane.

i dont have a problem with sharing other lanes with them, if they wouldnt spam

"lol adc 2k17" when any other type of champion is merely viable next to them like Ziggs was. increase champion diversity on bot lane, and marksmen can go into other lanes aswell.

SSJTribeJul 4, 20174 votes

"lol adc 2k17"

I don't feel like I've actually seen anyone say this seriously since like February.

Critmaster GarenJul 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I don't feel like I've actually seen anyone say this seriously since like February.

oh, ive still seen it here on the forums now and then, even now.

it wasnt even justified back then.

Blackstone01Jul 4, 20172 votes

People still say it, most sarcastically, sometimes seriously by an ADC main when they got caught out and jumped on by 3 people.

AirKingNeoJul 4, 20179 votes

Because what use is THE PACKAGE in the bot lane? Mid Corki can shove and roam to a late with the package. In the bot lane, he could only roam mid and has an opposing support who could stop his shove with pressure or waveclear on top of the ADC.

ZelorxonJul 4, 20172 votes

Dragon, gank mid, gank at enemy buff, kill in lane, you name it.

JESUSSAYSNOJul 5, 20172 votes

Compare that to: Top gank Rift herald Any enemy camp Dragon Botlane

Package is stronger mid than bot.

CraigJul 4, 20177 votes

You act like the buff made him a mid laner. He's been laning mid ever since his new passive.

DivewingJul 4, 20175 votes

To be totally honest there isn't really much wrong with Corki being mid as such.

The real issue is how simply tuning his damage type further into magic completely breaks the lane.

It just goes to show you that if damage types weren't an issue, we would just have another adc mid.

Mid lane itemisation is a total shit show compared to the wealth of options ADCs have at their disposal for any given situation (which Corki can utilise), on top of the fact that they are less mana reliant to wave-clear (barring maybe ezreal - but these can still be solved with Essence Reavers). At least compared to ap mids Buy- item 3165 -if-you-want-to-function

khorneyJul 4, 20171 votes

Yet you have no complaints about varus who can build on hit and out damage ad varu s and crit varus

Need Gold 4 TentJul 4, 20174 votes

i don't think any build can outdamage crit build on any champ, if you are comparing ad champs.

khorneyJul 4, 20171 votes

Let's see ulting you and landing a e and your dead .

Automated RivenJul 4, 20174 votes

that doesnt out dps. that out busts. A crit build may not burst as hard but it for sure out dps's it.

khorneyJul 4, 20171 votes

It does but okay . It's like kog maw. Better yet think of vayne silver bolts but better in a way

Supreme Senpai69Jul 5, 20172 votes

DPS means damage per second. Crit build does 100 DPS let's say. On hit Varus can do 90 DPS let's say. But 80 of that damage is done in 0.5s, whereas the crit damage takes the full second.

Burst does less DPS. More damage, less 'per second.'