The design direction of the experimental Riven Changes

The Sword Saint··10 votes·2,746 views

This essay is listed in my "Master List of Essay Threads" under the title "On The design direction of the experimental Riven Changes"


Let's examine what the changes are, and what they reveal about the direction they are intended to push Riven in.

First, the new resource currently named 'Edge'. Edge is similar to fury or rage in that it starts at 0, increased through aggressive play, provides benefits depending on how much you have, decays over time if you stop generating any for a while, and can be consumed to power up an ability. Riven gains 20 edge whenever she procs her passive on an enemy champion up to a maximum of 100, and edge decays by 10 per second after riven has not proc'd her passive for 10 seconds. She gains 1% damage for each 10 edge for a maximum damage bonus of 10% with a full edge bar. Casting windslash will consume all of rivens edge and will proportionally scale up windslash damage in the same manner as it used to be scaled up based on % missing hp.

On a separate note, Riven can no longer hold multiple stacks of her passive.


What does this mean for riven? What has she lost from this?

The first major effect is that riven has lost the ability to enter into a teamfight and perform a variant of the third q hydra stun windslash combo to instantly deal as much damage to a squishy out of position target as before. This is because windslash now scales with edge and such an engagement would permit time for at most 2 passive procs before the windslash if the goal was to finish the combo while the enemy is cc'd or before riven can be peeled. This would provide 40 edge from an assumed 0 to start as riven cannot prepare edge in the same way other champions can prepare fury due to edge only being generated by procing rivens passive on enemy champions.

Additionally, rivens ability to quickly double cast ult to snipe a low hp enemy under tower or similar has been greatly reduced as without edge her windslash will always do the minimum damage - that is to say the damage that windslash wold do to a max hp enemy on live.

Finally, because riven can no longer gain multiple stacks of her passive riven loses the ability to stick around after her spell rotation is down and get any significant extra damage off on an enemy who is fleeing for their live by using up leftover passive stacks. This significantly weakens rivens ability to finish off enemies at very low levels (1-3). This does not otherwise impact riven's damage as there are no common combos that use multiple auto attacks in a row while there are still spells ready to be used, meaning that every auto weaved into a combo will still be empowered by rivens passive. A full basic combo that weaves an auto in after every spell will generate exactly enough edge to fill the bar from 0 to max.


What does riven gain from this?

Her resource bar is no longer empty so that's neat.

While her windslash has become a little more difficult to use at full power, it's damage will be more consistent across targets as damage dealt will be based on how much edge riven has prepared which is something riven has much more control over than the %hp of various enemies who might be in range of her windslash. It will damage them all equally rather than only really hurting low hp targets and tickling high hp ones.

It rewards riven with more damage than before for making multiple consecutive trades in lane to build up the edge meter. In mid to late game teamfights that last longer than a handful of seconds, she will do much more damage than before due to the additional 10% from edge.

In an extended skirmish or in laning phase, riven will have built up her edge meter to max and could thusly cast windslash more freely at any time during the battle without losing damage the way she would have before by casting it when the target was not low hp. This is important because it allows riven to have an easier time against champions who could easily dodge, block, or otherwise mitigate windslash due to knowing to expect it when they get low (fizz, elise, vlad, yi, garen, fiora, braum, yasuo all come to mind immediately).

It allows riven to build slightly tankier while still dealing the same damage due to receiving 10% bonus damage from max edge meter.

With edge meter built up, the persistent bonus damage will make it easier to cs (especially under tower) since it will stick around as long as you have edge meter unlike passive charges which each only help get 1 cs before being consumed.


What do these changes show about what riot wants out of riven?

They decided to trim some of the power she didn't need (some super early game kill potential, some 'sniping' kill potential, some 'show up to the fight late and clean up just by double casting ult' potential). In exchange they gave her a resource to manage that will allow her to deal more damage overall and specifically more consistent windslash damage as long as she actually participates in a fight in a meaningful way.

The edge meter will give riven players more satisfying windows of power and provide clarity to enemy players on when riven is strong similarly to how renekton and tryndamere's resources function.

This is a powershift for riven, taking some of her early game kill potential and mid game 'ks'ing power' and trading it for increased overall damage and more control over the power and timing of when to use windslash in a duel or team fight. It also adds a bit of clarity with the resource bar which can give riven and enemy players better insight into her windows of power.

59 Comments

Athenes Lulu17 votes

I think the "rework" forces Riven to think and play smarter, instead of just mashing buttons willy-nilly.

Jacknife6 votes

Less snowball potential in the early game and more power shifted to dueling and teamfights instead of assassinating, I like it. Very well thought out, but I wonder if riven will end up overpowered without some small nerfs to her other abilities to compensate for the situational 10% increase, as her combos or how she uses her abilities other than windslash haven't really changed.

ProfDrDeath5 votes

On the other hand, she now cannot stack her passive - meaning, making her waste a passive proc by forcing her to use Q or E to close the gap will hurt her more than before in the damage department.

Mirage Night1 votes

True. So long as the distance to gap close requires 2 ability casts. 1 or less she is going to be just as strong and get stronger. So positioning against her and for her are much more meaning full.

yay nibbers2 votes

The 10% damage is to compensate for the increased dueling/trading difficulty due to her passive no longer stacking though. She also loses that extra damage as soon as she casts her Wind Slash.

insaiyanbacca4 votes

TL:DR riven mains will become the truly "edgiest" mains in league

stabby himiko1 votes

I found the 'Edge' Joke in this Riven post. Next post

1000angrybees3 votes

I like that she doesn't have a ridiculous AOE execute. She actually has to work a bit for that max damage now.

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

{quoted}

I like that she doesn't have a ridiculous AOE execute. She actually has to work a bit for that max damage now.

She now has a resource to manage in order to get max value. And some metasheeps hate mechonics like dis. So they will drop Riven and look for another freeelo champion with ez management.

And that's how meta cycles around.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

{quoted}

I like that she doesn't have a ridiculous AOE execute. She actually has to work a bit for that max damage now.

Thank Based Riot, this pissed me off more than anything that I hate about Riven. I REALLY like these 'Edge' mechanics now, they basically want Riven to duel for prolonged periods or repeatedly retreat and re-engage. Tanks will now have a more realistic chance against her as they'll no longer need to fear for their lives if they get to half health, and no more ridiculously overpowered clean-ups.

Blade of Justic2 votes

Agreed.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

So, she will be less of an instaburst assassin and become more oriented towards sustained fights? Good.

She'll possibly need a few base stat adjustments to go along with this, or have Valor's shield duration scale with the abilities rank a bit, but the direction is really what she needs.

RastaBrotha2 votes

As a Riven main (I know, I know) I am really looking forward to these changes and the depth it will give her

People keep saying that she's easy to play but hard to master, which I don't completely agree with, but these changes will hopefully empower just that (cause rn she does feel like a faceroll champ)

Fury is a mechanic I really like anyways on shyv and crocodile man and seeing Riven slowly leave the meta will make her all mine <3 #noweaboo And I also enjoy playing off meta champs

I also wouldn't mind a mild nerf to her stats to uh.. Idk I think it would be appropriate

yay nibbers1 votes

Overall the changes are really cool. I feel like they could make her Edge just a bit easier to stack though. Maybe 25 or 33 (probably a bit much at 33) per passive proc rather than 20 because now she must get an AA in between each Q cast as well as her W and E to get full ult damage, meaning most of the time she's going to need at least two spell rotations to get full Edge. Unless that's intended.

RastaBrotha1 votes

I hope its intended and I'm also hoping they will reduce the amount of edge you get per passive AA -I'm thinking maybe 5-8 egde and 3 on minions etc but have her passive then stack twice or smth

Zaghyr2 votes

The change does a lot of things.

  1. It almost entirely removes assassin riven. Note i said ALMOST. Wind slash is still going to be a great execute tool because by the time the enemy is low health you will have several edge stacks to work with.
  2. It makes riven harder to play and a little easier to play against. Rivens will now have to micro manage her passive and make more decisions about what they can do with the bonus damage, and when it is best to use their abilities. Enemies will also know when will try to go in and know her moments of weakness.
  3. This will push her more into the sustained combo fighter that she was designed to be. Rivens will be rewarded to longer skirmishes, proper comboing, and sticking to a fight longer, instead of assassinating and running.
  4. This gives more build and play options. With the 10% damage bonus and wind slash change, Riven can afford to build much tankier and effectively play as a bruiser. Wind slash can also be used at the beginning of a fight, or if it used as an execute, it can still nuke whoever it hits regardless of their hp.

Overall I like the changes, especially after actually testing it. There some things i would change, such as letting you stack edge on minions for a reduced cost and duration, or allowing full stacks on large monster, because with this change, jungle riven will no longer exist. The changes bring more strengths and weaknesses, more counterplay, and just straight up offers more options. Interested to see how this will develop.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Rickless was asked about edge on large monsters in a tweet and said that he hadn't thought of that, but that these are only experimental changes and it doesn't make sense to polish up all the little details and nuances like that until they decide if this direction is even worth going in.

From the tone of it, it's certainty possible that you might be able to generate edge from large monsters if this goes live.

DrNova1 votes

Well written

just a memory1 votes

Riven needed the passive nerf. However, perhaps Riven should get increased passive stack capacity at levels 6 and 11.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Honestly as much as I balked at it initially, after thinking about it and realizing that the situation never really occurs that you auto twice mid combo without a spell between, I come to the conclusion that the multiple procs only really exist to chase someone down and smack them a few times long after your actual combo is over. If they were going to trim some power to shift it around, it seems like a good place to start.

JedenVojak1 votes

It looks like she's mostly the same except that they deleted windslash from her kit, and she no longer gets stacks of her passive anymore. She's probably gonna need some pretty huge buffs if this goes live.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Her windslash does 100% of the max damage it used to do on low hp targets if you have max edge, and it does it to everyone it hits regardless of their % hp. It's far from deleted unless you only ever used it to ks low enemies with. Only having one stack should never realistically ever impact your damage in a trade or all in unless you for some reason were using more than one auto attack in between spells.

HopFrogger1 votes

No TL;DR? :(

Spicy Rice1 votes

It isn't that hard to read, or even skim

kJs3 votes

Gave Riven a resource that players have to manage but will, apparently give her more damage over the course of the match, more than before. Having this resource limits Riven's AA power because she can only proc it once per ability cast and once her combo is finished she can't just finish people off with her AAs anymore. The most noticeable thing about this change is that the visible resource makes sure that everyone else in the enemy team knows when she will be strong, as in bait out her abilities and engage her when she is on low Edge. Edge boosts Riven's damage by a % per Edge. The ultimate change also means she can't clean up as well but this also means that her ultimate can deal its maximum damage no matter how much health her target has, so opponents don't just run away just because they are low health, you can surprise people with it.

TL:DR nerfed Riven's (very) early game kill potential but gives her more consistent damage.

Sasogwa1 votes

I kinda fear this will put her in a stronger state in lane and weaker in teamfights, from what I understood of the edge mechanic. And tbh, I'm really not sure I want Riven to be a stronger laner than she is now.

Mirage Night1 votes

She can be weaker if can force at least 2 abilities to gap close on her. In addition she cant 3 q you to pop you and auto you to death anymore.

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

I hope that I can build a bit tanky then. Because old Riven's only job was to build full dmg and sneak into enemies back line to flash+combo squishies. If she failed to do that, she died, simple. Terrible team fighter unless very fed.

I hope she can be better in team fights without flash too. But still have a bad feeling how it turns out. She is great in skirmishes though.

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

I bet whenever players see red bar Riven, they'll instantly flash in a hearthbeat no matter the cost. :D

ExileSword1 votes

what a shame making a so well designed versatile champ with a teamfight potential into a brainless trynda with a renekton early game i don't know how she can join teamfight and try to build that edge in front of 5 people with all these vaynes running around and her terrible tank stats she would be gone as fast as a sona diving an enemy team id rather prefer huge nerfs than this unneeded rework

Wînter Fox1 votes

This is only a good change if they revert all the ridiculous nerfs she got up to this point:

  • shield only lasts 0.3 seconds. Good luck surviving long enough to get passed 40 Edge

  • ult slow as molasses. You managed to survive and reach 100 Edge! Now its time for you to cast R and throw out that amazing....full damage...aoe....WIND SLA-oh everyone walked away.

  • 0 health or health regen or heals - Darius/Garen/Fiora/Renekton/Irelia will be laughing their asses off while Riven tries to join their sustained damage club with no heals.

Over the years they've taken everything away that made her a fighter and pushed her towards a strictly all or nothing champion. You can't just slap on a resource and call it a day.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Shield lasts for 1.5 seconds, though if they want to push riven to be tankier some bonus resists based on current resists (like leona) while it lasts or something similar would be appreciated.

Her ult isn't that slow, that nerf only really made it so that people on the very edge couldn't be sniped as they tried to run away and you should be using ult on the experimental riven on as many people as possible anyway due to not scaling off of how low hp they are.

Yeah some kit built sustain would be appreciated, maybe if she shields damage and the shield breaks she could get a heal.

Cloud Potato1 votes

This is overall a net gutting for Riven. She now wins slightly harder when ahead, but is significantly worse when behind or in teamfights.

When ahead in lane: Riven is even more threatening than before. With 10% more damage and overall a more potent Wind Slash (in lane it's rare to get the full execute power without wasting damage), her ability to faceroll for a kill is much higher. This is only if she has Edge already though. It does take time for Edge to generate, which is good if she's just back from buying items or something. Mostly a loss on the balance front.

When behind in lane: Like on live, there's not much Riven can do. Being completely melee means you lose automatically to anyone who can outdamage you, and her piddly little shield isn't going to save her. As such, she can't generate Edge without suffering damage, which significantly lowers her comeback potential with R. When Riven falls behind now, she will be far more likely to stay behind.

Roaming / Teamfighting: Riven won't be doing a full Broken Wings combo on any player who isn't braindead, and she can't even stack Runic Blade anymore. Also, she won't be able to stack up Edge at all unless there's some convenient minions the enemy doesn't do anything about you hitting, so say goodbye to Wind Slash doing lots of damage. Much worse off now.

The worst thing is that Riven still has minimal counterplay in her kit. Needing time to access her full power does not do much due to Edge's damage bonus being quite small overall. Wind Slash is a bit less melty at least, but this punishes a weak Riven far more than one that's ahead, who can easily afford to fight for a bit longer.

If Riven is going to be a healthy champion, she will need more changes than this.

The Sword Saint3 votes

Edge is a tuning lever. It starts out at just adding 10% because they don't want to spook people who aren't used to the idea yet, but think about it. They added a flat 10% without taking damage away from anything else. But now that edge exists (in theory, experimental, etc) they can tune her in ways like say, lowering her passive proc damage by 10% and raising her edge max bar to 20%. This would make her procs without edge to less, they would do the same at max edge, and also her abilities would do more than before at max edge so the result would be that she would be weaker then now with low edge and much stronger with full edge. And they can tweak that all they want to get the balance of 'weak damage when low on edge and lots of damage when full edge'. If they make the edge bonus significant enough, riven can afford to build tankier - how tanky depends on how much potential bonus damage edge will add.

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cloud Potato,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nP3Ln4d0,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2015-10-01T15:23:40.095+0000)

This is overall a net gutting for Riven. She now wins slightly harder when ahead, but is significantly worse when behind or in teamfights.

When ahead in lane: Riven is even more threatening than before. With 10% more damage and overall a more potent Wind Slash (in lane it's rare to get the full execute power without wasting damage), her ability to faceroll for a kill is much higher. This is only if she has Edge already though. It does take time for Edge to generate, which is good if she's just back from buying items or something. Mostly a loss on the balance front.

When behind in lane: Like on live, there's not much Riven can do. Being completely melee means you lose automatically to anyone who can outdamage you, and her piddly little shield isn't going to save her. As such, she can't generate Edge without suffering damage, which significantly lowers her comeback potential with R. When Riven falls behind now, she will be far more likely to stay behind.

Roaming / Teamfighting: Riven won't be doing a full Broken Wings combo on any player who isn't braindead, and she can't even stack Runic Blade anymore. Also, she won't be able to stack up Edge at all unless there's some convenient minions the enemy doesn't do anything about you hitting, so say goodbye to Wind Slash doing lots of damage. Much worse off now.

The worst thing is that Riven still has minimal counterplay in her kit. Needing time to access her full power does not do much due to Edge's damage bonus being quite small overall. Wind Slash is a bit less melty at least, but this punishes a weak Riven far more than one that's ahead, who can easily afford to fight for a bit longer.

If Riven is going to be a healthy champion, she will need more changes than this.

Minimal counterplay? Care to elaborate?

Cloud Potato2 votes

Basic attacks are targeted, Q and W are both instant AoE, and R is a wave projectile. If you have to be in melee range to fight Riven, her damage is unavoidable, since the only way to avoid her abilities is to stay out of range. R can hit beyond melee range, but it can be dodged, but usually only with a mobility ability/flash.

The result of this is that if you can't outdamage Riven, she will kill you, because there is no way to avoid her damage.

BastionKross1 votes

Did Riot do anything to her ability to animation cancel?

The Sword Saint1 votes

No.

BastionKross1 votes

Damn.

The Sword Saint1 votes

If they remove animation canceling they will have to massively buff her as compensation. I don't think most people want that, especially because it also lowers her skill ceiling.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

You have clearly never seen this video then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvNFvLdWxT0

The Sword Saint1 votes

Not sure what your point is, that was a bug where it auto animation canceled. It's still animation canceling.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

The point was Riot has previously attempted a change that would speed up the animation to the point that auto-cancelling was impossible because the animation itself ended before you could cancel it (or, layman's terms, instant Q doesn't need to be interrupted) it was however pulled because this would have been an apparently unnecessary buff.

The Sword Saint1 votes

What you're saying has no relevance to the conversation you replied to. Literally none. In no way does 'making it auto cancel is a buff' have anything to do with 'removing the ability to cancel is a massive nerf' unless you assume that the way that they make it impossible to cancel is to somehow make it super easy to cancel.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

I'm saying removing auto cancelling would be a buff in the above scenario, but in the reverse where they kept the animation the same it would be a nerf. However, I really doubt Riot would do the latter without the former (remove cancelling without some form of compensation to the higher skillcap players or speeding up the animation to the point you can't cancel it because by the time you would it already finished.)

The Sword Saint1 votes

If that's what you were getting at then we've come full circle because that's what I was saying in the first place: riot wouldn't remove animation canceling unless they buffed in some comparable way - auto canceling would be fine for that.

stealthfox941 votes

Riven rework???

The Sword Saint2 votes

There are a set of changes up on the pbe that a rioter tweeter were experimental. This post covers what those changes are and how they impact riven.

SCSU Genius1 votes

I think the Edge change was a good way to change how Riven fights champions. Instead of removing animation cancelling or destroying her kit entirely to remove the ridiculous strength she has from players exploiting a bug to deal tons of nearly unstoppable damage in a short time, Riot has provided a means to deal that same damage IF Rivens are willing to stay and fight for it, giving other laners counterplay to her kit. Instead of all of it happening within 3 seconds because of the damage being available instantly its now a buildup. Then the ultimate that used to make you cry as soon as you had less than 45% now has to have stacks built up to be able to execute people at 25-45% hp especially early game post-6. As far as I understand it, Riot found a way to keep Riven's current kit but at the same time reduce the "OMG NO COUNTERPLAY" factor of her gameplay. She now is more focused on fighting you consistently rather than 100-0 in under 2 seconds or only fighting when Q is up. Good Riven players can probably still can do that, but it provides more ways of playing her, and less overall strength without staying in the fight. Feel free to offer feedback on this view, but I think I understand it properly.

ScoBooom1 votes

TAKE YOUR HANDS OFF MY RIVEN!!!!! Take a look at Poppy, Yorick, Galio, Taric Quinn, Zac, etc. Please leave her alone.

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