Their entire existence is a two step process
You either kite these champions to death or run away entirely. There is no outplaying their ults if you are in melee range, you just stat check each other in this scenario. I want to make it clear that I'm not calling for nerfs, just pointing out that this concept is stupid
Ahristocats4 votesexcept that even if you get close to darius, he can't press R instantly unless he wants to deal 100 damage instead of 1000
LostFr0st1 votesOf course he can :^) Darius is OP.
They're probably not taking into account that their Yi tried to 1v1 him from a flank and procced his passive.
LostFr0st3 votes
- Can they get in range of you?
It's actually surprisingly hard to get past step 1 while playing them. The enemy has to misplay.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesIt's actually surprisingly hard to get past step 1 while playing them. The enemy has to misplay.
Except it's sad how Cho is actually in that catagory, considering he's got way too much utility and tankstats to be a balanced juggernaut.
LostFr0st1 votesI think people need to respect his Ecd more. He's been so kiteable for so many years that honestly I was taken aback the first few games at the strength of that slow.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesI think people need to respect his Ecd more. He's been so kiteable for so many years that honestly I was taken aback the first few games at the strength of that slow.
He's not a fucking juggernaut.
I should be able to go toe to toe with him as a bruiser and not be shredded.
LostFr0st2 votesHe's not a fucking juggernaut.
Why shouldn't he be? It's actually the best match for his kit until his eventual VGU (and probably even then too). Realistically speaking, he'll only ever reach the tanky dudes reliably.
I should be able to go toe to toe with him as a bruiser and not be shredded.
Again, why though? Honestly asking here. Where would you rather they push Cho? Before he was binary and was basically like Blitz; relying completely on fishing for Q.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesWhy shouldn't he be? It's actually the best match for his kit until his eventual VGU
Why shouldn't he be? Well, there's no reason he shouldn't. Well, except that unconditional targeted true damage nukes aren't really balanced when used on squishies (the best juggernauts are strong at melee range but still retain counterplay, like Darius).
That being said, right now, he isn't. Or if he is, it's only because his damage is just as high as a juggernauts, but I would just call him an overpowered Warden.
Why?
Because he's got way too much utility for a juggernaut. Look at the other juggernauts. The most they've got are single target slows, brief AoE knockbacks, a small AoE pull, a semi-spammable single target stun (Udyr) and a fairly long duration silence.
Cho's got an AoE long knockup + slow, as well as an AoE silence.
That's miles better than every other juggernaut that currently exists.
Not to mention he's also the tankiest. (well not sure about this one)
The others have bonus resists + brief damage reduction + regen, heals, more heals, bonus resists + bonus health, bonus health, and a fairly weak shield + lifesteal.
Cho's got infinite stacking health on his ult and passive healing whenever something dies. Afaik the infinite stacking health is pretty strong.
(and probably even then too). Realistically speaking, he'll only ever reach the tanky dudes reliably.
Or the less tanky bruisers who want to fight him like other tanks, or even juggernauts.
Again, why though? Honestly asking here. Where would you rather they push Cho?
Juggernaut is fine if they reduce his CC and also make him less reliable (no nonconditional true damage targeted nuke please).
Otherwise he'll be a Vanguard, with his shortrange silences that make him great at stopping bruisers for blowing up your backline, and a delayed knockup that is most reliable when used predictively.
Before he was binary and was basically like Blitz; relying completely on fishing for Q.
Or he could peel with Q and W, or just Q for CC in teamfights, or W for disruption. Cho's never been blitzcrank level of simply.
LostFr0st1 votesBecause he's got way too much utility for a juggernaut. Look at the other juggernauts. The most they've got are single target slows, brief AoE knockbacks, a small AoE pull, a semi-spammable single target stun (Udyr) and a fairly long duration silence.
The other juggernauts all have speed buffs too though, whether it be through cleaver, their abilities, or their passives. I think they could reduce the slow on his Q if they were to touch anything.
Otherwise he'll be a Vanguard, with his shortrange silences that make him great at stopping bruisers for blowing up your backline, and a delayed knockup that is most reliable when used predictively.
."
He'll never be on the levels of 
.He used to be forced to act as a Warden to peel because he'd get blown up and only could do damage to people he could never reach. If he tried to, he'd die and become tiny again.
I will tell you it was laughable to see a giant Void creature of Cho's stature do that.
Or he could peel with Q and W, or just Q for CC in teamfights, or W for disruption. Cho's never been blitzcrank level of simply.
No, he was. Ask anyone who played a decent amount of Cho.
You'd walk around, wait for them to get in range, press W-->Q (Did it hit? Yes--->go in! No---> wait for WQ cds; repeat.)
Asayake 5150glow1 votesLook at the other juggernauts. The most they've got are single target slows, brief AoE knockbacks, a small AoE pull, a semi-spammable single target stun (Udyr) and a fairly long duration silence.
The other juggernauts all have speed buffs too though, whether it be through cleaver, their abilities, or their passives. I think they could reduce the slow on his Q if they were to touch anything.
That's not utility... none of them have AoE fucking knockups... that alone is nearly as strong as Malphite's ult...
And Silences are really powerful too.
Cho has no reliable ability to be a vanguard. His engage is "run at you with
He used to be forced to act as a Warden to peel because he'd get blown up and only could do damage to people he could never reach. If he tried to, he'd die and become tiny again.
Why... would you need to do damage? You peel with CC. Like the AoE knockup+slow and the AoE silence.
I will tell you it was laughable to see a giant Void creature of Cho's stature do that.
No, he was. Ask anyone who played a decent amount of Cho.
You'd walk around, wait for them to get in range, press W-->Q (Did it hit? Yes--->go in! No---> wait for WQ cds; repeat.)
Or you wait for a teamfight like other wardens and wait for them to start focusing your carries, and then bam hit them with a Q and W?
LostFr0st1 votesThat's not utility...
Um... yes, it is
none of them have AoE fucking knockups... that alone is nearly as strong as Malphite's ult...
It's very VERY telegraphed. Anyone with a dash who is keeping that dash for the Q can dodge it.
And Silences are really powerful too.
Against casters (AD or otherwise) yes, it is conditionally very strong. But that's a lane-matchup thing. The silence isn't unconditionally OP.
Why... would you need to do damage? You peel with CC. Like the AoE knockup+slow and the AoE silence.
Because... he's a giant Void monster. He's not out there planting pansies on the Rift.
He has teeth, throws spikes, and looks threatening; his entire VO is about devouring the world... so he does damage. Very surprising.
Or you wait for a teamfight like other wardens and wait for them to start focusing your carries, and then bam hit them with a Q and W?
Again, not a warden. Never wanted to be one and his gameplay fantasy isn't protect the carry (he'd prob eat his own carry if he could ^^"). He isn't Braum or Taric.
As a funny example, maybe Riven should sit back and wait for them to come for her AD or Mid and then Bam! Hit 'em with a Q W smackdown. <----This is how funny your other comment is to me.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesUm... yes, it is
Ok fine but it's selfish utility, by that regard Fiora would have immense utility. Mobility == Utility
It's very VERY telegraphed. Anyone with a dash who is keeping that dash for the Q can dodge it.
And guess who doesn't have a dash? Mages and Adcs. You know who else doesn't have one? The divers who already blew it getting to your backline, and THAT is why he's a Warden
Against casters (AD or otherwise) yes, it is conditionally very strong. But that's a lane-matchup thing. The silence isn't unconditionally OP.
It's insane in teamfights, because u cuts off half the enemies damage since their APC is usually super spell reliant. It also prevents their tanks from locking you down or using defensive abilities.
Because... he's a giant Void monster. He's not out there planting pansies on the Rift.
But he's a tank. Look at Sion. He's an undead Juggernaut
He has teeth, throws spikes, and looks threatening; his entire VO is about devouring the world... so he does damage. Very surprising.
Huge axe, big smashes, huge explosions.. yet not that much damage.
Again, not a warden. Never wanted to be one and his gameplay fantasy isn't protect the carry (he'd prob eat his own carry if he could ^^"). He isn't Braum or Taric.
He's an older champion who does best when protecting his carries due to his short range and CC that has become unreliable due to increase of mobility.
As a funny example, maybe Riven should sit back and wait for them to come for her AD or Mid and then Bam! Hit 'em with a Q W smackdown. <----This is how funny your other comment is to me.
Except Riven doesn't NEED to do that, since her flash W is almost instant. Cho can't reliably hit his Q, which is why he needs to wait.
LostFr0st1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nBOsoqTH,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-03T12:26:50.408+0000)
Ok fine but it's selfish utility, by that regard Fiora would have immense utility. Mobility == Utility
^I can agree with that.
And guess who doesn't have a dash? Mages and Adcs. You know who else doesn't have one? The divers who already blew it getting to your backline, and THAT is why he's a Warden
Look, I understand ho you feel, but Cho has always done WAY too much damage to be classified as a Warden.
These are the current Wardens: Braum Nunu Tahm Kench Maokai Shen Thresh Alistar Poppy Galio (hybrid Battle Mage)
They can't really kill anyone on their own unless the enemy messes up. Sure, they're annoying, but they won't really kill you outright by themselves with a normal build.
It's insane in teamfights, because u cuts off half the enemies damage since their APC is usually super spell reliant. It also prevents their tanks from locking you down or using defensive abilities.
It's always been that way though; the only reason people are complaining now is because Cho's stacks don't reset and he's actually usable after he dies.
But he's a tank. Look at Sion. He's an undead Juggernaut.
Sion is officially a Vanguard (engage Tank) for more than 95% of the game. When he DIES, he turns into a super kiteable undead juggernaut that does a TON of damage through ribshots if you get near him.
His tag of "undead juggernaut" is a nod to that.
Huge axe, big smashes, huge explosions.. yet not that much damage.
Sion wants to hit people; Cho wants to Kill people. Also, I feel as though Riven can just dodge most of Sion's damage with her kit, compared to Cho's spray + silence.
He's an older champion who does best when protecting his carries due to his short range and CC that has become unreliable due to increase of mobility.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. Cho just hasn't aged well and he's in line for a VGU. Back in the day he used to be just as terrifying, but now everybody and their mom has a dash or another form of mobility. That stuff just wasn't around so much back then.
They've just put him back where he used to be.
Except Riven doesn't NEED to do that, since her flash W is almost instant. Cho can't reliably hit his Q, which is why he needs to wait.
The point of the changes were so Cho didn't need to hit his Q first...
He's supposed to E slow someone to set up the WQ and then auto them down to NOM.
I will agree that he is a tad overtuned right now though^^" ...I'm sure they'll get him in a good spot in a couple patches after crushing pro play a bit.
Jbels1 votes
Asayake 5150glow1 votesOr, you know, you could burst her since she's squishy.
Jbels1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nBOsoqTH,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-08-02T00:10:25.601+0000)
Or, you know, you could burst her since she's squishy.
You can still outplay the ults with Riposte, that's the point
Asayake 5150glow1 votesYou can still outplay he ults with Riposte, that's the point
Ooooh.
That being said, Riposting Cho ult would be like a 200 IQ outplay, unless it's more telegraphed than I remember. And against Darius you're better off Riposting for the attackspeed slow so he never gets enough stacks to do a big ult in the first place (bonus points for Riposting his auto+W).
Against old Cho I would probably also have Riposte'd for the AS slow, as his Q is easy enough to dodge and W is pretty much impossible to dodge (although W is telegraphed, so probably Riposte that and get the AS slow, then use Q to dodge his Q since I wouldn't be silenced).
She does fuck them over but not really because of Riposting the ults.
PopcornBunni1 votes[Every god damn champion with a damage-dealing ability in the game]
This "stat check" meme is getting old. Everything requires properly building against it
Anyone with 
is a stat check for armor
Anyone with 
is a stat check for armor
Anyone with true damage is a stat check for health
Anyone that deals magic damage is a stat check for magic resist
Anyone with resists is a statcheck for % penetration.
Anyone with 
is oh nevermind black cleaver has no counter item or build
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[Every god damn champion with a damage-dealing ability in the game]
This "stat check" meme is getting old. Everything requires properly building against it
Anyone with
Anyone with
Anyone with true damage is a stat check for health
Anyone that deals magic damage is a stat check for magic resist
Anyone with resists is a statcheck for % penetration.
Anyone with
We're not talking about items, we're talking about champions. And when we say statcheck, we don't mean stats are involved, we mean (pretty much) ONLY stats are involved, and very little strategy otherwise.
is a literal statcheck. There's no way around his abilities unless you can flash or blink out of his E. Other than that, the only counterplay is to kite/stay out of range. Still a statcheck if he gets near you.
is pretty similar, although with the change to her E in ult form gave it counterplay, which was leaving the burn area.
Dreadlocks1 votesWhy is this an issue? Lol
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Rengar Revert,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nBOsoqTH,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-08-02T00:28:29.361+0000)
Why is this an issue? Lol
Look at Mordekaiser.
That's why.
Dreadlocks1 votesThis entire game is a stat check. that is built around gold income.. I don't see the validation in your argument.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Rengar Revert,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nBOsoqTH,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-02T00:36:12.382+0000)
This entire game is a stat check. that is built around gold income.. I don't see the validation in your argument.
That is untrue, if I'm playing Riven against an Irelia it's not entirely a statcheck to see who auto wins.
It's true that stats are being checked at all points of the game, but there are other elements as well. Like ways to get more gold than your opponent. Or XP. Or neutral objectives.
Dreadlocks2 votesI don't think you even know wtf u are arguing about anymore rotfl. "stat checks exist at all points of the game, but irelia vs riven isn't a stat check" like what? First off, do you even know what irelia's E does? It literally "stat checks" the enemy's HP to determine if it'll stun or slow..
The entire game is about stats.. You build stats, you level up to get more stats, the entire game revolves around stats.
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Rengar Revert,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nBOsoqTH,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-02T02:13:26.011+0000)
I don't think you even know wtf u are arguing about anymore rotfl. "stat checks exist at all points of the game, but irelia vs riven isn't a stat check" like what?
This.
That's the most stat-checky stat check of top lane, possibly the whole rift.
PopcornBunni1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nBOsoqTH,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-08-02T00:26:13.976+0000)
We're not talking about items, we're talking about champions. And when we say statcheck, we don't mean stats are involved, we mean (pretty much) ONLY stats are involved, and very little strategy otherwise.
Or use crowd control effects, trades, take advantage of their cooldowns, build resistances against their damage types, inflict grievous wounds to mitigate their healing use item or summoner spell actives to engage more safely, utilize ignored unit collision to minion block, or all in them with team support in the team game.
There is a fuck tonne of counterplay to even the simplest of mechanics in the game.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesOr use crowd control effects, trades, take advantage of their cooldowns, build resistances against their damage types, inflict grievous wounds to mitigate their healing use item or summoner spell actives to engage more safely, utilize ignored unit collision to minion block, or all in them with team support in the team game.
Shyvana has minimal cooldowns and they aren't gonna be used unless you bait them out.
Trades also counts as kiting, don't you know that?
Building resists is not counterplay, that's counterbuilding. Very, very different.
Engaging more safely also counts as kiting.
Unit collision also counts as kiting.
That's called winning the statcheck.
There is a fuck tonne of counterplay to even the simplest of mechanics in the game.
There is a lot of gameplay mechanics in this game, however being statchecky makes it not nearly as fun... ever laned/played against a fed Trundle? Or ever played as Garen? Statchecking isn't just something to be played around - if you're a statcheck champion and you're losing lane, there's very little you can do outside of call for ganks.
Critkeeper1 votesjust play tryndamere
