When does it get changed? When does Riot even SAY SOMETHING about this money laundering scheme of an item? How long do we go forward until we realize we had our collective fly down ever since 5 stops and 15 miles of walking ago?
AirKingNeo4 votesMeddler is a Janna Main.
Put the rest together.
chipndip111 votesI mean, HONESTLY, I don't really want to meme over it. I'm legit asking.
It Hertz When IP1 votesIf I had to guess, I'd say that it's because out of all the gold items, Coin is the only one that's pretty universally usable on every support choice. Meaning that, when it's overpowered, you can just switch to using it.
Meaning that Coin being overly strong mostly just leads to monotony in support gold choices. Bad, yes, but not MASSIVELY gamebreaking, which means that they are likely waiting to really look at it until after the other support itemization issues are addressed. Historically, whenever Riot's nerfed multiple aspects of some issue at the same time, it doesn't work out well for overall balance.
AirKingNeo2 votesTechnically I wasn't memeing much either. Leader designers having a bias to let their champion/role not be nerfed.
Hence why Death's Dance or Riven haven't been nerfed. Riven main on the balance team.
TheHappyReaperz3 votesI'm curious if you actually think like that, or if you are just memeing. I get Riot is a small indie company, but the balance team makes decisions based on logic, not on personal favorites.
AirKingNeo1 votesah yes, the balance team operates on logic, that's why bramble vest was created to completely fuck over bruisers and wasn't hotfixed. That's why riven hasn't been nerfed despite her high winrate/playrate. Or why Fiora is broken tier again.
Great logic; totally not bias. /s
TheHappyReaperz5 votesBramble Vest has been nerfed, encouraging players to upgrade it to Thornmail, instead of just keep Bramble. Riven is sitting at a 50% win-rate with a 11.4% play-rate, which is completely reasonable. Fiora is sitting at a 50.3% win-rate with a 9.5% play-rate, which is also completely reasonable.
Great logic, definetly not bias.
Best princess EU4 votesoutside of you, i never saw anyone claiming that riven needs a nerf so i wonder how can you selfproclaim that the balance team is doing a bad decision
maybe YOU should not be ahead of yourself
LankPants3 votesThe last Janna nerf made her pretty weak, when coin finally does get nerfed she'll be utterly worthless and knowing Riot they won't buff her. It'll be Sejuani all over again.
Infernape2 votesNot really. Janna still has a 55% winrate.
LankPants2 voteshttps://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Janna/
No she doesn't. Since her nerf her winrate's fallen by a lot.
Malothere1 voteshttps://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Janna/
No she doesn't. Since her nerf her winrate's fallen by a lot.
Red post confirmed those statistics were wrong and that shes sitting at around 54%.
Hopefully link works.
Daddy Ants3 voteshttps://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Janna/
No she doesn't. Since her nerf her winrate's fallen by a lot.
Riot said her winrate is 53% judging by Internal data.
LankPants2 votesWhich is still a drop of ~6% from where she was. That to me means that at minimum she's no longer overwhelming and there's a fair chance she's bellow average.
Daddy Ants2 votesWhich is still a drop of ~6% from where she was. That to me means that at minimum she's no longer overwhelming and there's a fair chance she's bellow average.
53% winrate below average?
Uhm, No.
AirKingNeo1 votesthat was pre-second-hotfix
XXDXDDDXDXD1 votesThe last Janna nerf made her pretty weak, when coin finally does get nerfed she'll be utterly worthless and knowing Riot they won't buff her. It'll be Sejuani all over again.
idk she feels stronger than ever in my opinion
BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votesHe's actually a Nami main.
Skorch4 votesAh yes, COIN the biggest issue in support customization.
Definetly not the fact that WINRATE wise, the biggest issue was Ardent. The item that they built BEFORE even completing coin.
Dont want to talk about winrate? Well then Coin isnt that far ahead OR behind other support items. And if so then they will reach the reward by maybe 100g. BUT from my experience if you can manage Relic stacks, and Spellthiefs stacks appropriately. It isnt that much of an increase.
Wanna talk about how its slightly better for less effort. Then I'll say Coin is for champions that dont want to fight. At all. Boring? Yes. A problem? Not really. Soraka/"old" Janna shouldnt need to build Spellthiefs and play aggressive to have income. They simply arent designed for it.
Still upset by lack of effort? Then ill say that Relic and Spellthiefs, STAT WISE are better. WITH better rewards too. The spellthiefs passive upgraded is so strong mids were taking it. And the durability shield from relic reward is so strong that ADCs are taking it (well that and the shared gold is nice) But on tanks the shield gets pretty damn massive. The Coin movespeed towards you is nice, but ultimately means that to lead a charge the passive enchanter needs to be in front. During fights its gimicky. Only REALLY making it useful while fleeing.
And FINALLY. Old coin made supports even more passive.
So i ask you fine boards user. What do you want done to coin? Remember it has to encompasse the passive support playstyle. While still giving equal gold. (And again if you manage your relic/spellthiefs stacks well you hit the reward at the same time, and passive supports shouldnt get less income for doing their job.)
Daedric Etwahl4 votesI think the primary issue is that you can work hard to properly manage your Spellthief's/Targon's stacks, and still only come out equal to the enemy Coin support who doesn't have to put in anywhere near as much work or effort.
ActivatingEMP1 votesAh yes, COIN the biggest issue in support customization.
Definetly not the fact that WINRATE wise, the biggest issue was Ardent. The item that they built BEFORE even completing coin.
Dont want to talk about winrate? Well then Coin isnt that far ahead OR behind other support items. And if so then they will reach the reward by maybe 100g. BUT from my experience if you can manage Relic stacks, and Spellthiefs stacks appropriately. It isnt that much of an increase.
Wanna talk about how its slightly better for less effort. Then I'll say Coin is for champions that dont want to fight. At all. Boring? Yes. A problem? Not really. Soraka/"old" Janna shouldnt need to build Spellthiefs and play aggressive to have income. They simply arent designed for it.
Still upset by lack of effort? Then ill say that Relic and Spellthiefs, STAT WISE are better. WITH better rewards too. The spellthiefs passive upgraded is so strong mids were taking it. And the durability shield from relic reward is so strong that ADCs are taking it (well that and the shared gold is nice) But on tanks the shield gets pretty damn massive. The Coin movespeed towards you is nice, but ultimately means that to lead a charge the passive enchanter needs to be in front. During fights its gimicky. Only REALLY making it useful while fleeing.
And FINALLY. Old coin made supports even more passive.
So i ask you fine boards user. What do you want done to coin? Remember it has to encompasse the passive support playstyle. While still giving equal gold. (And again if you manage your relic/spellthiefs stacks well you hit the reward at the same time, and passive supports shouldnt get less income for doing their job.)
Ummm it shouldn't have equal income? The other support items are conditional and require active work to get gold out of them, while the coin line is literally just "sit in lane and don't die"
chipndip11 votesYou do realize that it was coin that allowed the first support challenger player to reach NA rank 1 this season, right? Consensual Clown abused it on Sona low-key and hit rank 1 spamming coin every game.
Censer didn't do this to support in solo queue. Coin did.
Best princess EU1 votesno one cares about who does what Anecdotes are not, and will never, ever, be a proof of balance
keep farming upvotes with coin threads, but don't ever claim that it's broken because of one dude when stats wise it's false
chipndip11 votesYou DO realize that most Sona users followed his example, and her win/play rate were both a good margin lower when she was mainly using STE, right?
He isn't an anecdote. He's one of the best enchanter players on the server that showed something was blatantly op. "Keep farming upvotes with coin threads". Next you're gonna tell me "Keep farming upvotes with Janna threads". I legit can't stand these boards. You guys say the dumbest things like half the time with your hive-mind mentality.
Athenes Lulu3 votesEvery time I see people building coin they always have the one with more gold for doing less. Pro play, my games, basically every time when one person goes coin and the other doesn't.
You need to bring this up because coin is supposed to be THE "low risk low reward" gold gen option, and we all well remember that.
Erockandroll3 votes[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nA4qTmIl,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-09-30T06:12:48.077+0000)
Every time I see people building coin they always have the one with more gold for doing less. Pro play, my games, basically every time when one person goes coin and the other doesn't.
You need to bring this up because coin is supposed to be THE "low risk low reward" gold gen option, and we all well remember that.
In my experience, Riot has pretty much thrown out the "Risk Reward" balancing. Cause basically anyone with a brain can work with the higher risks and maximize their gold count. (Back then, the Spellthiefs line was OP) The balancing reversed as Riot tried to normalize the gold income, but didn't change the stats or utility the items had. (Result, spellthiefs had normalized GP10, but less utility than the other items)
[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nA4qTmIl,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-09-30T12:29:20.967+0000)
I think the primary issue is that you can work hard to properly manage your Spellthief's/Targon's stacks, and still only come out equal to the enemy Coin support who doesn't have to put in anywhere near as much work or effort.
Technically, it requires you to be within a certain range of you laners to be effective.
While that may not seem like "Work" it does limit your options as a support. You become more tided to your laner and you could loss gold if you tried to roam. (Compared to Spellthiefs or relic shield, which allows you to roam while your stacks are recharging.)
Athenes Lulu1 votesIn my experience, Riot has pretty much thrown out the "Risk Reward" balancing. Cause basically anyone with a brain can work with the higher risks and maximize their gold count. (Back then, the Spellthiefs line was OP) The balancing reversed as Riot tried to normalize the gold income, but didn't change the stats or utility the items had. (Result, spellthiefs had normalized GP10, but less utility than the other items)
For reference, when the gold gen items were first introduced back in season 4, they made it pretty clear that spellthief = high risk high reward, relic shield = medium risk medium reward, and coin = low risk low reward.
I guess that has long been changed. Nothing surprising, but the fact that you're doing less risk to gain more reward isn't a good measure of balance either. It now comes down to the question: "why build anything else when coin is objectively better, and you get more for doing less anyways?"
Maybe the question is an overstatement since the stats and quest rewards on spellthief and relic shield are very different, but if we're talking about purely trying to win, coin is pretty much THE go-to option.
XxxLumberJackxxX1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nA4qTmIl,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-09-30T06:12:48.077+0000)
Every time I see people building coin they always have the one with more gold for doing less. Pro play, my games, basically every time when one person goes coin and the other doesn't.
You need to bring this up because coin is supposed to be THE "low risk low reward" gold gen option, and we all well remember that.
No. Coin is the 'no laning power but more gold and personal sustain' option. Its pretty greedy... The problem is the champs that use coin well are champs that also rush sensor
Blade of Justic2 votesNo. Coin is the 'no laning power but more gold and personal sustain' option. Its pretty greedy... The problem is the champs that use coin well are champs that also rush sensor
That's because the champs that use coin are passive shielders/healers.
So, obviously, they're gonna build the item that helps them best shield/heal.
Erockandroll1 votes[{quoted}](name=Blade of Justic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nA4qTmIl,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2017-09-30T20:21:40.412+0000)
That's because the champs that use coin are passive shielders/healers.
So, obviously, they're gonna build the item that helps them best shield/heal.
Considering that it's the best Mana sustain support item, it's no wonder that people get frustrated if those champs can heal/shield indefinitely, FROM the back line where it's difficult to poke you out.
But what if we increased the unique bonuses of the other items? More poke damage on spellthief's, more sustain on Relic shield? (Probably can't, if other laners abuse it.)
chipndip12 votesToo much sustain from Relic and it'll keep any adc from dying.
Too much extra damage from STE and mid laners will build FQC.
chipndip12 votesThat gold turns into quick support items that give bigger bonuses than your gold item will in terms of utility and stats, anyway. You don't lose out on much lane power, but you get a significantly faster power spike. Why do you guys keep parroting off that talking point like it's an actual noticeable trade-off? If it was, would we be having this conversation? Would the casters at Worlds be making jokes about how coin is all over the place in solo queue?
Malothere3 votesI missed the days when spellthief was the go to item if you wanted to make a lot of gold and coin was the " i just need to sit and not die in lane" support item. Now every time i see my enemy support take spellthiefs i chuckle because i know im going to out sustain him AND pass him in gold by more than double by 15 minutes.
CoolKnightST1 votesThat where the times when coin still was a roaming item providing movementspeed. Now they basicly revert the entire concept by moving coin into a lane oriënted item.
KlydeFrog1 votes......why do people keep whining about things like this. The gold you get is random because you have a chance to also get mana regen. Coin does not have passive gold regen like frost queen and face of the mountain has. The reason people with face of the mountain do not have the most gold compared is because people hardly let them excute the cs.
Daedric Etwahl3 votesActually, Coin DOES have passive gold gen just like the other two lines. I don't know when this was added, because I don't remember it being there last time I checked, but it's there in the Item Set tool in client, unless this is a bug. Right now EVERY support item has "+2 gold per 10 seconds" listed on it.
If you ask me the coin line definitely shouldn't have that...
KlydeFrog1 votesI'm not seeing it on ancient coin .it used to have it then then got rid of it a while ago.
Daedric Etwahl2 votesCurrently looking at it in the client, and ingame, both places have the passive gp10 listed.
KlydeFrog1 votesI'm not seeing it on talisman if you can screen shot
Daedric Etwahl1 votesCan't screenshot it, unfortunately, but it's there for me
Durzaka1 votesAncient Coin absolutely has +2 gp/10 on the client as of right now.
chipndip11 votesIt's one of each coin a wave...do you play support?
KlydeFrog2 votesI play nothing but supp and it's random on what you get . I just tend to get that even though there is no passive gold gain on it like face and frost have per 10 sec. It's just to hard to proc relic shield stacks outside of lane phase which is why it's not desirable but it does have the most gold gain out of all the items
SEKAI1 votesI'm not sure if this is a champ specific opinion, but I love coin on Soraka. I especially build into the Talisman of Ascension for the crisp AoE MS boost that's just so good for all sorts of things Soraka-related.
I guess if you were to touch something, maybe nerf the gold gen, either gold per coin or the frequency of coins.
StoryDuck1 votesCoin makes it easy yes, but if you know what you're doing you can keep up in gold with Relic. Spellthief can't keep up but it's for bullying lane and not really picked for late game gold generation. It was made worse when they changed it to not proc multiple times off one ability. I grant spellthief sucks at gold generation compared to others but I don't think coin is busted because of gold generation. The combination of ADC relic and support coin/relic is pretty oppressive though.
chipndip11 votesCoin makes it easy yes, but if you know what you're doing you can keep up in gold with Relic.
I feel only people that don't actually use coin to SEE the difference actually make this ridiculous claim.
StoryDuck1 votesHaha, check my record I use coin too. I do pick coin over spellthief 9/10 times but as long as I'm on top of my charges Relic line can keep up with the coin line. You often end up a hundred or 2 behind but I would consider that keeping up and I've had games where i got more gold with my relic items then the opponent's coin. Both items are based on getting gold via waves. Relic you need to execute, coin just gives it for free. I do agree that coin makes it WAY too easy to get that gold.
chipndip11 votesNo, you don't see the difference throughout the match. My coin games that go for a full game length get me like 2.5k to 3k gold on the item. If I check the enemy support, they have like half that amount. In lane, yeah it's a few hundred, but if I'm "a few hundred" over you and you have like 300 gold on yours, me having like 500 is actually a huge gap. That's almost double, and that gap will continue to increase in severity as the game goes on. Re-frame how you look at the issue.
StoryDuck1 votesYou can tell me to "re-frame" how I look at the issue all you want it won't change the fact that when I get a relic shield on Taric, Leona or other melee supports I communicate with my team and they let me proc the charges I keep up (always got to ask). You say 2.5-3k gold with coin in late? I've done that with relic line. Its a lot harder to do and you need to be aggressive about it but you can do it. It is 10x harder to accomplish then with coin, coin rewards gold so easy you always get 2.5k to 3k gold in late game even when behind. When behind you are right relic is like 1k to 1.5k behind coin because you can't just be "near minions" to get that gold.
I do agree that coin is a problem but I don't think reducing gold is the way. I think the window to collect and range of collecting (especially after completing quest) should be lower. It should be easier to punish players being too passive and there should be a way to prevent them from just collecting a payout by being near when the reward is so high. The fact a support can lose lane hard but still end up with enough gold to match other GP10 items is the issue.
PopcornBunni1 votesShield and coin both need changes.
Coin gold needs reduced by 5 at all ranks of the item
Shield line needs to generate an extra 5 gold for each minion killed by it. It's mostly bad because proccing it requires pushing a lane to your opponent. Lower its shield amount for adcs abusing it, or make the shield scale with health.
Spellthief's is alright because the damage it gives is pretty substantial in laning and thus offsets the gold it doesn't generate by denying gold to the enemy.