Whenever neither team has a hyper scaling ADC I have genuine fun with the game

Malicious Metal··69 votes·17,245 views

With riot trying to push League as a team game I believe having every player have the same amount of impact is important and hyperscalers totally screw with that notion.

When your team lacks one and the enemy doesn't it feels like playing against a ticking time bomb. On the same hand, if both teams have one it can feel like it's a 1v1 between them with all of you having to funnel all your resources into ONE player.

The rare case when neither has one though, oh, that's why I play this game. It feels like both teams have a equally important players and it feels really exciting playing these games where both teams constantly try outsmarting each other and gaining the upper hand.

No hyperscaling BS, just a nice match of league of legends where every player's important and contributes to the success of a team.

So, Tl;DR: I love you guys Draven Ezreal MissFortune Lucian Caitlyn Sivir

94 Comments

Kaìju56 votes

Sivir and Cait both scale into hyper carries.

saltran2 votes

{quoted}

Sivir and Cait both scale into hyper carries.

Cait lacks the aa steroid so she's half hipercarry imo, but Sivir for sure is an hipercarry

Kaìju31 votes

Attack speed steroids don't make a hyper carry. Vayne doesn't have an attack speed steroid, Kog only has one as a passive on his Q. Hyper carries are defined by their insane late game damage. Cait landing a trap late game can two shot a squishy from 1300 units away. That sounds pretty hyper carry to me.

Sivir in the same vain, critting W in a team fight can melt through a team because it's AOE crits in the same category as Jinx, just from shorter range. Sivir has extremely high DPS late game.

XeroKimo1 votes

Old league, hyper carries weren't defined by just their damage output late game, but how well they can melt tanks. The common reason why someone is a hyper carry, was they either had %hp in their kits or a strong attack speed steroid.

I still wouldn't count sivir as a hyper carry champion, she still falls under a lane bully to me...... if only lane bully adcs still existed.... NERF SUPPORT DMG PLS

Kaìju10 votes

"To me." That's the great thing about opinions, they're allowed to be wrong.

Also, old League. Is this old League? Don't need a wordy reply, yes or no is today old League?

SEKAI32 votes

OP has never seen the real horror of fed Draven and Lucian.

Hügö34 votes

Or perma slowing ez with iceborn.

Executioner11 votes

I can confirm, aids.

Ahristocats10 votes

best part is Lucian not being considered as a hypercarry when he 2 shots you later in the game his passive can crit with IE which adds like 150% bonus damage

My Waifu Vanilla4 votes

Except he still gets outscaled by half the roster since Lucian can't teamfight very well past 25 minutes. Having an auto range that is THAT short means you just die if someone wants you to die. Yes, if you are like 5/0 then you will NEVER get to that point, but a Lucian that didn't stomp lane is useless since he doesn't have the stealth or pick potential of Kai'sa/Vayne who are also relatively short ranged.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9BBH22u,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2018-04-12T17:24:51.064+0000)

best part is Lucian not being considered as a hypercarry when he 2 shots you later in the game his passive can crit with IE which adds like 150% bonus damage

especially with Press the Attack

doubleguac2 votes

Fed draven and lucian are super strong in the mid game, but they have tons of counterplay in the late game. Very different than late game twitch, who pops out of stealth and two hits your backline from outside their range.

Ya, they can snowball and take over a game, but that's the point of picking a mid-game snowballer. You still have ample opportunity to come back against these guys. As opposed to twitch or sometimes Trist, where it does sometimes feel like, if they get fed early, the game is pretty much over.

Hópe21 votes

While Ezreal is a ''weaker'' adc i actually fucking hate him the most out of every adc.

No ADC should be able to rush armor and still do damage. Watching an Ezreal land one Q and get a gold sack is beyond tilting.

Teridax6811 votes

My biggest issue with hypercarries in League is the way in which their power curve is implemented. Personally, I do think a player should be able to enter godmode and solo carry a game, but only if they work appropriately hard for it. If a champion starts off at a severe disadvantage, is forced to put themselves in risky and difficult situations versus enemy champions to progress, and succeeds, then imo they deserve to come out of that with a significant boost to their power. Kayn is a good example of this, even though he's not a hypercarry, because his powerful transformations only occur once he participates enough in combat while in a less powerful state.

However, hypercarries in League typically spike with gold, which they mostly collect by farming safely, and as such that typically leads to a degree of very boring and uninteractive gameplay, and an increased amount of frustration for the opposing team, who ends up feeling like they couldn't do much to prevent that time bomb from going off. This is why Feral Flare was a balance nightmare that felt like shit to play against, as well. Effectively, hypercarries should have their power awarded for completing difficult objectives that force interaction with their opponents at an appropriate disadvantage, yet champs currently hyperscale in a manner that is neither particularly interesting nor interactive.

Another problem I have with hypercarries is that their power tends to overwhelmingly influence their combat effectiveness: personally, I'm perfectly fine with having effects that put a team on a clock, so long as that doesn't limit interaction between players. Heroes of the Storm has a character named Sergeant Hammer, for example, who can fire the equivalent of an Ezreal ult, and who can upgrade it at later levels to cycle the map non-stop. Because most abilities damage structures in that game, this means she can position her ult to repeatedly pass through structures from global range, putting the enemy team on a clock where their structures will inevitably all be destroyed, given enough time. However, because this doesn't really affect her power in combat, it does not limit her counterplay. Hypercarries in League could learn from this model, and I'd be interested in seeing hypercarries defined by their ability to reliably push towards the enemy nexus, without that power translating to overwhelming dominance in fights. When a champion begins to auto-win fights simply because someone decided they should scale that way, that's not really fun for anyone involved, not even for the hypercarry player who suddenly finds themselves without any real challenge.

Finally, one issue I take with League, and to a lesser extent DotA/Dota 2, is that those games still overwhelmingly rely on a model where each team is centered around a carry. If your team doesn't have a carry and the other team does, when skill levels are equal you're practically guaranteed to lose no matter what, and that I think ends up removing depth to team compositional choice, and reducing diversity overall in match dynamics and diversity. Additionally, this tends to lead to unsavory dynamics where other players have to babysit the carry to cover up their early game weakness, which in the end removes a degree of risk that is supposed to be essential to that carry's gameplay and counterplay. On top of that, it leads to the feeling mentioned in the OP, where at the end there's only one star to the show in every match, and everyone else just automatically turns into a secondary character. While this may be an interesting dynamic to have in some matches, particularly if one particular player carries their team through good play, rather than through arbitrarily assigned scalings, I don't think this should be the universal model to all gameplay in League, as I think every player deserves to shine individually and have an equal amount of agency.

TL;DR: Hypercarries should scale through risk and exceptionally good play, not by safely farming gold; we need hypercarries to remain interactive in combat at all stages of the game, and so more hypercarries whose power gains translate into objectives rather than fighting; League needs to stop making every match revolve around a carry champion, and should allow games to work perfectly fine with exactly zero carries on a team, or at least with comps in which every player has about equal amounts of agency and presence.

Auurun2 votes

IMO hypercarry, lanebully and so on should simply disappear. Hypercarries feel shitty to play against not because of the way they got to the "godmode" power-level, but because they can get there to begin with. Doesn't matter what they did to achieve such power, because the experience of playing against them when they get rolling is shitty itself. For me all champions should be on similar power-level at all stages of the game.

Also regarding Kayn. For me it is a PROBLEM of his that he's so weak before transforming. It's easy to exploit such weak moment in game and it feels shitty playing Kayn in earlygame and at the same time it feels shitty to face transformed Kayn than suddenly gets this massive boost and rekts you just cause he managed to finally get his essence. I always thought that he should be buffed before transformation and have actual strengths and when he finally do transform he should gain new one, but also lose one of those already had.

I understand that you just like the idea of quest giving power like it is in HOTS, but I would be cautious about taking inspiration from this game as it is a game that accepts any wacky mechanics regardless of how they may affect the game. I admit this might be interesting idea these quests, but for me it is something that either everyone has or nobody, or it's a global mechanic not attached to any champions, but to objectives, items or something else.

Mizaya8 votes

RIP old Graves and ADC Corki

Sex With Annie5 votes

I thought the adc meme was over

Spank the Fox5 votes

When neither team has an overpowered CC machine tank, I have the most fun.

Opinions are fun

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

This is the internet opinions aren't allowed here. The only "opinion" that matters is mine and everyone else is full of it and wrong. /s

Modl Ryden l4 votes

When things go my way, I have a fun game.

Ionian Vulpix4 votes

I enjoy playing hyper carries because I want to be able to kill tanks.

epic dude26112 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9BBH22u,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-04-12T19:33:59.192+0000)

I enjoy playing hyper carries because I want to be able to kill tanks.

Tanks aren't hard to kill as an arc as long as the tank is not significantly ahead, a tank with say 200 armour and 3000HP mid game tabis has 6600 effective health. A four item (and boots) adc has about 1.7 as, 280 ad and 80% crit (plus IE), averaging at about 600damage per attack. 6600 divided by 600 divided by 1.7 is 6.5 So it takes you 6.5 seconds to kill a tank, and this is avoiding pta and Bork and last wisper and ardent censor and assuming the tank only builds armour

And this is the mid game, where a tank should be strong

Automated Riven4 votes

4 ítem adc Is encroaching pretty hard on late game. 2-3 items is more a midgame comparison.

PB4UAME2 votes

When ADCs get their three item spike at 8,700 gold, and divers and juggernauts need about 2k more gold for their three item core, I would not call this even truly midgame, but early-midgame.

By midgame for other classes, for the same gold (despite ADCS actually getting funneled MORE gold per time than any other class) ADCs are at least 2k gold into their fourth item, and with his build he's describing, that is roughly 2k gold worth of AD on top of IE plus two zeal items.

Basically, it makes sense, and from statistical data by the time ADCs on average have the build he's talking about and generally those levels of stats, solo laners are just finishing their three item core + boots, which is definitely something I'd consider midgame.

Two items on an ADC is barely 6k gold, that's hella early game.

Automated Riven1 votes

Your right that the gold value is pretty warped. But that doesn't change the fact that midgame has historically started as soon as laning phase ends. (around 1- 1.5 items) and late game champions start really hitting strides at about 4 items. That's why item counts determine mid-late game and you people typically refer to late game based on each individual champion rather then a set time.

epic dude26111 votes

Yes but the adc gets funnelled so much gold they can have 3 items while I have only just finished tri, The adc core 3 item build is roughly 11000 gold, which is easily attainable by mid game

Automated Riven1 votes

If an adc has 10k gold while you only have 4k there is a huge issue. Yes an adc can have 3 items easily while a bruiser on equal footing has 2.5 but that's a separate issue which doesn't actually refer to what phase of the game it is. It's still midgame it's simply that one champion is closer to reaching their late game then the other.

epic dude26111 votes

OK, I think you are right, I'm not really answering the point, so I will ask you this, what happens in the mid game in the current meta?

Automated Riven1 votes

Historically midgame has always been defined as 'first tower falling and traditional laning ending'. In this meta typically bot lane rotates top and top starts roaming or catching waves. Dives are set up to threaten people off towers to take them and rift herold is used to secure extra towers or tower damage. There is typically 5 minutes or so of this before people start setting up for Baron spawn and adc's at this point are around 2-2 1/2 items. Around 25 minutes is when (in an even game) it would be safe to call it mid/late game. Typically the (in an even game) two teams have traded all three outer turrets. Adc's have hit three items spikes (including boots) most champions barring fighters have hit 3 items fighters would be finishing them in a few minutes tho. As the game goes on around 30 minutes (in an even game) everyone has surpassed 4 items and the game officially hits late game with a few inner turrets down on each side. And the major pressure point being Baron. Picks mean alot due to a dark map and pressure on Baron and the control it would Grant you over elder.

Now obviously this is an even game with a low kill count. The reason I say that indevidual champs are based on mid/late and late game is because someone snowballing causes them to reach late game items earlier. And late game hyper carries are determined by items and levels, the actual game timer means nothing if everyone ints bot and gives trist 5 items by 22 minutes in the game. That is still a late game tristana even though the timer shows a traditional mid-midlate game timing.

Edit** for clarification I am using mid/late for the traditional period between mid game and late game. Where mid game champions would fall off and late game champions turn on. As it's based on items and the curve is far broader the early game champs to mid game champs (think a mid game champ finishing triforce, it's an instant power transfer) this cause mid game to tone down as late game ramps up over 2-5 minutes depending on the state of the game.

epic dude26111 votes

Not really., The adc has the cheapest core build (crit as items are like 2600 ) and all of he teams gold is typically funnelled into the adc, so four item ADCs (including boots) can easily make appearances by the 20 minute mark

Edit : essential the same point as the pb4uname

Big Lincoln3 votes

buff master yi

Ahristocats16 votes

no pls

Over Innsmouth5 votes

yes pls

Ahristocats8 votes

Tides pls, remember that there are 10 players in the game, not 1

Over Innsmouth11 votes

5 players to feed and 4 to blame.

Wuju lives on.

remakoro2 votes

for 5 mins i was sure you meant YI The buff master. There are buffs and he lords over them. Or perfecting them like martial artist. YI and his way of Buffs.

And then it hit me just what kind of horror you are wishing for.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Tbh, I'd buy that skin.

Hell, it's a beautiful line of skins. You can have Buff Master Yi, Buff Yasuo, and Buff Riven. You only need it for the memes. It'd sell better than any other skin line.

Greedy Pikachu3 votes

[deleted]

DorkunedAuras2 votes

He'll never consider Ashe ok just because she kites the hell out of Morde

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

I don't really consider either of them hypercarries. They don't have the damage and safety of picks like kog, vayne, kaisa, trist, jinx, and twitch.

Snowman Arc3 votes

Sivir is probably the most reliable hyper carry though.

Yaskamasandwich3 votes

I've always had a problem with the concept of hyper carries since day one. I don't mind early game, mid game, and late game champions, but always hated hyper carries. First off there's no point in late game champions since hyper carries exist and do their jobs but better. Secondly it forces the game to, as Malicious Metal stated, revolve around them. Thirdly it screws around with agency, a hyper carry concept to work by not do anything early game and then become God late game and force everyone else to kneel or be useless is absurd. It puts a ticking time bomb on the enemy team. OH HEY WAIT A MINUTE! Nasus did the same thing too but was nerfed and removed from hyper carry status because he wasn't a Marksmen. Which leads to my 4th point. Only Marksmen are allowed to be hyper carries which promotes the whole rule that they rule over other classes, and are the only class to have special things problem.

To prove my point further let's look at the opposite way, Pantheon. Pantheon is a hyper bully champion with loads of problems because of this. Whenever he becomes popular, like the start of this season, he breaks top lane in half and to a point the entire game. He removes all agency to his opponent and then looses all agency if the game reaches a certain point. It sucks playing against Pantheon because you can't do anything for a certain amount of time. It also sucks playing as Pantheon because you have to break the enemy team both mentally and physically before a certain time. It puts a ticking time bomb for your team because you picked a champion who has to end the game really really fast. So it sucks playing as Pantheon or playing against him because of that. Hyper carries used to have no agency early game but since they're Marksmen they reach their hyper God status by their 2nd item. Even then having no agency at any point of the game is just as dumb as having all the agency in the game.

AlbertNewton1172 votes

Jhin ?

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

current jhin with rageblade getting over 1.3k ad, i do not consider a hypercarry.

AlbertNewton1171 votes

before that

Saianna2 votes

Any ADC is hypercarry if played well or against newbies, especially with how ADC itemization goes nowadays...

Jhynx1 votes

Basically every adc is a hypercarry.

Because their role is.. carrying.

JustaNewb3 votes

Not... really. Look at it like this.

Jinx Her kit, by itself, is adaptable to the extreme, able to swap from massive burst to incredible sustain. Everything she does increases her ability to chase or kite, and it does so in an anime-like superhero fashion. If you are low, you die as a punishment.

Draven He... has a ton of opening burst. Jinx runs circles around him while he either can't get into her range, or cant get into her ramge. Ever.

Jhynx2 votes

Your point? They're still hypercarries because if they get kills its pretty much ggwp if your team knows what they're doing.

JustaNewb2 votes

A hypercarry is something that, once it begins to snowball... it can't be stopped from snowballing at an ever increasing rate. The only way to win against them, at a certain point, is to drag the game out until they max out, and have the entire team build against them.

Normal carries are not nearly so game oppressing.

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