The AP Problem (In Depth)

Cherysse··2 votes·969 views

Did we all play in S5? Do you remember when an item called Deathfire Grasp was REMOVED? Do you remember the reason? Let me remind you:

  • Riot removed Deathfire Grasp because it's mechanics were toxic, mainly because it made many AP Casters dependent on the item and it's active.

  • How did they fill the void?; with an item 3087 for AP: YES, item 3285 WAS BORN

Since Luden's release the little crew that was dependent on Deathfire Grasp never had to be dependent on it again...

  • BUT NOW: every mage that considered itself a mage had to buy the little AP Sttatik we know as item 3285 In almost every AP build we could see item 3285 present, mainly because it added 110 (10%) magic damage to a power, mainly because it was ready to poke, to kill, to burst and it charged very quickly. Every mage loved it, they started to worship the Ludens, to love the Ludens, to be dependent on Ludens.

  • Little Riot watched over it, so they reduced the AP of all core AP items Every AP player complained, but it didn't affect too much the game, ok! they buffed other items, they never attacked the problem directly! they even increased Ludens movement speed to 10% (to give Luden dependants even more mobility to charge it).

  • **The season was gone: ** and then preseason came, and we can see how they nerfed most of the AP Core items in the overall (and they now cost more for less worth), mainly because an item added too much power for all the mages, because it made them dependent, because it was too reliable, because in it self it was a monster.

  • YES: when RIOT removed Deathfire Grasp because it was a monster they decided to create something that seemed to be balanced! (an AP Stattik! yes it should be balanced!) but it wasn't! they created a worst monster! Now it wasn't an small crew of AP mages that was dependent on the cute purple monster we call Ludens, it was them all, and now they all must pay for being addicted to a little item that broke the whole meta for an small time.


I hope they realize that they must attack the monster directly: This item is broken because: a) This item deals magic damage, and it scales well with both magic pen and AP, unlike Stattik (for ADC) because Stattik deals magic damage, yes, but the core build of an ADC does not include Magic Pen, so the item will have a worst scaling over the late game. b) It can proc from any distance, adding damage to all magic sources! c) It's movement speed is too strong! d) it is really cost effective, and it still is! e) adds too much for an early burst and will scale with all of the mage stats (CDR to stack charges, Magic pen and AP for damage)

**Solution?; **do the same you did to the item 3087 and make item 3285 deal less damage on the early game and scale oce again into late game.

**With this; **the numbers of all AP Casters will go down for a while! and we will need a buff once again to the AP Core items, yes, but the monster would be set under control, so that no one has to be dependent on it again, because it is toxic, even if I enjoy that toxic drug we call Ludens.

So, item 3285 would become a midgame-lategame choice and not an early burst them all choice, and like that we could see a buff over the AP numbers of all AP core items again, even over Ludens itself, so it could gain 100 AP once again.

23 Comments

luckmallory6 votes

You haven't been playing long enough if you think Luden's is anywhere near as broken as DFG.

Also, Mages are in a terrible spot right now. Nerfing another one of their items is definitely not the way to go

Cherysse1 votes

{quoted}

You haven't been playing long enough if you think Luden's is anywhere near as broken as DFG.

Also, Mages are in a terrible spot right now. Nerfing another one of their items is definitely not the way to go

DFG was broken as hell, I know, but it was core for only certain champs, now most AP champs use Ludens, and they became dependent on it, it made all their numbers go up! and that is why Riot nerfed all the ap core choices.

Yes, mages are in a terrible spot now, I am not denying that. What I am saying is that they are in that spot because of Luden's impact over the whole mage gameplay. It adds too much early burst power to their kit, which caused Riot to nerf all the AP core choices now.

If they attack Ludens early power the numbers of all the mages will go down for sure, YES, but they will have to buff once again all of the AP core choices.

Ludens should become less of an OP early choice and more of a midgame-lategame choice.

luckmallory4 votes

Yes, mages are in a terrible spot now, I am not denying that. What I am saying is that they are in that spot because of Luden's impact over the whole mage gameplay.

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

Cherysse1 votes

How old are you seriusly?... when Ludens was released they shortly after reduced the AP over all the AP core choices because Ludens made all the mage deal way more damage, and now it is even more nerfed, and even like that Ludens is still a good choice due to the fact it adds flat damage and early snowball... whatever, u are not going to see it, you are just trolling me instead of trying to see what I am saying.

Ill go use item 3040 and item 3089 :D

luckmallory2 votes

They did not nerf AP items because of ludens. Go back to bronze kid

Icestar11864 votes

This is nothing but a standard "OMG THIS IS BROKEN SEE IT DOES THINGS" thread. Move along, nothing to see here.

To address the main concern of the thread, Deathfire was MANDATORY on all AP assassins or burst mages. Ludens is USEFUL on most poke mages.

Cherysse1 votes

You are not seeing what Im saying do you? They nerfed all of the AP items because of Ludens.. since Ludens was released the AP items were nerfed.

Icestar11864 votes

Correlation =/= causation. The AP itemization rebalance happened several patches after Luden's was released. Would you say that Kindred was the sole cause of the preseason changes? It's equivalent to the comparison you're making.

Brutalitops013 votes

Luden's is nowhere near to as bad as DFG. Here's what DFG caused: Leblanc would rush it first item. As soon as she got it, she could DFG active into a Q W combo and kill her lane opponent, maybe level 5 or 6, if she was farming well, in about 0.04 seconds. Ahri, since she still had bonus magic damage on charm, could DFG + Charm + Q her opponent for an instakill in the same level range. That wasn't as bad as LB's, but only because it was skillshot oriented for the burst. If Ekko had existed while DFG was a thing, he would be able to W from fog of war, essentially making it unblockable, DFG E Q for what's pretty close to an instant kill in the same level range. Fizz is another good example. Throw ult at you, E to block your burst combo, DFG while still on the pole E off Q. Now you're dead with no counterplay. And you haven't hated that item until you've been DFG + R Q W by Annie. The reason they removed DFG wasn't dependence, but more because the item gave the standard burst mage's burst combo, many of which lacked counterplay other than simply surviving it (and since they generally didn't have the burst to kill an enemy with a full combo in laning phase, surviving it wasn't hard) and gave them the extra little bit of damage that they needed to turn a full burst combo into forcing the enemy out of lane into killing them in a fraction of a second. I don't see Luden's in every middle lane build. In fact, I main mid and jungle and I don't build the item until item my last few items, if I build it at all. And why is that while it's strong, there are just better options. Going to be casting a lot in lane and need mana? Also want to get a ton of AP for it? Get a Tear, build that into Archangel's a few items later. Feel like you can easily get fed? Start the new item 1082 , then put that into a Mejai's first back. Want some AP early? Maybe you do want to go for a Luden's or a Deathcap first item. Want some defensive stats? Go for a Rod of Ages. There are so many better options for early game that it's just not that good to go for a first or second item Luden's Echo on most champions. Mages need BUFFS not nerfs, so that they can keep up with ADCs. Right now, meta has too many ADCs, and why is because their items are BROKEN, armor got nerfed last season, and AP item's rework was basically a mass nerf of everything AP champions did while simultaneously buffing MR. To say that Luden's is OP... You can't viably say that. You're level 10. You haven't played against the true bustedness that was DFG. Let's say you rushed Luden's (100 AP) and you had about 40 AP across runes and masteries. Now you have 140 AP. You can deal 100 + 10% of 140 (14) damage to up to 4 targets on your next ability. That's not that much. DFG's active had a 35% increase to all magic damage dealt to the target. Yes, that's right,THIRTY-FIVE PERCENT. To compare Luden's to DFG is like comparing any AP mid laner to a Yasuo mid, or someone along those lines. Especially with the preseason including a mass buff to AD items, you're going to see a lot of AD mid laners surfacing, not AP. Luden's, and other AP items, will not be used at all, because AP champions will not be being used. Need some magic damage? New Corki can handle all the magic damage you need, while building full AD and taking full advantage of the new items! No need for AP champions for magic damage anymore! And, since, in comparison to the new AD items, their items are extremely underpowered, you really aren't going to be using them at all anyways!

Brutalitops013 votes

And I've been playing since Season 1. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to playing against burst mages with DFG, because I did. Compare the two, with actual information on DFG, and you find that Luden's is NOTHING compared to DFG.

Cherysse1 votes

{quoted}

And I've been playing since Season 1. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to playing against burst mages with DFG, because I did. Compare the two, with actual information on DFG, and you find that Luden's is NOTHING compared to DFG.

I am not saying mages need a nerf (they need a buff), I am saying they got nerfed because Ludens helped the mages to get more damage than before (in general) and that is why we have all the nerfed AP items, so if we are up to have them buffed again then Ludens should be nerfed a bit, as it is a strong choice to burst enemies over the early game, even if it isnt as strong as DFG (which is true).

If we are up to have AP items buffed again then Ludens should be nerfed a bit to have it all balanced, thats what I am saying.

Cherysse1 votes

I think I will redo this thread with a different approach u.u

NO NOW2 votes

I was willing to take you seriously until I saw that you're level 10. You've been level 10 since Deathfire Grasp was in the game? Unreal, there's something fishy going on here. More fishy than Fizz

Cherysse1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Resurrect Brand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n7sFA8wZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-11-17T17:47:01.833+0000)

I was willing to take you seriously until I saw that you're level 10. You've been level 10 since Deathfire Grasp was in the game? Unreal, there's something fishy going on here. More fishy than Fizz

This is my forum account... I have other accounts, I am a LANT player... Leus on LAN.

DJ Di01 votes

You're saying Ludens Echo is OP?

Cherysse1 votes

I am saying it is not doing what it was intended to do, it adds too much early power and still scales well into late game. I am saying that all of these nerf over all of the AP items are because of Ludens. I am saying that if they nerf Ludens early power they have to buff all of the other AP Core items again.

Mech20001 votes

Yes, mages needed more nerfs this season. Not like there aren't any bigger problems right now.

item 3508

Cherysse1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, mages needed more nerfs this season. Not like there aren't any bigger problems right now.

item 3508

MEH, I am saying that if they nerf Ludens they will have to buff all the other AP items again, and Ludens will gain extra damage over the late game just like Stattik does now (50% more), mainly because the effect Ludens as over the early game is too strong.

Abyssphere1 votes

Why does Luden's being popular mean it's toxic?

Cherysse1 votes

It is not about it being popular, it is about one thing; It was relesed, all the ap numbers went up, shortly after all of the AP core items were nerfed. Now the AP items are even more nerfed, Ludens had a very strong impact over the mage gameplay and now they nerfed most of the ap choices because of that.

If they attack Ludens to make it into a midgame lategame choice instead of an early burst snowball choice it would allow Riot to buff once again the AP CORE item choices, instead of just nerfing them all.

LadyRenly1 votes

Ludens is not broken in the slightest. Not everyone buys it, either.

Cherysse1 votes

I am not saying it is broken... read the comments...

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