no other class comes close to their power level. Jax with the least amount of gold (aside from the support) was the best champion in the game.
I got 1 kill as garen against gp and 1v5'd the game. With an 0/8 bot lane and a fed opponent adc.
Fed orianna? What does it matter when jax 1 shots her.
Sure you have the oddball adc thats broken. Like vayne and ez.
By and large bruisers are the best class in the games hands down.
dunder kill2 votes1/10
Ahristocats5 votesyou're really kind if you give 1 to this
zarxus12341 votes[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n6fxOzuN,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-01-10T18:21:23.917+0000)
you're really kind if you give 1 to this
dont you complain about janna being op? Because thats a joke. Or is it the other way around?
redniwediS2 votesSo, a while back Riot put an updated champion classification system out. It better grouped champions by their strengths, weaknesses, and Riot's balancing philosophy. What the community called "bruiser" was split up into Juggernauts, Divers, and Skirmishers. Bruiser wasn't even a class in the old system, it was a community term for champions with the primary class Fighter and the secondary class Tank, but was used to cover any Fighter that built defensive items, even if it's only because of a meta shift.
I'd highly suggest using the new terms if you're going to talk about champion classes.
From the look of that game you didn't really do anything of note outside of top lane. You got three kills against GP way up top, and three kills inside the enemy base. I wouldn't call this 1v5ing. By the 10 minute mark you had 47 CS, which really shows what skill level we're talking about here (perfect CS is 100 at 10 minutes, you lost around half of all minions you could have gotten).
You played a Juggernaut in a matchup that is favorable to him, at a skill level where his weaknesses are not easily abused by your opponents.
Jax is a Skirmisher, which is a subclass of Assassin, and is the perfect example of a duelist. Once he gets a core item or two it doesn't really matter how much gold he has, particularly if you try and 1v1 him.
That game is honestly a horrible example of which champion classes are strong. I don't mean for any of this to sound insulting, but as a Garen main who has to deal with opponents who actually know Garen's weaknesses I get a little uppity when people call his "class" one of the best right now.
zarxus12341 votesSo, a while back Riot put an updated champion classification system out. It better grouped champions by their strengths, weaknesses, and Riot's balancing philosophy. What the community called "bruiser" was split up into Juggernauts, Divers, and Skirmishers. Bruiser wasn't even a class in the old system, it was a community term for champions with the primary class Fighter and the secondary class Tank, but was used to cover any Fighter that built defensive items, even if it's only because of a meta shift.
I'd highly suggest using the new terms if you're going to talk about champion classes.
From the look of that game you didn't really do anything of note outside of top lane. You got three kills against GP way up top, and three kills inside the enemy base. I wouldn't call this 1v5ing. By the 10 minute mark you had 47 CS, which really shows what skill level we're talking about here (perfect CS is 100 at 10 minutes, you lost around half of all minions you could have gotten).
You played a Juggernaut in a matchup that is favorable to him, at a skill level where his weaknesses are not easily abused by your opponents.
Jax is a Skirmisher, which is a subclass of Assassin, and is the perfect example of a duelist. Once he gets a core item or two it doesn't really matter how much gold he has, particularly if you try and 1v1 him.
That game is honestly a horrible example of which champion classes are strong. I don't mean for any of this to sound insulting, but as a Garen main who has to deal with opponents who actually know Garen's weaknesses I get a little uppity when people call his "class" one of the best right now.
lol. Bruisers are like jax yasuo garen renekton j4 olaf champs like that. If you are going to try and divide it into "that champion isnt technically called bruiser its a diver with a sub class assassin i dont know what to tell you. Jax is the typical definition of a bruiser.
That garen game is a perfect example. I dont know how to play garen. I was the highest level in that game. I pressed q e r and killed almost anyone. I literally ran into their team 1v5 and didnt die while tanking tower shots. You get slightly ahead you steam rolled game.
The last game jax had the least amount of gold and was the most influential champion in the game. That is broken.
I can show you a challenger game where some people have like 30 cs at the 10 minute mark. Does that mean they are secretly bronze? Thats a really bad argument.
NemeBro1 voteslol. Bruisers are like jax yasuo garen renekton j4 olaf champs like that. If you are going to try and divide it into "that champion isnt technically called bruiser its a diver with a sub class assassin i dont know what to tell you. Jax is the typical definition of a bruiser.
That garen game is a perfect example. I dont know how to play garen. I was the highest level in that game. I pressed q e r and killed almost anyone. I literally ran into their team 1v5 and didnt die while tanking tower shots. You get slightly ahead you steam rolled game.
The last game jax had the least amount of gold and was the most influential champion in the game. That is broken.
I can show you a challenger game where some people have like 30 cs at the 10 minute mark. Does that mean they are secretly bronze? Thats a really bad argument.
You're silver 1. What happens in games filled with unskilled players who don't know what they are doing is irrelevant when talking about game balance.
redniwediS2 voteslol. Bruisers are like jax yasuo garen renekton j4 olaf champs like that.
No. You can use whatever homebrew term you want, but the official terms are accurate and useful for their purpose. Ignorance does not make your preferred term correct, because in no world should Jax and Garen be considered to have the same balancing standard.
I dont know how to play garen.
And your opponents did not know how to play Garen, and you didn't get a single kill in the jungle, mid lane, or bot lane. I hate to say it but I suddenly sympathize with those diamond players who say low elo opinions don't matter, and I'm one of those low elo people.
Garen does not typically steamroll, particularly not against skilled opponents. Keep playing him and you'll learn that the hard way. I mean this, keep playing him, I want you to learn the hard way why that is not a good example of a Garen game.
zarxus12341 votesNo. You can use whatever homebrew term you want, but the official terms are accurate and useful for their purpose. Ignorance does not make your preferred term correct, because in no world should Jax and Garen be considered to have the same balancing standard.
And your opponents did not know how to play Garen, and you didn't get a single kill in the jungle, mid lane, or bot lane. I hate to say it but I suddenly sympathize with those diamond players who say low elo opinions don't matter, and I'm one of those low elo people.
Garen does not typically steamroll, particularly not against skilled opponents. Keep playing him and you'll learn that the hard way. I mean this, keep playing him, I want you to learn the hard way why that is not a good example of a Garen game.
you are so oblivious. me being silver 1 has nothing to do with me tanking 4 turret shots and the enemy team at the end of the game. Those are raw undisputed numbers. It doesnt change the fact that i got slightly ahead and was able to charge in 1v5.
Fine then you are going to flame me for being silver 1 because you have no argument. Go to this dudes last stream and watch the game for your self and how shut down he was. https://www.twitch.tv/yassuo you can literally go to the last game he played and see how broken yasou is. If that was a tank/adc/ap mage/ support they would have been out of that game.
You dont like that game fine. Go watch hashinshin stream and watch and he feeds relentlessly every game as jax. And magically once he hits 3 items he turns into a monster and is able to start 1v2 and 1v3 when he has LESS GOLD. That is imbalanced.
redniwediS1 votesYour rank is irrelevant, I agree and I never said it mattered. What matters here is your experience with the game.
You dont like that game fine. Go watch hashinshin stream and watch and he feeds relentlessly every game as jax. And magically once he hits 3 items he turns into a monster and is able to start 1v2 and 1v3 when he has LESS GOLD. That is imbalanced.
That's Jax, and has been Jax since he was added to the game. Again, lack of experience directs your opinion. If you want to actually talk about this I'd be happy to, and I'd be happy to share my own experiences with you, but if you're just going to accuse me of flame I'm not going to bother.
Go to this dudes last stream and watch the game for your self and how shut down he was. https://www.twitch.tv/yassuo you can literally go to the last game he played and see how broken yasou is.
Yasuo and Jax are in the same champion class, you know. There's a pattern here, and it has everything to do with the class system. This is why Riot doesn't use blanket terms like Bruiser, because Bruiser covers so many champions you can't make an accurate statement about the group. Skirmishers can be very, very shut down, but once they get their core items must be treated as a legitimate threat.
you are so oblivious. me being silver 1 has nothing to do with me tanking 4 turret shots and the enemy team at the end of the game. Those are raw undisputed numbers. It doesnt change the fact that i got slightly ahead and was able to charge in 1v5.
No one is disputing them because they don't matter. Towers can't kite and don't have armor pen, and the same can be said for the team you were fighting. Garen's weaknesses were not abused that game, and so you were able to steamroll. All I'm saying is if you had actual experience with Garen you wouldn't be making these claims about his type of champion being strong right now. You got lucky.
zarxus12341 votesYour rank is irrelevant, I agree and I never said it mattered. What matters here is your experience with the game.
That's Jax, and has been Jax since he was added to the game. Again, lack of experience directs your opinion. If you want to actually talk about this I'd be happy to, and I'd be happy to share my own experiences with you, but if you're just going to accuse me of flame I'm not going to bother.
Yasuo and Jax are in the same champion class, you know. There's a pattern here, and it has everything to do with the class system. This is why Riot doesn't use blanket terms like Bruiser, because Bruiser covers so many champions you can't make an accurate statement about the group. Skirmishers can be very, very shut down, but once they get their core items must be treated as a legitimate threat.
No one is disputing them because they don't matter. Towers can't kite and don't have armor pen, and the same can be said for the team you were fighting. Garen's weaknesses were not abused that game, and so you were able to steamroll. All I'm saying is if you had actual experience with Garen you wouldn't be making these claims about his type of champion being strong right now. You got lucky.
im confused. You say i dont have game knowledge because i specifically say jax does what jax does? I use jax and yasuo and those are 2 of the streamers i watch. The same thing applies to garen, darius, olaf and riven. But jax and yasuo have it a whole lot easier than those champions.
Im not going to list every champ when i can just say bruiser and you know what i mean by it. And if you can give me another term that defines... tankiness with dueling potential. I will use that instead of brusiers.
redniwediS1 votesim confused. You say i dont have game knowledge because i specifically say jax does what jax does?
No, I say you don't have game knowledge because your comments show very basic mistakes and assumptions. I've played this game since season 1, I used to hold ideas like that, but I've had the time to outgrow them. I know you will as well, which is why I said I really want you to play Garen more.
Im not going to list every champ when i can just say bruiser and you know what i mean by it. And if you can give me another term that defines... tankiness with dueling potential. I will use that instead of brusiers.
The three champion classes covered by "bruiser" are Juggernaut, Skirmisher, and Diver. You don't have to list every champion, there are already neatly tied groups for you to use by name.
Jax, Riven and Yasuo are Skirmishers. They have high damage, decent utility, and tools in their kit that boost their survivability without directly needing defensive items. They are the duelists of the game, and can snowball out of control if their power spikes are not respected. Even if they fall behind they can still make a huge comeback. Depending on the strength of defensive items they can make great use of very tanky builds, but generally prefer offensive items.
Garen, Darius and Olaf are Juggernauts. They have high damage, high defense, limited utility and have to walk directly at you in order to do anything. Their only mobility comes from raw movement speed, and in one rare case (Shyvana) a dash tied to an ultimate. They are offensive powerhouses that are difficult to kill in small fights, but can still be focused down in a full teamfight. Juggernauts are fantastic at punishing mistakes, and make great secondary initiators, but do not have the tools to be the main initiator on a team. Juggernatus can duel, but are outclassed by Skirmishers in this regard and don't bounce back as hard when they fall behind.
zarxus12341 votesNo, I say you don't have game knowledge because your comments show very basic mistakes and assumptions. I've played this game since season 1, I used to hold ideas like that, but I've had the time to outgrow them. I know you will as well, which is why I said I really want you to play Garen more.
The three champion classes covered by "bruiser" are Juggernaut, Skirmisher, and Diver. You don't have to list every champion, there are already neatly tied groups for you to use by name.
Jax, Riven and Yasuo are Skirmishers. They have high damage, decent utility, and tools in their kit that boost their survivability without directly needing defensive items. They are the duelists of the game, and can snowball out of control if their power spikes are not respected. Even if they fall behind they can still make a huge comeback. Depending on the strength of defensive items they can make great use of very tanky builds, but generally prefer offensive items.
Garen, Darius and Olaf are Juggernauts. They have high damage, high defense, limited utility and have to walk directly at you in order to do anything. Their only mobility comes from raw movement speed, and in one rare case (Shyvana) a dash tied to an ultimate. They are offensive powerhouses that are difficult to kill in small fights, but can still be focused down in a full teamfight. Juggernauts are fantastic at punishing mistakes, and make great secondary initiators, but do not have the tools to be the main initiator on a team. Juggernatus can duel, but are outclassed by Skirmishers in this regard and don't bounce back as hard when they fall behind.
When you say my comment shows a lack of game knowledge and don't point out what exact part of the comment you are talking about or dont elaborate and explain, that does nothing to change my mind. Im really interested in knowing how that shows a lack of game knowledge when its true.
When i say bruisers it pretty much covers those 3 sub classes. You are pretty much saying i can never use the term bruiser ever. But thats not really the issue here.
But i dont see how you can say my lack of game knowledge is why i think bruisers are op. You can go to my last game and see the gold distribution. The jax had the least gold. He had a poor game. But because he got his items (while still being behind in gold) he was the biggest threat on both teams.
If i fall behind as shaco im still fucked for the rest of the game. Do you not see the double standard there? Im kind of focusing in on jax because he is the easiest to use to try and explain but that applies to the other champions as well.
redniwediS1 votesYou are pretty much saying i can never use the term bruiser ever.
You didn't just use the term. Look at your threads title, you called it a class. There's a big difference between talking about a class and talking about "champions like X".
When you say my comment shows a lack of game knowledge and don't point out what exact part of the comment you are talking about or dont elaborate and explain, that does nothing to change my mind. Im really interested in knowing how that shows a lack of game knowledge when its true.
It is not true that these champions are, as you said, some of the best in the game right now. Riot is looking into adding a new Keystone rune to the game specifically to help these champions. That is not something that is done to help the strongest champion groups.
You didn't just call these guys overpowered, you said they are the best. A champion can be broken power wise, but still have enough weaknesses that their too strong strengths are outclassed in the majority of their games.
You keep saying Jax had the least gold, and I keep saying Skirmishers are godly in their ability to jump back into the game after being put down. This is typical and shouldn't be surprising. I'm listening to you on this, I looked at your game, now you should listen to me.
Shaco isn't like Jax. Shaco doesn't get to make comebacks, and has a stronger early game to make up for a poor late game. Shaco is not a Skirmisher, so trying to compare him to a Skirmisher is not going to work. There is no double standard here, there is only you not understanding champion classes and what they mean.
zarxus12341 votesYou didn't just use the term. Look at your threads title, you called it a class. There's a big difference between talking about a class and talking about "champions like X".
It is not true that these champions are, as you said, some of the best in the game right now. Riot is looking into adding a new Keystone rune to the game specifically to help these champions. That is not something that is done to help the strongest champion groups.
You didn't just call these guys overpowered, you said they are the best. A champion can be broken power wise, but still have enough weaknesses that their too strong strengths are outclassed in the majority of their games.
You keep saying Jax had the least gold, and I keep saying Skirmishers are godly in their ability to jump back into the game after being put down. This is typical and shouldn't be surprising. I'm listening to you on this, I looked at your game, now you should listen to me.
Shaco isn't like Jax. Shaco doesn't get to make comebacks, and has a stronger early game to make up for a poor late game. Shaco is not a Skirmisher, so trying to compare him to a Skirmisher is not going to work. There is no double standard here, there is only you not understanding champion classes and what they mean.
You think riot has a decent balance team? I look at you vayne.
You are ignoring what im saying. You are so caught up in this terminology. Thats not a bruiser thats a juggernaut. Thats not a juggernaut thats a skirmisher. You go to the jax thing, and that is whats broken. Them having less gold and being able to perform is broken. You say thats what a skirmisher does and thats broken. That is whats busted about them. That is why they are too good. I understand what they do. I understand what they are designed to do.
If im a 10 kill shaco i should be able to kill a 3 kill jax. If there is a 10 kill adc... they should be able to kill a 3 kill jax. Gold should mean something. Me being more fed and having more gold means i should be more of a threat than you. But that isn't what happens.
Last game i played i was a 6 kill shaco against a 1 kill nasus. The nasus killed me under my tower and thats broken. A keystone isnt going to change that. Thats the whole problem. Luckily our garen 1v5'd that game.
Now imagine if that was a 6 kill nasus. He would just run free on the whole map charging in 1v5. Thats why "bruisers" are broken. The same thing applies to jax. If a jax got 6 early kills you may as well ff at 15.
redniwediS1 votesYou're ignoring balancing trends and philosophy in favor of your own opinion. I never said Riot was doing a decent job at balancing anything, yet you think I did because I disagree with you.
You are ignoring what im saying.
I've responded to everything you've said. If you want to keep talking once you have time to cool down let me know, otherwise I have no real reason to keep talking if you're going ignore what I an saying while claiming the opposite.
Every point you've made I've already replied to, so I recommend you scroll up before saying the same things again and again. Good luck.
Luckily our garen 1v5'd that game.
He had six kills and never left top lane, he didn't 1v5.
A keystone isnt going to change that.
The keystone isn't for champions like Shaco, it's for the champions you think are too strong, because Riot and others see them as too weak. Go reread what I said, you got it backward.
zarxus12341 votesI wasn't referring to shaco when i mentioned the key stone. No matter what key stone they add the nasus will still be able to kill me under my tower.
You say im not listening to you. I am.
You say this "You keep saying Jax had the least gold, and I keep saying Skirmishers are godly in their ability to jump back into the game after being put down. This is typical and shouldn't be surprising. I'm listening to you on this, I looked at your game, now you should listen to me."
And that is why they are broken. And its even worse when they get ahead. A 1 kill nasus should not be able to kill me under my tower when i have 6 kills.
This is a good meme.
