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The problem with ap supports

chipndip1··8 votes·1,347 views

All the best item effects and stat combos mainly favor tank supports. Tank supports may not get AS tanky as top lane tanks, but they fully appreciate building tanky aura items and health boosting support items. AP supports want ap, but all the ap giving support items suck either in effect, stats, or both:

item 3110 Great item for tanks

item 3222 No ap here, but the effect is extremely valuable

item 3190 Another amazing effect...too bad there's no ap here

item 2049 Mandatory for every support...only gives health...

item 3800 No ap here either...

item 3069 So we have 2 "team speed up" items that tanks like...and not a single one that gives ap...huh...

Meanwhile...

item 3504 This item is garbage. The odds of the 15% attack speed boost and the 30 magic damage per hit being truly influential like other items could be are extremely low.

item 3060 This is like...one of two ap support items that don't suck.

item 3050 This is the other one...

item 3023 Nice stats, but the effect is ultimately lousy. Most supports already have one means or another to catch runners. If this had some effect that was...better...it'd be a good item given the stats, even if you nerfed the ap down to 60.

item 3092 This is literally just a lousier, cheaper Twin Shadows. Better to sit on the tier one than to build this, then replace it with anything else if the game's going on for THAT long...even Twin Shadows...

Itemization for ap using supports is lacking in comparison to tanky supports, who, if they wanted, could even pick up a Banner or a Zeke's since they scale with ap too (someone like Naut or Blitz wouldn't mind too much if they bought one of those). AP supports, however, become useless with tank items because they'll hit like paper and paperclips while still being EXTREMELY susceptible to being blown out of the water if caught. There needs to be better item stat/effect combos for ap supports.

27 Comments

Nick Valentine2 votes

Your "ap items" list is something I would consider using on Janna or Sona in serious play. Any AP heavy supports looking to get ap should stick to their flat ap mid lane builds. item 3157 item 3089 item 3165 + item 2049

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cinderella Eyes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5M0sTG7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-30T18:42:08.471+0000)

Your "ap items" list is something I would consider using on Janna or Sona in serious play. Any AP heavy supports looking to get ap should stick to their flat ap mid lane builds. item 3157 item 3089 item 3165 + item 2049

Are you saying you would get them on Janna and Sona or you'd get D.Cap and Morello's?

50000000000000001 votes

Janna and Sona both have their utilities scale with AP. Janna's shield strength and AD scale with AP, and the MS passive/slow also scale with AP. Sona's MS scale with AP.

I'd also get it on Soraka, so that she can heal more reliably. Also, Ardent Censer is core on Soraka. It basically gives the ADC permanent 15% AS and 30 magic damage on-hit. The AS boost is also helpful for taking down objectives.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Janna and Sona both have their utilities scale with AP. Janna's shield strength and AD scale with AP, and the MS passive/slow also scale with AP. Sona's MS scale with AP.

I'd also get it on Soraka, so that she can heal more reliably. Also, Ardent Censer is core on Soraka. It basically gives the ADC permanent 15% AS and 30 magic damage on-hit. The AS boost is also helpful for taking down objectives.

You do realize you started talking about Ardent Censor without saying "Ardent Censor"...right? You just started with "it"...

Anywho, Ardent Censor, unlike the other items, only really finds a place with Soraka. Nearly anyone else has better options.

50000000000000001 votes

Oops, I meant Rabadon's for Soraka.

Marthian2 votes

Sona loves Ardent Censor, it's so easy to apply to her entire team.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Sona loves Ardent Censor, it's so easy to apply to her entire team.

But the bonus it provides is entirely shit, so why would you?

Marthian1 votes

15% attack speed = 450g 30 on-hit damage = 600g If 1 on-hit damage is valued at 20g per point (1 AD is valued at 36g)

It provides 1050g worth of free stats to whoever is affected by the passive. Ardent Censor is already 105%~ gold efficient, each ally hit makes it 50%~ more gold efficient.

The stats are not shit, they are amazing, especially for pushing.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

15% attack speed = 450g 30 on-hit damage = 600g If 1 on-hit damage is valued at 20g per point (1 AD is valued at 36g)

It provides 1050g worth of free stats to whoever is affected by the passive. Ardent Censor is already 105%~ gold efficient, each ally hit makes it 50%~ more gold efficient.

The stats are not shit, they are amazing, especially for pushing.

You can look at it like this, or realize that your adc coupled with other team mates can push hard enough on their own. The value is fine, but it's being allocated to the dumbest of things.

If you really need to push, just get a Banner.

Marthian1 votes

Why not both? And unless your ADC has capped AS (and your team mates too), it WILL help.

There is no such thing as having enough pushing power.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Why not both? And unless your ADC has capped AS (and your team mates too), it WILL help.

There is no such thing as having enough pushing power.

  1. Finite slots for items

  2. Ardent also gives crap stats

Marthian2 votes
  1. Terrible excuse, if you need more pushing power, why not?
  1. Ardent Censor is already 105%~ gold efficient.

Let's just keep ignoring facts shall we? It's 2100g, which again, is extremely cheap for what it gives: 40 AP, CDR, Mana regen, Movement speed, and 1050g worth of stats to allies affected by heals.

Starting to think you don't read my posts or actually do research (Sona's highest win rate builds have Ardent Censor on it. It's a niche item, it isn't supposed to be taken by every support.)

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

But the bonus it provides is entirely shit, so why would you?

Giving her whole team bonus AS is amazing for taking down towers.

Nekusen2 votes

why list item 3050 as an item that doesn't suck ? item 3023 has a much better active

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

why list item 3050 as an item that doesn't suck ? item 3023 has a much better active

50% crit on your adc or AA heavy melee champs + ap for mages is worse than a stupid ghost set on a potentially long cd?

CoffeeDave2 votes

{quoted}

50% crit on your adc or AA heavy melee champs + ap for mages is worse than a stupid ghost set on a potentially long cd?

The Ghosts can be used to scout ahead for you, if they don't find anyone, they return and lower the CD to use it again sooner. I like to use it in games where I'm the only one warding and we need to see where the enemy team is. Just pop it in the jungle and watch them go.

Edit: to clarify, still talking about item 3023

Marthian1 votes

item 3504 is only useful on Sona (and she uses it very well. If it was crap, then why are a lot of the top high win rate builds for her building it?)

Reaper Soraka1 votes

I like it on Raka and Janna as well when my adc is Vayne Kali or Jinx.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

I like it on Raka and Janna as well when my adc is Vayne Kali or Jinx.

And Karma isn't too shabby with it.

DazedOnlooker1 votes

My go to build --> Sona item 1332 item 3092 item 3190 item 3504 item 3157(item 3222 if the enemy team CC is cancer) then either item 3003, item 3174, or item 3100. and any gold i have left over il just end up picking up item 2139 for a small increase in utility damage.

AP items are considered a luxury for me, usually my games never last long enough for me to be able to build any ap heavy items, especially if my team is losing. and some of my core item choices may have a bit of ap in it, but the damage i get from having so little of it means squat if the other team is only tickled from it. i feels like you should either go full ap, or full utility, hybrid seems like a pretty bad one to go for now and days. :/

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

The real problem is people's unexplainable desire to take support items on AP supports. AP Supports have all the utility they need built into their kit.

Sightstone + gold item = only support items you need.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5M0sTG7,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-08-30T20:43:39.792+0000)

The real problem is people's unexplainable desire to take support items on AP supports. AP Supports have all the utility they need built into their kit.

Sightstone + gold item = only support items you need.

Because you want to scale. Tank supports get to scale because stuff like Locket of the Iron Solari doesn't just increase their ability to support, it increases their tankiness. They get to soak up more damage.

AP supports can't improve their utility and their core function (i.e. scaling with AP) at the same time.

RottedApples1 votes

It's not that they favor tanks, It's just that the ap support items either suck, or are useful on any support regardless of them being ap or not. (hi zeke's)

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

It's not that they favor tanks, It's just that the ap support items either suck, or are useful on any support regardless of them being ap or not. (hi zeke's)

All the ones that fit the latter description have no ap on them, save Zeke's and Banner, and Banner still gives 200 health and some mr...

just RIGHT nOw1 votes

Good to know and point proven. I was just thinking about this as I have been playing support in ranked the last couple games. I'll get in touch with some RIOT employees and DISCUSS some better items out there for next season. Every season is just getting better and better so expect changes. I know what they should exactly put to have better stamina out there and better AP to match out those tanks. I'm now on the forums and looking to improve League.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

If you think item 3504 is a bad item you either never play support or don't understand how much the item does.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Twin Shadows I think is actually really good.

How I see it is that it is a 3k gold item for 2.4k gold. It's stats are really good, and the active is pretty good too (semi-global slow/vision active is really good).

I was using it on some AP champions in the mid lane for a while, and even though I had mixed results with it I thought it worked pretty well.

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