"Counter-picks" in Bronze are my favorite

EkkoFroffles··17 votes·4,858 views

I'm sure there have been innumerable threads on this very topic, but another thread can't hurt because it still doesn't seem to have sunk in for most players in low ELOs. Case in point, I have played 117 matches with Garen this season, and 16 were against a Teemo, with most of those insta-locks after I'd already picked Garen.

The next highest total is Darius, another "counter," with 9 (4-5). Pantheon, also on the list of "counters," is up there too with 7 (3-4). I'm not happy with my sub-50% win rates against the latter two, but in lane, where I should be "countered" most, I still tend to win more often than not.

Anyway, back to Teemo, I see him almost twice as much as Darius and my win rate is 75% (12-4). Even more glaring is the KDA discrepancy between us. Me: 173/45/167 (7.56). Him: 133/163/127 (1.60). I average 2.8 deaths per match. He averages just over 10. 5 of those 16 matches, I was "perfect," not even a single death.

Like my last match, when I went against someone who, sadly enough, appears to be a Teemo main with 82 matches and a 50% win rate. I won lane handily enough to cause Teemo and Cho'Gath to lane swap, finishing 9/0/0 with a double kill. Teemo finished 2/9/1. He came near killing me once (survived with 3 HP), but that was only because I went in with my E still on CD, and worst case scenario we kill one another there.

It's because of matches like this that I will literally beg for a Teemo when I pick Garen. At this point, I know the matchup better, and am more comfortable in it, than any other. And that right there is why counters aren't really a thing in low ELOs. As long as you know your champ well (i.e., better than your opponent knows his) and don't go in with a defeatist attitude, more often than not you'll come out victorious. Basically, at low ELO, it's more you "countering" yourself than anything.

To illustrate this, my absolute worst match-up is Riven (1-5). Yes, one of the champions Garen counters. Next worst is Nasus, another champion I'm supposed to counter, at 2-4. Though that one generally goes like so: 1) I win lane 2) I roam to assist other lanes 3) Nasus farms up his Q 4) Nasus joins his team and bad things happen 5) We lose. When I see either champion, my confidence drops. Though that's partly because, with both, you can win lane and still be screwed. Riven can just go feed on your teammates, even if you ping them a half dozen times that she's missing and to be careful, and Nasus can just AFK farm his way to relevance.

Still, like I said, "counters" in low ELOs are all in your head. With enough experience and skill, you can win any matchup. So, go ahead and keep picking Teemo into my Garen. Heck, give me a Pantheon, Darius, Kennen, or just about any of my "counters." I'd rather that than a Riven or Nasus who knows what they're doing.

73 Comments

djjomon3 votes

Good Garens are scary. I've lost to several Garens that I thought I'd be countering. And I've beaten Teemos and whatnot as Garen. And hell, I don't play Garen too often. And since he's so easy, people expect him to lose.

So question for you, Garen main, runes, masteries, build paths, etc.? I wanna play him more, but I don't have the time, nor do I play top often enough to spend time optimizing him in normals lol.

And on the note of counter picks in Bronze in general, you're absolutely right. The skill matchup is more important than the champions. (Hell, my one-trick-pony friend plays MonkeyKing top in virtually every matchup, and he carried himself doing so). And I can't count the times I've seen someone counter themselves, or even, where I'd counterpick myself, and still win.

Laughing Fish1 votes

So question for you, Garen main, runes, masteries, build paths, etc.? I wanna play him more, but I don't have the time, nor do I play top often enough to spend time optimizing him in normals lol.

Runes: 9 Marks of flat AD, 9 Seals of flat armor, 9 Glyphs of scaling MR, 3 Quints of Movement speed (AS can be used for a more aggressive approach).

Masteries: Mostly defense (make sure to get recovery, perseverance, swiftness, and tenacious). Put 3 points in utility for the MS, and put any remaining points into offense for increased AS/AD.

(My preferred, if the situation allows it) Build (Tank vs AD): Start item 1029 +item 2003 + item 3340 . Get item 3068 > item 3111 > item 3083 > item 3065 >item 3143 > item 3026. (item 3075 May replace item 3143 or item 3026 if facing an AA heavy champ like Trynd)


Build (Aggressive vs AD) Start item 1036 +item 2003 +item 3340. Get item 3071 > item 3111 > item 3068 > item 3022 > item 3031 > item 3083 )


Build (vs heavy AP): Start item 1028 +item 2003 +item 3340. Get item 3065 > item 3111 > item 3083 > item 3068 > item 3026 > item 3512

djjomon1 votes

More or less how I was playing him, thanks! Is the Swiftness mastery necessary, since his Q removes slows anyway?

Laughing Fish2 votes

I find it very helpful. All that Tenacity, combined with his Q and swiftness makes it where he truly does not falter.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I'll echo most of this, though I go with AD Quints over MS. And I tend to skip the GA in favor of an IE or BC since usually the rest of my build is straight tank and I want the crits on my E. Aside from that, however, I don't see much to take issue with here.

Laughing Fish1 votes

item 3071 is certainly a good item. I used to build IE, but I find his damage always falls away no matter what I do. So I build him as relentless as possible, and slowly where them down so I can finish with my ult. Plus, I am usually playing the role of a pure tank with him, so I am focused on protecting my mid laner and ADC, which means I don't need a lot of damage, but I need crazy defence.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I usually am the tank, too. I act as meat shield, soaking up damage from turrets, skill shots, etc., and then pissing everyone on the enemy team off by escaping anyway with my HP regen, W, and the speed boosts from my Q and E. And leave me alone for very long and I'll probably punish you by taking a turret, or two if I have teleport up and two waves are pushed.

Laughing Fish2 votes

That is the Garen way. He just simply does not falter.

djjomon1 votes

{quoted}

I'll echo most of this, though I go with AD Quints over MS. And I tend to skip the GA in favor of an IE or BC since usually the rest of my build is straight tank and I want the crits on my E. Aside from that, however, I don't see much to take issue with here.

Agreed there. I use AD Quints because I suck at CSing. I'd use ArPen Reds if I were a bit better. My usual build path involves Cleaver 1st or 2nd, tank, 4th item or so IE, and more tank. I don't build anything flat health, because it's less efficient with his W passive.

Do you use the Swiftness mastery though?

[{quoted}](name=Laughing Fish,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n3fsh9iw,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-23T15:32:42.959+0000)

I find it very helpful. All that Tenacity, combined with his Q and swiftness makes it where he truly does not falter.

I personally feel it's wasted, as there are so many valuable areas of the defensive tree (that I'm not properly investing in).

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I tend to just follow guides for the masteries for any given champ, since I'm no good at choosing them myself, and the one I use (http://www.lolking.net/guides/170531) does include the Swiftness mastery, yes. But I forgot to mention that I go the standard 9/21 route, rather than putting any points in utility.

djjomon1 votes

I went on Probuilds, after checking the guide you link, and Laughing Fish linked. It looks like most of the 21/9/0 Masteries do use Swiftness. Personally, I think I'm still going without it. But as/if I play Garen more, I'll see if I wish I had it.

Thanks for all the advice, both of you!

Laughing Fish2 votes

Well, in your defense (no pun intended), the build I posted only agrees with me because I made the guide.

I Main Swain2 votes

as long as I'm still in low elo, I will almost always ban Nasus for exactly this reason. most people at my level (including myself) can't really prevent nasus from stacking beyond a relatively small extent.

Saianna2 votes

Somehow your post is disgusting for me.. I can't shake the feeling of you telling us something like this:

"LOOK GUYS! I beat bronze players (hue) with Garen and Darius (hue hue) cause bronzies dunno how to counter me (hue). They suck (hue). But I die vs Riven or Nasus. Counters much."

Dezz21 votes

If you arnt a good player counter picks do matter because you need as much help as you can. Sure if you are a good garen player and you feel confortable on the champ its fine but alot of bronze players dont have mains and it is way better to put the game in theyr favor by counter piking the ennemy. Btw you are bronze 5 so i would start counter picking if I were you.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I'm Bronze 5 because I'm not flexible, or at least wasn't until recently. Want proof?

Top: 86-75 (53%^). Jungle: 11-8 (58%). ADC: 2-1 (66%^^). Support: 8-23 (25%). Mid: 0-4 (0%).

^Played Wukong top, jungle, and mid, but mostly top, so rather than separate out his matches, I just lumped them all in top. Think he got me my only win mid lane, though. ^^Was carried to both wins.

Recently, however, I finally found some mid laners I'm comfortable with (Malzahar, Heimerdinger, Ahri, Lissandra), an ADC I can actually fulfill the duties of an ADC with (Graves), and a support I love (Nautilus). Plus I've started broadening my champion pool for top and jungle. For instance, I picked up Amumu and am 8-1 with him my first 9 matches.

So, no, counter-picking with champions I don't know is not going to do a damned thing when the only champions I'm comfortable enough with for ranked are not said counter-picks.

T RexHasLongLegs1 votes

Beyond that the issue is probably what you're playing. I'm not sure what you're playing top over 70-80 games but is it a bunch of different champions?

Every champion and every play style has their own best set of win conditions, as well as sort of the minimum basics to play them. I'll give ADC as an example because they tend to be more consistent, and although I don't play them (can't really) I know why and can explain it.

The minimum requirement to play adc is farming and dealing damage. If you don't cs well, don't orb walk, don't know how to use the mechanics of the kit, then you are below the level of even a bad ADC main. You can bring your ADC win rate up by just improving mechanics (my mechanics are the worst part of my game). However, to get a good win rate on ADC and carry your self up the ladder, eventually you need to learn ADC win conditions. On the simplest level it is "position well in team fights, and push objectives after wins." Dealing damage is great, but what separates a minimum level ADC from a good one is their ability to position. If you're complaining about peel in bronze and silver you should look at your play and figure out position errors. Teammates probably didn't peel well, but it's bronze, that's why they are in bronze, so instead you focus on your positioning and how to deal damage while staying safe, this skyrockets your damage out put because you don't die and are continuous damage. Increased damage leads to more team fights won where you're still alive from good positioning and then you just need to take towers and win..... your job as ADC isn't damage, your job is pushing towers. You probably do it the best on the team and no one cares if you don't do damage in a team fight if we still win the fight and we are able to push down 2 towers instead of 1 because you're alive and kill towers fast. That's ADC win condition.

When I jungle and support (if I'm playing well and really trying to climb rather than just trying to play something different bc I'm bored and don't care if it takes a little longer to climb if my team can't carry) I play Nunu and Janna. Their win condition is to not feed, control objectives (consume for drag/baron and tower/adc shield for pushing/stalling), and scale up to where they body guard whoever isn't doing terrible that game. (I may die in lane as Janna, but my overall KDA is over a 5 because I get SOOO many assists in team fights mid game since I can keep my team alive and even in a losing game we stall out, and I don't die mid game)

Heimer, my main for mid and top, does massive damage, but his win condition is still objectives and towers rather than kills. A lot of games my kills will be low, but my damage to champs is high because I push people off towers and take them w/ my turrets rather than fighting for kills, or I use turrets to zone at drag and they do damage but no kills because I want the objective and will worry about the kills after instead of before. My win rate on heimer is 65-70% over about 75 games this season, not because he does damage and carries, but because he drops towers, and when my team is struggling I can rotate to that lane, drop their tower, and then our jg can help the lane bc we have a tower and the enemy doesn't which is a huge advantage.

Pick a few champs and learn them the best instead of spreading out. You don't need to counter pick to get out of bronze, you need to learn to play one champ even half way decent for at least 3 or 4 roles (and one has to be support, if you aren't comfortable on at least one or two supports don't play ranked) and play to their win conditions. Don't play a role you aren't comfortable with (most cases people will let you support if you can't play a carry role for a particular lane) and don't play a champ you aren't comfortable with when you can play one you know really well.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

Garen, Wukong, and Malphite primarily. But the light switch just flipped on for my for Darius, so he'll be joining those ranks. Likewise, I see Lissandra joining them to increase my variety with some AP and CC.

In general, I've tried to keep my focus to a select few champs for each role, ones I know the "win conditions" for as you put it. For jungle, for example, I played nothing but Amumu for a couple days before taking him to ranked. My 8-1 record with him shows that was wise. Took the same approach with Naut support and won my first match going 0/8/23.

Mostly, though, it's all about finding champs I'm comfortable with. If I don't feel truly at home with a champ, no amount of practice will make me as much of a threat with them as with one I do. At the very least I want them to be fun so the grind of learning them isn't dreadful. Like Lee Sin. It'll be a while before I take him to ranked and can make LCS plays, but he's the funnest champ for me and even needing to improve with him I can still do some things. But with Sion, for instance, he's such a dumpster fire in my hands, and I hate him so much, that I don't feel like even bothering.

T RexHasLongLegs2 votes

See how you like Liss, if you like her I'd recommend trying to improve and main her. You can get the mechanics down and play mid OR top w/ her and that gives you a much better chance of playing the same champion frequently so you can focus on getting really good with her and getting out of bronze if you want to.

If you're good w/ amumu you have my support to run him every jungle game you can. I love that little guy, but my initiations on him have been pretty bad this season and I'm 0-4 on him I think lol. His hard engage is good in almost any team if you can avoid getting counter jungled and killed early, and you don't engage when your team can't follow up (IE if you flank them and your team is close that's great, if you bandage toss in and lock them down for the perfect engage but your teammate were even just slightly behind you and they had blown their gap closers recently and had them on cool down then not so great bc they have to walk and miss the chance to drop damage during your cc.)

My suggestion, and I hope you take this as being helpful and not an insult, is that you improve your support. I win a decent number of my support games and I think I was like 9-1 with annie support in bronze 3 when I started the season down there. A good utility support can make a bad team okay and an okay team good. 4 man tibbers stun wins a lot of team fights late game and something like janna can make your team really hard to lock down and kill. Your support win loss ratio is by far your worst so if you can position better and help your team better (also maybe look at common warding spots and think about the objective you are going for next and if the common spots you want vision for that objective have it yet or not and then warding BEFORE you go to the objective. Not warding in advance of starting to try something is a really common mistake I see) then you should see LP gains.

Lastly, think about your Garen builds, pure damage can be bad, but building decent damage w/ your tank items on Garen is often better than just going straight tank. W/ his silence and some damage to go w/ being a massive tank your ult can often drop a squishy like a fed adc before they get out of the silence. Dropping their biggest threat while still being tanky enough to have some hp left to stick around the fight makes team fights easy for your team. Other than that I'd suggest sticking to Darius and Garen (plus liss when you add her) unless you love the other two. I'm 4-1 w/ malph this season and love the champ, but part of why I win with him is because I usually pick him as a counter pick. If they don't have a lot of dashes his ult is great and q slow is pretty strong. Most importantly though is that if they have a jg or top who relies on attack speed plus the adc malph is probably 10 times better than if they just have casters and an adc. His AS slow as a counter pick is a HUGE difference in his strength in any game. Similarly I like Wu in any game w/ a yasuo, or something that is pretty wombo combo like wu, amumu, ziggs/kennend, and i dunno, like alister support or something. Other wise he's kinda a weak top right now, and while that might not matter much because a modicum of skill w/ even a bad champ can outweigh meta strength in bronze, if you're struggling to gain LP in low bronze reserving Malph and Wu for more situational picks, and realizing wu is probably better in the jungle than top right now may help you climb. Also as fun as Lee Sin may be, you probably don't want to play him except in normals. Honestly a good mechanics lee sin who uses the kit right could probably be pretty bad at everything else and still make gold, but because he is so strong w/ good mechanics he is balanced for that and is kinda weak if your mechanics aren't good. If you're low bronze then you just don't have the mechanics probably (a lot of gold players probably don't honestly) to make him worth playing given how they have to balance him. Lee's win rate is pretty bad in low elo, it's because of his balance. Play other stuff and get your mechanics on that better and when you hit high silver or low gold MAYBE consider picking up Lee. If you don't have the mechanics to get to that elo at least (and realistically probably high gold/plat mechanics are what you want) then lee just isn't worth playing when you could play something easier. If you like the mobility check out stuff like reksai, kat, lb, nid, ez, kass, and probably most importantly since you main top and I didn't see it listed, IRELIA. She is really strong top and has a huge power spike w/ trinity so you can start doing work early in the mid game which is huge in mid/low bronze bc if you can roam and snowball early a lot of teams start raging and fall apart if they get behind early.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I loved Lissandra from the first time I played her. It's just a matter of getting consistently good with her. My personal test to see if I'm ready for ranked is usually to see if I can keep up a high level of play for at least three straight matches with that champion. With Malz, for example, I held my own in 4 straight matches, with two being dominant performances and 1 showing that I can come from behind, as I think I started 0/3 to Vel and worked my way to 8/9/3 in a match when myself and our Jax top were the only real threats. So, in short, I need to play Liss some more before I'm comfortable making the leap to ranked.

But I'm that way with a lot of champions now. Been working a ton to improve my versatility and that has meant trying tons of champs. Gone through all the free ones the past couple weeks and bought a ton. And I can only really devote the proper attention to one champ at a time. Yesterday it was Malz. Today Liss. Tomorrow probably Leona, with some more Naut, even though I played nothing but him for days at first.

As a result, champions like Irelia have been largely forgotten about. Her, Jarvan, and Panth are ones I know I could probably excel with if I put my mind to it, Jarvan especially, but since top has been the least of my concerns they've fallen by the wayside. Shyvana's another possibility, and she can jungle too. Those are the only ones left that I really see myself doing well with. Unless I practice Shen or Hec a run or end up loving Kennen or Diana whenever I get the chance to play them.

Rek, Nid, and Ez were all busts for me. LB seems to have a somewhat high skill cap too, though I can actually not make a fool of myself playing her like I do with Zed. And Kat's yet another champ that's on my list to practice.

With regards to Garen, unless I really need the added tankiness, I tend to buy IE, BC, or both and find that, with the crits on his E, are enough. Especially when I get fed pretty often.

Oh, and support is definitely one of my top priorities now, since it's either I get top or jungle or am stuck supporting. Working on my mid too, though, so it's not "top and jungle are taken, so support it must be" every time. And knowing that I can do well with Graves in the event that I'm forced to ADC, which jas only happened 3 times in 218 matches kind you, is comforting as well. I can stop saying that if I ADC we will likely lose now. Heh.

AFK Push1 votes

Wukong is an amazing top, he can easily win the game for you from a good teamfight and some roams. His midgame is cray.

Kappeerino1 votes

16 games is nothing, people play that in a day. You would need hundreds of matches to have accurate results.

EkkoFroffles8 votes

At this rate, just to reach 100 matches versus Teemo, that would require 737.5 total ranked games. I think 16 games of dominance on my part, not including the times I've faced Teemo in normal matches, is enough for me to say that your average bronze Teemo doesn't pose much of a threat to me. Especially when it is the largest sample size I have, as I have a Word document with all 117 matches sorted by match-up. And when around 200 or so matches total looks to be about average for the ranked players I face, meaning you're not liable to find a sample size that big for one person facing a particular matchup, as it would mean they literally played that matchup every match, which I'm pretty sure is a statistical impossibility. I understand saying the sample size could be bigger, but saying it means nothing at all to go 12-4 in 16 games against your top counter, with complete dominance in nearly every one of those games during the laning phase... that is just silly.

Kappeerino1 votes

You can flip a coin 16 times and get heads 12 times and tails 4, doesen't mean it won't even out to what it's supposed to with large enough data samples.

EkkoFroffles6 votes

And I'm saying that this is the biggest sample size I can possibly point to using my own stats. I'd have a winning record if I combined my win rates against all my counters too, and that would be dozens of matches. Plus, like I said, I rarely see counters work in bronze in any situation. I can't count the number of times I've thought we had smooth sailing in one lane because there was no way A loses to B and ended up wrong. Conversely, I can't really think of any successful counters I've seen.

Ronnie Law1 votes

You are failing to understand the factors in the games you are playing. First, teemo just got a nifty new skin. This will attract A LOT of players that cannot utilize him mechanically. They are not playing him because they are good with him. They want to see their shiny new skin.

Second, even without a skin, teemo is a gimmick champ, and that draws people that are looking for a specific gimmick.

What you are not understanding is that in your sample size, you have probably run up against few, if any, skilled teemo players.

You are using this data to allow the BAD teemo players to represent the GOOD teemo players. Keep thinking that if you want, you are in for a rude awakening.

That being said, if you are specifically talking about playing against Bronze level players, and making a case for Darius being good at that level of play, uhm, DUH.

Just about any champ can spank bronzies if you are mechanically good at them. Darius has a low skill floor, that just means it is easier to figure him out and win at a bronze level.

What you need to be concerned about is his skill ceiling.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

Again, THIS IS WITH GAREN. I have one match with Darius in ranked from back before I was as comfortable with him as my other top laners and I lost.

And from all the discussions I've seen/had, a legitimately good Teemo player is beyond hard to come by because, like you said, he's a gimmick champ. So I'm not too worried about him, not in low ELOs.

Also, even against my other counters, including Darius, the guy you hate so much, I am at least 1 game away from 50% and can honestly say that in some of those losses I squashed my opponent like a bug and lost due to other unrelated factors.

AFK Push1 votes

this dude must be one of those bronze teemos, so I would just let it go OP

BTW you're awesome for maining Garen

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I just main him because I've played a crazy amount of games with him, to be honest. And his simplicity means I don't need to think as much. I'd prefer being a Darius or Wukong main, since both can carry hard, but I've just reached a point where I'll pick Garen into any matchup without worrying, so if I get first pick and want top I feel safer choosing him than anyone else. Think he was the first champion I mained and got good with too. For a hot second I was a "Teemo main," believe it or not, but that was forever ago and barely lasted.

º Lamb calls º5 votes

{quoted}

16 games is nothing, people play that in a day. You would need hundreds of matches to have accurate results.

It doesn't matter how many games it is, I have gone against more than enough teemos over the course of my 1,000+ Garen games, and won against most of them. Anyone picking a "counter", because it's a "counter" is going to be annoying early at best simply because of range vs melee, but after a point if they don't know what they are doing, they'll just lose.

Space Bum1 votes

I always instalock kennen vs garen but he is one of my most played Champs.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

See Kennen is a pest. I think I'm something like 2-1 against him, but he was irritating in all those matches. I just don't see him often and so it's harder to deal with due to lack of experience.

Space Bum1 votes

Garen can't fight kennen (period) it's not even a question of skill any time you go in for kennen he will either stun you or escape with E. My version of kennen is especially nope vs melee since I play him on hit attack speed but the truth is there is no time when any half competent kennen can be killed by a garen. The most you can get off would be a q that would most likely trigger a stun from hitting me while I'm using E if you were already not stunned. I've played the matchup tons of times. The only good response I have seen from a garen was him giving up the lane to roam.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

Luckily I don't see many Kennens, the ones I see aren't the best, and I know how to make myself useful with roams even when lane is lost.

Ronnie Law1 votes

Your entire post is asinine.

Counterpicks are 2 stage. Lane and Team fight. The metrics supporting counterpicks are not lying.

First, your argument lends alot of support to the idea that Darius just needs to be nerfed into the ground.

Second, you are assuming that skill level does not matter.

Mechanically you are better, because you know the champion you are playing.

However, it is extremely evident that you don't understand how to play the game. A LOT of top lanes make the same mistake. It does not matter if you "win" or "lose" lane, it matters if you win or lose the game.

I had a game recently where I was doing wretched with teemo. Intentional feeding type KDA. 17+ deaths.

We won, and we won because I baited the enemy team at every turn.

Defend turret or chase teemo? Lets chase teemo.

Seriously, any time I showed up, they would drop what they were doing, let my team run rampant across the map, and focus me until I was dead. Which often took a LONG time, merry jaunts through both jungles and back and forth through river so they could "outflank" me.

Yeah, I died. I lost lane hard. I fed and had only 3 kills at the end of the game.

And I won.

The point here is that while individual skill level is important, it isn't nearly everything. I can run Gangplank Vs. Pantheon too, that doesn't mean that because I will generally win against my counterpick that it is a bad pick.

What you are going to learn is that eventually your Darius is gonna get handled, and you are gonna have to start all over with a new champ. And since you don't understand fundamental game concepts, and only have mechanical skill in a specific champ, you are back to Wood 5 level play.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I said I'm 12-4 against Teemo and have a 50+% win rate against all of my counters. If I wasn't also winning a lot against supposed counters I wouldn't have made this post. And this is all with Garen, not Darius. Did you even read my post?

Plus, I have experience with plenty of champs. I just have the most success with Garen because, you know, he's my main. That's kind of how it works. But I'm just as comfortable with Wukong, for example.

aaronconlin1 votes

Every time I see a team with 3 AP champions I pick Galio, whether I'm top, mid or support. So far there have been 4 dodges because of this.

Angelofchaos16x1 votes

Reminds me of the time I picked Swain with a Syndra locked in ( So they knew that I was Top) and the other guy instalocked Nasus. First thing of the match, he said "Hey Swain, I am your counterpick". It was a fun lane, for me and it was quite easy.

jama6551 votes

I use aatrox as my garen "counter" he has good sustain and can poke garen out of his passive constantly with no real cost, its all good till late game when garen gets those real tnk items then it all just depends but by then you should have thoroughly wiped his ass ammmirightttt jk

arcinex1 votes

Just ban out your team and carry. By that I mean ban out those low elo bronze 5 champion picks. Xin zhao, pantheon, teemo, heimer, veigar, basically any champion you don't want on your team.

Diananmen Square1 votes

You make me think of those people who pick Ashe agaisnt my Kalista but feed.

blubabby1 votes

Can vouch. Although it's been forever since I've played ranked (S1), whenever I pick Aatrox I get a Riven counter pick who doesn't know how to deal with Aatrox and I end up completely dominating the game and getting inhibitor by 20.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Garen does NOT counter Riven..Riven has everything in her kit to outplay him.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

Suffice it to say, you're most certainly in the minority thinking that.

http://www.championselect.net/champions/riven https://www.championcounter.com/riven http://www.lolcounterpicks.com/champions/61/betashow http://www.picklol.net/riven http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1430238&page=1 http://www.eclypsia.com/en/lol/guide/champion/96/counter http://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/25o6jk/counters_to_riven_top/

That's just from the first page of results when you Google "riven counters." As is said in many of them, Garen's Q is a "combo breaker" for Riven. If she plays safe and farms, she'll eventually outscale Garen, but if Garen can stop her comboing with his Qs and bully her enough early on, then Riven's in a bad place.

Literally all I had to do my last match against her was Q her whenever I saw her start up her combo, E her, then step away and go back to farming. Rinse, repeat until I had an opening for a kill. But I stupidly let her roam without tagging along and my teammates fed her, even with fair warning. Otherwise, she would've been useless to her team.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Dude, no offense to you but you are Bronze V. This doesn't make your arguments invalid per se but your personal anecdotes are not really viable to build a point for Champ A countering Champ B. These "counterpick websites" are also retarded in my opinion, people like you and me can comment there. I will tell you that i have played this matchup from both sides quite often, and while Garen has the advantage in early trades there is nothing he can do to stop her from farming and he defintiely cannot kill her if the Riven just focusses on csing, Now I know from my days in Bronze back in Season 3 that no one ever thinks about csing while laning but only about getting kills, so thats why the Riven in your matches might try to engage onto you and then yeah..get silenced and lose the trade. But if the Riven just plays carefully and gets cs there is nothing Garen can do about it, he has no kill pressure or the potential to bully her like for example a Renekton has.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

Diamond 2 ( http://www.lolking.net/guides/294971 ). Diamond 2 ( http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/khazems-top-lane-riven-361176 ). Platinum ( http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/s5-extensive-riven-guide-a-broken-blade-is-more-than-enough-404727 ). Are there worse counters? Yes. Is there a strategy to coming out on top? Yes, as there is with any "counter." Doesn't mean it's not still a tough matchup if the players are of equal skill level. The last guide says as much. It's not the worst matchup you can have, but it is one to be careful about still.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

None of these links work (for me). Garen is not a counter to Riven, if the Garen fucks up he will get punished hard. Renekton is a counter too Riven because he can bully her around but even that matchup can be won by Riven. Garen cannot do anything to Riven unless she wastes her skills or tries to fight him. If he wants to engage on her she can easily disengage without taking any significant damage.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

It's because the forum was making it so the parentheses were becoming part of the link. I have now fixed that.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Quoted directly from the last link where he talks about the Garen matchup: Alright guys... I guess I'll actually have to talk about this guy. People think he's hard... He's not.. Just be scared if he has ignite.. E his q's early game, then crush him lv 4/5 with your q scaling. After that the lane is yours.

And thats all there is to playing vs Garen as Riven.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I'm just saying it's not a walk in the park and that if Riven isn't on point it can go badly for her. And in my ELO, that is liable to happen. Though I personally am not the best in that matchup for some reason.

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