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MMR: Who's for it being visible?

EkkoFroffles··104 votes·4,895 views

Got into a debate of sorts about this with a user in another thread. Given that your MMR affects your entire ranked experience, from who you're matched with, to your LP losses and gains, to how many divisions a successful promo series lets you jump, etc., I honestly don't understand why Riot keeps it a secret. Sure, you can guesstimate it using sites like OP.GG and just going based off your LP gains/losses, but if we were allowed to see behind the curtain at the actual numbers the transparency would make it so I'd always know exactly where I stood in relation to the rest of my division. As a result, there would be far less confusion and frustration since you'd know when your MMR's higher or lower than your division and thus be able to foresee crap like the dreaded 99 LP, small gains/huge losses, and skipping divisions. That and you'd have a hard number to look at to see how good the game thinks you are, making tracking your improvement simple as can be. It's been said that Riot will never implement this, or re-implement, since I recall hearing that it was visible at one point in the past (my friend, who played it a while back, says he remembers this), but the same could be said for much of the stuff we discuss here, such as the many proposed solutions for champ select trolls or leavers/AFKs in match. Just because Riot chooses to ignore most of these suggestions doesn't mean it's not even worth proposing and discussing.

So, how many of you would be for this?

82 Comments

Sky Shadow7 votes

Doesn't having it invisible essentially go against everything Riot has said about "Gameplay Clarity"?

I know you can use websites that try to estimate it (Just what I want to use, an outside source for a game I'm playing), but I can't read a map with the roads missing. Even if I stop at a nearby gas station and have them somewhat draw it in, I'de like the reliability of it being there even if I have to search through menus to see it.

So my vote is yes.

JRobin317 votes

The way I see it is this: I am playing a ranked competitive game. Therefore, I want to know where I rank with respect to other players. If you had a choice: in one hand is the blue pill - if you take this pill, you can go back to playing League and never know where the system actually ranks you; in the other hand is a red pill - if you take this pill, prepare to face the harsh reality of where you actually measure up. If you had a choice, which pill would you choose?

Sinlaire2 votes

both. i drank too much last night and i live life on the edge.

Occams Raiser6 votes

I think like every other sport there has ever been, It should be visible as well as how you amass points. I am waiting on reason against the transparency of this system. I saw a thread about two guys that started 2 fresh accounts and played their prelims together for all 10 games. When it was over they were sorted into two different divisions. We all wanted to know why. I think it is because there is a flaw in the system when it comes to calculating KDA, cs per minute, and win\loss rates as it pertains to lane assignments. I think if we knew that calculation hurt particular roles we would see a shift towards the highest rewarded role. Who would play support if you found out you advance slower because of it? What if it was vise versa? Everyone would want to play support to rise faster.

What do you think?

DrCyanide2 votes

I think that you're defiantly on the right track.

I also think there's nothing to be gained by having the MMR being visible. What use is it to you? A way for you to see if you're favored to win that game? A way for you to compare yourself to your teammates?

Knowing the general community, these MMR numbers would be thrown around to claim one Gold 4 is better than another Gold 4 or to complain about matchmaking more. There's no productive reason to share them.

Sammystorm6 votes

I hated the change of them making mmr visible some where around season 3. They did it because of "ranked anxiety" and your "mmr not really showing anything." I think both excuses are lame and it is better to have it visible.

The GG Janitor5 votes

The reason why mmr is not visible is cuz if u can see it, there would be no meaning the current rank system, since mmr is our real rank and no on will care about the current system anymore. I have personally exerperienced mmr being visible, and I honestly believe our current rank system is better. Right now ur entire rank is not just a number but rather in division which gives more sense of accomplishment and prevents ladder anxiety which is a real issue. How would u feel if u just got promoted to let's say gold, then lose one game and ur back in silver?

disregardable8 votes

How would u feel if u just got promoted to let's say gold, then lose one game and ur back in silver?

Happens all the time. Why? Because they got promoted when their MMR wasn't enough. This system doesn't remove ranked anxiety, it just shifts it to other people.

There's a rather sizable amount of people that are constantly stuck between Bronze 5 and Bronze 4. We get promoted and demoted over and over. It's extremely frustrating and completely unnecessary, because our MMR never changes, only our rank does. I imagine it happens in other elos too, but it's all I ever see here.

EkkoFroffles3 votes

Precisely. I've improved my win rate, gotten up to B4 quite a few times, but once I get there it's just a precipitous fall back down to B5 because my MMR, for some reason, doesn't seem to move any throughout all of this, even when I win 7 straight at one point in B4 (57 LP total; -27 LP for first loss). At least if I knew for a fact that my MMR was still crappy, I would just say "okay, no matter... just have to do even better." But with there still being uncertainty due to not being 100% sure what your MMR is, I just find myself constantly getting my hopes up. "This'll be the win that bumps my MMR up, right!?"

MEMEME6701 votes

Are you sure you know how mmr works? The only way to 'bump it up' is to consistently have over a 50% winrate...

EkkoFroffles2 votes

Following a slightly rocky start, just about every time I hop onto OP.GG and look at my last 20 ranked games it's over 50% win rate for those. I had over a hundred games played before things finally started to click, though, so I had to slowly drag my overall win rate for now over 200 games from, if I remember correctly, 45% to 49%. It's dropped back down to 48% due to a mix of bad luck and less than ideal play from myself in some matches here and there, but I think going up 4% in something like a couple weeks when you have that many matches, making bumping it up a much harder proposition, proves that I have been playing a lot better lately. But, as I said, since my win rate has improved and been pretty consistently over 50% (for my last 20 at any given point), and on many occasions higher than 60%, my MMR's been lower than ever before and my LP swings bigger than ever before. Explain that.

Right now I'm at 45% for my last 20, but that's the lowest I've seen it in ages. And that's with matches where I'm literally the only one winning lane, even when I try to roam to help out. Stuff like that has me on a bit of a tilt, robbing me of the confidence and swagger I had for a while there. And still, I'm only 2 wins away from 50% during my worst 20 game stretch in I don't know how long.

MEMEME6702 votes

If your winrate overall is still below 50%, how can you reasonably expect to be above where you started (which would be, where you were placed)?

EkkoFroffles2 votes

I've seen B3s and higher with win rates equal to mine. My friend got to B3 with a win rate maybe 1 or 2% higher than me by going on a hot streak. He'd win a couple and be just short of promos. I win a couple and I'm lucky to be one quarter of the way there. We both are about equal win rate wise now and still his MMR is 100+ above mine, even though we're both B5, and his LP gains and losses are nowhere near as drastic either.

I'm sorry, but if I have a crap start this season, climb my way up 4% (a lot when you have so many matches played), a win or two from 50%, and nearly two divisions with a win rate of over 60% during that time, and I'm getting 9 LP for a 6 win streak, and -27 LP for my first loss after that, that's nonsense, my overall win rate be damned. When that friend of mine can get to promos with a couple wins at the same time, with maybe a 1% higher overall win rate, if that, that's bull.

MEMEME6702 votes

Your early games have heavy weighting on them. If you do worse in those, these situations will happen.

Having a crap start is a big deal, don't play it off like it's luck. By early games, im talking about first 100 or something, it's a big number.

Knucklefist1 votes

{quoted}

If your winrate overall is still below 50%, how can you reasonably expect to be above where you started (which would be, where you were placed)?

still no excuse for a person with a win rate that's even worse than mine to be 2 whole divisions higher. I have double his amount of games and total wins and my win % is higher than his. 80 more wins than him, only 63 more losses than him and hes 2 divisions higher than me.

MEMEME6702 votes

Your early games have heavy weighting on them. If you do worse in those, these situations will happen.

Father Cthulhu2 votes

I've been stuck in Bronze 1 for 3 weeks. Can hardly progress, since I gain 15-20 LP per win, yet loose 20-30 LP per loss.

Teraxe4 votes

OK,

Make sure you are paying attention. The entire point of the League system . You heard that the entire point of the league system is to hide your MMR. It used to be the only way you were ranked, but there was too much rage and discrimination and lack of feeling of advancement. So, now we have League System, and our true ranking is kept hidden from us.

M Schumacher3 votes

its already easy to figure out your mmr lol

Leti the Yeti25 votes

tell me more about the accuracy of those sites and calculators you use and completely disregarding their disclaimers...

EkkoFroffles5 votes

Yes, you can use sites such as op.gg to see their estimate, but I've found that on op.gg I can simply reload the page and it'll give me different results when I click "MMR." Either the MMR changes, or the message it gives you changes. For example, it'll switch from "welcome to ELO hell" to saying my MMR is normal for my division. And my friend's went from saying he'd jump two divisions with a successful promo series to saying his MMR was too low and he'd "continue to tank" if he didn't improve. I'm just not satisfied with what are still estimates. I'm all about hard numbers, keeping a close eye on my ward score on that site that tracks how you ward in relation to others in each role, my win rate and other stats with each champion, etc. But with my MMR I just have to go based off what a site estimates using their own formulas, and that's not hard enough data for me.

GundayMonday4 votes

Yeah, same. opgg is +/- ~300 mmr for me at any given time.

Dr Easter1 votes

I use http://quickfind.kassad.in/ it gives MMR for any mode. Seems the most accurate from what I heard from some people that once talked to a rioter about that site

Karlyr2 votes

Riot "changed" the system to make sure that a number doesn't represent your skill because for people it's being too "binary". Oh you're better than me.

The league system is there to make sure people focus on the present tense. With these number it's easy to forget that you are really climbing. People tends to like seeing big numbers. (Just check end-game stats/damage of any JRPG)

So making you feel like each win is 20-25 LP instead of 8-12 MMR feels a lot more rewarding. Plus the fact that if you are ahead of your MMR compared to your LP you seem to keep climbing even if you go 1W-1L. It feels even more rewarding making you try harder.

It's a better way to reinforce positive attitude compared to the old elo showing.

TL;DR : Go on OP.GG ffs.

EkkoFroffles2 votes

See, as I've said, my attitude is rather negative because it seems no matter how much I win, no matter how high I climb, my MMR remains more or less stagnant based on LP losses and gains. So even if it was just 8-12 MMR for a win, at least I'd get to see in 100% black and white terms how I'm progressing towards the MMR I want/need.

Karlyr2 votes

I understand that. But to me it's better the way it is currently. It helps a lot of people that are "in the right path".

And, as I said, just go on OP.GG If you want to see a real "100% black and white" progression. There is an option for MMR, and you also have a top % of players.

It also goes along the lines of "People doesn't know what they really want". Back in S2 (and prior), people were complainning about the lack of satisfaction for climbing. Wint the LP system, you have that feeling a lot more than with a single number.

EkkoFroffles2 votes

Op.gg's MMR results can't even be consistent from one second to the next for me. And I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that 5+ win streaks have what appears to be the smallest possible effect on my MMR. Before I started playing better, my MMR seemed too move up and down normally. Now it basically stays at the "welcome to ELO hell" spot, and I mean the exact same number +/- 5, no matter how much I win. And what that MMR means changes by the second. One second I'm in good standing, the next ELO hell, etc.

I mean, my friend has about the same overall win rate that I do and his MMR is significantly higher than mine. Someone here said it's a all about your overall win rate, but even that doesn't seem true if we're so far apart.

In short, op.gg is still just guessing and so I don't put much stock in their results.

EkkoFroffles2 votes

I keep seeing "ladder anxiety blahblahblah." I'd have LESS anxiety if I knew my exact MMR at all times, so I'm really not understanding this.

somexotherxguy2 votes

I don't really understand why having the exact number would make you feel better. All you should need to know is whether your MMR is above or below your current division, which is easy to figure out from LP gains and losses.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

Because when I keep seeing similar gains/losses even when I win more, it gets me wondering: am I actually moving forward at all!? Or am I just doing the old one step forward, one step back dance? A tiny difference in losses/gains doesn't necessarily mean you're improving, as you just might be closer to the rank it thinks you're not qualified for than when it gave you a tinier LP loss (think the 99 LP phenomenon). But with the actual number, I can stop stressing over each gain/loss because I know that's not what really matters, what decides who I get matched with.

somexotherxguy2 votes

Well the problem is your MMR only starts to really go up if you win more than lose, which you have not done. Having a losing record in your division will cause your MMR to drop. So even when you go on a winning streak if your overall record in your division is still below 50% your MMR is not gonna go up past your division's MMR. Once you get over a 50% win rate your MMR will surpass your current rank and LP gains will increase.

EkkoFroffles2 votes

I got all the way up to one win from 50% not too long ago winning 60+% of my games during that span and my LP fluctuations seemed even worse then then before when I was doing much worse, by my own admission. This is my first actual season, since I only played a tiny bit in pre-season prior, and I'm still trying to overcome my crappy start, which takes quite a while. It took dozens of games just to get myself back near 50%, and I generally see that I've won at least 50% of my last 20 ranked at any given time.

But if I have to not just perform better, but also well enough to undo damage done by a weak start to the season, I think that's a bunch of bull and just want to say screw that.

somexotherxguy1 votes

{quoted}

you gotta do more than undo damage done by a weak start. You gotta undo damage caused by every game you ever lost. We NEVER get a clean reset. Its always a half reset, or a "soft reset". Meaning if you were bronze the season before or silver there is literally no way to place higher because the system is already biased towards you based off of how you did last season. Screw the fact that they change the game every 2 weeks. Like the 5 times jungles been changed. Or all the characters that get nerfed in to being obsolete. All these things affect peoples wins and losses over the years and they don't let you escape them. That means every game someone ever afked in or trolled you in is still being held against you in some minor way. They don't make the worst team in the NFL banned from the playoffs the following season. Nor the worst high school team either. The bar for getting out of bronze is SO high. In LCS they win games with fewer kills as a team than I have had by myself in some games I lost. So yeah I totally sympathize with what you are saying.

It is not near as bad as he is making it out to be, you are actually pretty close to 50% which means you are close to making your MMR climb as well. Sure the game does soft resets but that doesn't you mean cant place higher that the previous season. I advise you to just keep playing, since this is your first season bronze is a pretty normal starting point. Just focus on improving your play and bringing in wins it will do you way more good than worrying about a number that you can't even see.

Knucklefist1 votes

{quoted}

It is not near as bad as he is making it out to be, you are actually pretty close to 50% which means you are close to making your MMR climb as well. Sure the game does soft resets but that doesn't you mean cant place higher that the previous season. I advise you to just keep playing, since this is your first season bronze is a pretty normal starting point. Just focus on improving your play and bringing in wins it will do you way more good than worrying about a number that you can't even see.

actually this is my fifth season and no matter how many times I climb in bronze, even climbed out once or twice, they stick me back down when the next season starts and I'm forced to play another thousand games trying to climb out only to be kicked back down to bronze when it restarts again. If I had back even half the games I lost from people who didn't connect, dced all game, afked, or just flat out trolled my win percentage would be much higher. I was 60-and 40 in my first 100 games. Know where that got me? bronze 3. guess where I was the end of last season right before this season began? bronze 3. It doesn't matter what my win rate is because the points I get for losing always outweigh what I get for winning. So if I lose a match I have to win 2 matches to even get those points back. I go on streaks all the time just to get trolled or afks in my promos. They seriously need a transparent system for ranking and mmr. Its not too much to ask. They don't want us to know because they don't want us to know how flawed it really is. Im not one of those people that's delusional that thinks I should be gold or plat. But after playing since the FIRST season and having a pretty good idea of how to play all the champs and at least what they can do....I shouldn't be getting paired with some of the people I get paired with and I cant seem to escape them

somexotherxguy1 votes

Well I wasn't directing that last comment to you, but I can't really give you a reason for what your issue is cause the account you are on is not your main

Knucklefist1 votes

{quoted}

Well I wasn't directing that last comment to you, but I can't really give you a reason for what your issue is cause the account you are on is not your main

Lol the problem is I get paired with people that clearly don't give a fuck that Ranked is supposed to be competitive. The problem is that no matter how fed you are, if the other team makes a conscientious effort to shut you down, and your team is failing, you lose. I would say 75% of the people I play with never even upgrade their trinket. Some only use said trinket 3-4 times a game. People assume because I'm bronze like them I don't know shit about the game, even though I've been playing it since it came out. So they don't take ANY advice when they are running around the map getting wrekt, building wrong items, being where they shouldn't be, etc etc. Don't get me wrong I have my derpy moments, but I look at some peoples histories I get paired with....and derp is a lifestyle choice for them, not just something that happens occasionally. I average 5 deaths a game for probably the last 2000 games I've played. Sometimes more sometimes not at all. I generally main support. My KDA with morg in like 50 games is 4 3 13. I have positive KDA on several characters I play. Not enough to compensate for the feeder or afk I get 1 out of 4 games. I understand it wasn't directed at me personally I was just saying. I have less than stellar performances. But I dont make myself a dead weight for the team and almost impossible to carry. Peoples ranks need to be based off more than wins and losses in a 5 man game. Just because your team is going to the superbowl doesn't mean you had the best quarterback in the league. Get my drift?

somexotherxguy1 votes

I can understand the frustration of getting bad teammates or afks, but after so many games it should even out where you win because of afks. I never had the issue of getting stuck, I used teamfight champs to force fights and snowball my team to get to high silver. After that I trusted teammates enough to play my main role which is support.

Knucklefist1 votes

{quoted}

I can understand the frustration of getting bad teammates or afks, but after so many games it should even out where you win because of afks. I never had the issue of getting stuck, I used teamfight champs to force fights and snowball my team to get to high silver. After that I trusted teammates enough to play my main role which is support.

Sure I win a few games because of afks and trolls on the other team. My point is that I am not the feeder or afk. I feel just as bad for the other team when it happens to them and I always report. I want to have a good match. A fair match. Everytime I get to my promos shit goes awry. Its frustrating and it starts to take its toll on you after a while. I dont wanna have to duo my way out of bronze. I shouldn't have to. If they factored in more than your wins and losses and used some other per game stats in addition I feel like I would get the separation from some of these people I am looking for. Maybe they should make a Copper. Iron. NIckel.....lol I dunno.

somexotherxguy2 votes

They changed the formula they used to calculate LP and MMR gains and losses to include other things besides just a win. However that was only put in this season and still needs to be tweeked a bit im guessing. So Riot is trying to accommodate for other factors besides just the win. Since i can't see your stats or anything the only advice i can give is to keep trying. I think anyone who doesn't deserve to be in bronze can get out although it might take awhile.

Knucklefist1 votes

{quoted}

They changed the formula they used to calculate LP and MMR gains and losses to include other things besides just a win. However that was only put in this season and still needs to be tweeked a bit im guessing. So Riot is trying to accommodate for other factors besides just the win. Since i can't see your stats or anything the only advice i can give is to keep trying. I think anyone who doesn't deserve to be in bronze can get out although it might take awhile.

If they changed it, its a welcome addition. I've made it out of bronze before, but its hard to stay there when they keep pairing you with bronze players even after you make it out. Same mistakes, better competition. Oh well. Cant wait for teambuilder ranked TBH.

Cansema2 votes

they removed/hid it because they said it causing players to be negative to each other... now we have something else

Sukishoo1 votes

Yeah now we just have people going "look at me I'm Diamond you should bow down before me!"

TenSlashTen2 votes

because riot supports this shit new system instead of going back to it being mmr based where the elo boosted accounts couldn't ruin your games for that long because they drop like 50-100 mmr a game forbeing boosted so hard and then going on a losing streak.

Rrett2 votes

Im in favor of just bringing the ELo system back.

Ouroborous HD1 votes

umm no. we already have discrimination without people being able to see the exact mmr you have. letting people see that will just make the bs get worse.

xX420n0sc0pzXx7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ouroborous HD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EshKfbmI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-04-14T02:12:57.474+0000)

umm no. we already have discrimination without people being able to see the exact mmr you have. letting people see that will just make the bs get worse.

then what's wrong with only being able to see your own MMR(also discrimination is a good thing IMO).

EkkoFroffles4 votes

That's your reason? At least then you'll have a pretty factual basis for any "discrimination." Plus, there are ways it could actually be helpful to people who do have low MMR. Say you check the MMRs of everyone as the match is loading and find that your top laner has a noticeably lower MMR than the rest of you. You know then to lower your expectations and to give him some extra help if he's struggling. I already do this same sort of thing pre-match by seeing how my teammates and opponents are with their chosen champion, looking for signs of strength or weakness. I tend to give the jungler the freedom to treat top lane as my personal island in every match, since I so rarely lose lane, and know how to play safe when I am to keep it from snowballing. Except if I see our ADC is thoroughly outmatched, I'll make absolutely clear that I only want him to show his face in my lane if I demand it.

Nameless Voice3 votes

Sadly, this is not how the average League player thinks.

Most people see someone with a worse MMR and think they need to insult and/or flame that person, rather than trying to help them to get better.

Also, bear in mind that you'll end up with people being really hostile to someone because they are 5 MMR lower, even though they might well have lost 15 MMR because of a leaver in their previous game, etc.

vipervenom2251 votes

since most league players are bronze and silver who complain tht its their teams fault and not theirs they would just get mad at rito because their mmr would be below their expectations so the only thing that would come from this is negativity

EkkoFroffles1 votes

All this and we can't even get a comment from a Rioter saying "sorry, but nah"?

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