PSA for Junglers

EkkoFroffles··26 votes·2,222 views

If you buy Devourer, don't play the "you're all dead to me until this thing's sated" game, having zero presence for your lanes until it's so deep into the match that they might all have lost thanks to the other jungler actually showing up for them. It's gotten to the point that I'm about to reject any Devourer-using jungler in Team Builder, because I don't even think I've had a single one of them get their Sated Devourer prior to the match being over.

It's probably due in large part to people's insistence upon playing whatever's "OP" without first understanding why it is and learning how to make proper use of it themselves. I remember one Master Yi I had on my team had only played him once prior to that, and it really showed.

On a related note, a lane that's down 1 kill isn't "lost" and therefore ungankable from that point on. I almost never blame the jungler, because I've jungled in the past and know how ridiculous people can be when it comes to the jungler, but I've had so many junglers refuse to show their face outside the jungle more than once or twice before things get so out of control there's no more stopping it that I couldn't help saying something to my junglers.

Like last match, our Nunu alternated between farming his own jungle, trying to counter-jungle and dying for it (he didn't let this dissuade him from doing it again), and making repeated failed ganks on the Riven up top. Meanwhile, for minutes Ahri was cowered under turret against Heimerdinger, who only had one kill on her at this point. She could do nothing but farm as best she could under turret. I know he's Heimerdinger, and he had a kill on her, but it only got out of control when he got some more kills, then proceeded to roam along with their Evelynn, who set up camp bot lane.

When he finally did show up for a "gank" mid, he just walked up the lane, did nothing, then went back to farming. When he came bot, he walked up from in front of them, threw a snowball at Sivir, who spell shielded it, then went back to farming. And later on in chat he said we were "greedy" because we wanted him to gank a "fed Ez." He finished 7/4/4, compared to the 16/4/13 Sivir. If mid lane was "lost," as Irelia was claiming, the ganks on Riven weren't working, and Evelynn was showing up every minute or so bot lane (and taking dragon), then that means your priority should be snowballing the only one who's a threat to snowball and save them from being shut out of the match by constant ganks from Heimer and Eve.

**TL;DR: **Whichever jungler you play, whichever jungle item you buy, please show up for a token gank now and then at least. And if a teammate dies once in lane, don't write that lane off as "lost," because all it takes is one decent gank to turn that lane right back in their favor. And all it takes sometimes is you neglecting them entirely for that lane to become completely lost even if they play safe, since the enemy will see that you're not even trying to help and it'll become open season on them.

52 Comments

Jungle Lux God8 votes

As a jungle main I fully agree with this.

You can't afford to powerfarm the jungle to stack your Sated Devourer when your lanes need help. Even when I'm running Devourer when it isn't sated, I always show my face to the lanes to help them when they need help, unless it physically isn't possible to help them, like if all the lanes are pushed (where you can't gank) or if I'm using a farm-heavy jungler that can't gank well.

On the other hand, if you play with a Devourer-using jungler that doesn't get their Devourer sated by the time the match is over, you probably already lost the lanes so hard that the jungler can't even help. From my experience, it's easy to get a Sated Devourer before 20 minutes, especially if you get Scuttlers and Dragons, even when you impact the lanes between farming jungle camps. If you don't get Sated Devourer by then you either have a bad jungle player that doesn't know how to farm the jungle or the lanes lost so hard that the jungler physically could not help and the enemy team is able to invade the jungle to prevent the jungler from stacking his Devourer.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

You underestimate their ability to ignore that entire area of the map (dragon/scuttle/bot lane) and their ability to feed. Even when I win a match with a Devourer-using jungler, it's usually thanks to us doing well enough as a team to put up with a jungler who almost never shows up to help.

But, just in general, I barely see any impactful junglers anymore, whether it be on my team or the enemy team. And when I do, they're only making an impact in lanes because the other jungler isn't. A jungler who knows when and how to gank effectively can arguably change the tide of a match more than anything else, and the jungle changes seem to have resulted in junglers becoming a crapshoot overall. At least in my personal experience.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

{quoted}

You underestimate their ability to ignore that entire area of the map (dragon/scuttle/bot lane) and their ability to feed. Even when I win a match with a Devourer-using jungler, it's usually thanks to us doing well enough as a team to put up with a jungler who almost never shows up to help.

.

Devourer is a win harder item. When your jungler buy it he basically says "I'm a carry like you and I will farm to death to rush my mid/late game where I can be significant. Play SAFE, don't push lanes, freeze when in advantage. I'm not suitable to ganks since im a LATEgame carry."

If your sated jungler is doing it's job right, he gets all scutlers, giving vision to the top and bot lane, helping them playing safe and enabling a route for the mid laner gank if he wants. When you get ganked in lane you A) didn't warded, B) Is being dived and lost the lane (by playing wrong our being counter picked). Sure a gank can help. But if you really need ganks and lack map awareness, try being a top lane main. You'll get used to being alone and it will up your game.

When I play YI with sated I run TP so I have map presence and can counter gank if a laner gets out position.(by the way, you top laner can use his TP to gank too... your mid laner can push and roam too... it isn't obligatory to a jungle to gank).

Phife1 votes

Most champs who buy devourer can gank, people just dont want to because they think jungle stacks > dragon > ganks

The Yetii Rider4 votes

{quoted}

You underestimate their ability to ignore that entire area of the map (dragon/scuttle/bot lane) and their ability to feed. Even when I win a match with a Devourer-using jungler, it's usually thanks to us doing well enough as a team to put up with a jungler who almost never shows up to help.

But, just in general, I barely see any impactful junglers anymore, whether it be on my team or the enemy team. And when I do, they're only making an impact in lanes because the other jungler isn't. A jungler who knows when and how to gank effectively can arguably change the tide of a match more than anything else, and the jungle changes seem to have resulted in junglers becoming a crapshoot overall. At least in my personal experience.

It's not up to you to dictate how a jungler plays. If you want hanks, queue with friends or play jungle yourself.

Ganking is a high risk, high reward play style that involves a jungler giving up guaranteed gold and XP in the jungle in exchange for the possibility that his attack in lane will give some benefit.

Farming junglers want to carry on their own. Do they get countered by early game presence? Yes, why do you think Devourer was basically unpicked until the rework? That doesn't mean that junglers have to gank, nor does it mean ganking is the strongest option.

Cry more and duo with a jungle you trust.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I'm not trying to dictate how the jungler plays. I'm only asking that they not disregard us laners almost entirely. Especially when the opposing jungler is a gank bot, essentially. If they get objectives or counter jungle or do something to take advantage of knowing where the other jungler is, that's fine. But when a jungler acts like they're Nasus, not to be bothered with the team at all until they're farmed up, that's almost never gonna end well and I think it's understandable that someone would get frustrated.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not trying to dictate how the jungler plays. I'm only asking that they not disregard us laners almost entirely. Especially when the opposing jungler is a gank bot, essentially. If they get objectives or counter jungle or do something to take advantage of knowing where the other jungler is, that's fine. But when a jungler acts like they're Nasus, not to be bothered with the team at all until they're farmed up, that's almost never gonna end well and I think it's understandable that someone would get frustrated.

It's not the players' fault. They want to play Yi, Udyr, Shyvana, or Aatrox, but Riot has intentionally gimped those champions' kits to not function well in any lane. (I play Master Yi in lane and usually even though I farm pretty well I have to back constantly because I swallow mana and there's no itemization to stop that).

Sacrifice early ganking pressure and you get an insane carry that's much more relevant than a marksman. Why would the jungler care if his marksman is unfed and useless when he's ten times better?

Phife1 votes

because a marksman with a gold advantage over the enemy team will do the most damage on your team given that he has the highest gold. (cs'd well)

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

because a marksman with a gold advantage over the enemy team will do the most damage on your team given that he has the highest gold. (cs'd well)

Well, that's certainly what people would have said up until last patch, but is it still true over a Sated Aatrox?

Anyway, I think it's not just about lane presence, it IS possible for laners to play safe (although some don't know how). But the item basically has a sign on it saying "if you don't contest dragon, this item will suck for way too long" and some people still don't read the sign and buy the item anyway.

You can't stack at a reasonable pace with 0 dragons. The item is designed to reward you for taking dragon and punish you for giving them all away. And you need good support from your lanes to control dragon (against competent opposition).

Phife1 votes

Showing lane presence when needed at the appropriate time is always good, even if you don't get exp / high amounts of gold for it, you're pressuring the enemy laner out of Cs'ing / playing aggressive towards your ally.

After a full clear of a side of your jungle (red / blue side) go top / bottom and 'check it out', get scuttle after you gank / fail gank. Pressure mid, go B then do drag... its so simple to do this, but its even easier to think you can get "guaranteed exp" in the jungle by not doing anything for 25min.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

A jungler that knows when and how to gank CAN change the tides of a match more than anything else. That includes knowing when not to gank and farm his camps or take objectives like the Scuttle Crab, maybe Dragon if your champ can solo it easily like Warwick of Fiddlesticks.

You definitely don't seem to be playing with good junglers if the junglers you play with don't impact the map and don't sate their Devourer before the game ends. Play with a good jungler and you will play with a jungler that both impacts the map and Sates their devourer in under 20 minutes.

Phife1 votes

A little side note, you probably shouldn't be jungling if you're champion is "farm heavy".

Jungle Lux God1 votes

What's wrong with playing a "farm heavy" jungler?

Quite a few really strong junglers are extremely farming-oriented, like Shyvanna and Master Yi. Champions like them don't really gank too well, but they can easily and quickly farm the jungle, and they are viable for doing just that.

Phife1 votes

Shyv and Yi are great gankers idk what you're talking about... they have good jungl control and massive burst and damage up keep... thats why they're strong, not because they can farm really well or else they would be in top lane.

farm heavy > top

gank > jng

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Every jungle player knows that Shyvanna is not a great ganker. She doesn't have any sort of CC or burst damage to gank well, if at all, and relies exclusively on Stalker's Blade and her DPS in order to gank even somewhat effectively. She clears fast (fastest in the game if I'm not mistaken), and that is the largest, if not the only, reason to take her in the jungle. It doesn't translate well into farming the top lane though, as she just isn't that good in the top lane.

Master Yi isn't really that great of a ganker either. He has some burst but has no CC, so if he can burst down an enemy laner with the help of his allied laners he can gank well, but otherwise he doesn't have good ganks. He farms the jungle pretty fast, but has too high mana costs to be taken into a solo lane.

And I only used Shyvanna and Master Yi as examples. There are quite a few champions that are really strong in the jungle but are extremely farming-oriented, like Udyr, Aatrox, Warwick, Skarner, and more.

Phife2 votes

no but she has 600 movement speed... and with chill smite that is easy dmg and pressure, with the potential for kills.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

600 movement speed doesn't mean much when Shyvanna still doesn't have any form of CC or burst damage of her own.

I'm not stating my opinion on Shyvanna, I'm stating facts that every jungler knows about Shyvanna, and that is that Shyvanna doesn't have good ganks.

Shroom Junkie4 votes

Ikr. Whenever I go a jungler with Devourer, I make it a thing to gank lanes. I mean, you get like 2 stacks per kill right? So if you get 2 kills from one lane you just got your lane going good, and got 4 stacks, so essentially farmed 4 extra camps, got yourself more gold, got your laner gold, put the enemy laner behind, etc.

I just see junglers with Devourer never ganking ever and I'm just like "What the fuck man you're not here to farm, you're here to snowball our fuckin' lanes, otherwise just go double top scrub."

EkkoFroffles2 votes

Getting any jungler to gank anymore is like pulling teeth. I've been playing nothing but TahmKench support, and each match we're lucky if we get more than a gank or two bot, no matter how our lane's going. Maybe it's just easier for me to notice these things as a support, but I swear junglers used to put in more effort to help their laners than this.

Shroom Junkie1 votes

{quoted}

Getting any jungler to gank anymore is like pulling teeth. I've been playing nothing but TahmKench support, and each match we're lucky if we get more than a gank or two bot, no matter how our lane's going. Maybe it's just easier for me to notice these things as a support, but I swear junglers used to put in more effort to help their laners than this.

Yeah, I main top, and seeing how its about the most isolated lane you can get I'm lucky to get one gank within several games of playing it. Lucky to get one within a week now with this Sated Devourer bull shit.

EvilRabbitt2 votes

If you ever get me, just ping. Usually when I jungle, I'm trying to keep tabs on my mid and enemy jungler over anyone else because they are the only ones that can actively roam to hit your lane or me if I'm not paying attention (won't deny how often I die to a fed mid laner because no one pings mia and I'm just coming from my buff camp). I'm sure it goes for a lot of other junglers, in a sense anyhow. We aren't omnipresent and more than likely are not scrolling through every lane over and over. Jungle is a "lane" too. We have to think where the enemy jungler is and what they are doing AS WELL AS what all of you are doing. Support and Jungle are by far the biggest the roles in the game. You have to look after an entire team as much as yourself, and if you take even a minute of alone time everyone pings and freaks out then dies across the map as if they became Wiley Coyote. Not saying I disagree, I just want people to realize that jungling isn't just afk farm time. We shouldn't just be hitting camps, nor will we just be ganking. Really hard to find a medium to stick with since our time for each is dependent on how well our lanes do. If you farm to hard, they are liable to die. If you gank too often, your ganks become incredibly weak as you have no money or levels to influence with.

@Coriandr- you get 1 stack for large monsters, 1 stack for players, 2 for scuttle, 5 for baron and dragon. It's faster to hit our camps than your lane, though if we aren't hitting your lanes at all we are failing.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

I just see junglers with Devourer never ganking ever and I'm just like "What the fuck man you're not here to farm, you're here to snowball our fuckin' lanes, otherwise just go double top scrub."

No, the jungler is there to not take minions and still have some gold and exp. Double top isn't viable because it won't make double the minions spawn; one or both of you is going to have terrible cs. And you'll also split the exp and be lower level.

The fact that being in the jungle all the time means you don't have a lane to be missing from, so enemies are less likely to know you're coming, is a great side benefit, but the resources of the "fourth lane" are the main point.

Shroom Junkie1 votes

{quoted}

No, the jungler is there to not take minions and still have some gold and exp. Double top isn't viable because it won't make double the minions spawn; one or both of you is going to have terrible cs. And you'll also split the exp and be lower level.

The fact that being in the jungle all the time means you don't have a lane to be missing from, so enemies are less likely to know you're coming, is a great side benefit, but the resources of the "fourth lane" are the main point.

That may have been the start of the jungler, but it isn't anymore. Its part of the reason, but if double top were the meta nobody would think twice of it, because just like double bottom, they're sharing the XP, meaning both lanes would have equal XP.

However, now that the meta has shifted and the jungler is a thing, his new purpose is to snowball lanes. What do you see in high-elo ranked games, or the LCS, or heck, just the winner's side of the game? Ganking. Most generally, you see ganking. As a jungler, I'll try to gank at level 3 if possible, because then I can get a lane a kill, get them ahead, possibly gank more and then snowball them to carry. Whether its top, bottom, mid, or all three to get them ahead and snowball myself, or whatever.

But rarely in a game do I see the winner's jungler just sitting in the jungle, farming up for the first 20 minutes of the game until team fights, or a team fight at dragon. That's what loses a game, and even if that's how the meta started, as a filler, that isn't how it is now.

WildCard8232 votes

Did that Nunu get Devourer? That's the first problem.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

Nah. He just embodied the sort of approach the devourer junglers I've played with have used. Like I said, this doesn't even seem limited to devourer users. Junglers in general seem to be attempting ganks far less often these days. I've gone entire matches with the enemy jungler not showing up once bot lane.

ArkenStorm2 votes

{quoted}

On a related note, a lane that's down 1 kill isn't "lost" and therefore ungankable from that point on. I almost never blame the jungler, because I've jungled in the past and know how ridiculous people can be when it comes to the jungler, but I've had so many junglers refuse to show their face outside the jungle more than once or twice before things get so out of control there's no more stopping it that I couldn't help saying something to my junglers.

so much this also if your team is 0/6 at 10 minutes it's not gg either. like really?

What Is Smite2 votes

Dear Laner,

If you are looking for a Devour Jungler that will actually gank give me a call at 1-800-myteam-matters

Davy Crockett1 votes

My number is there too.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

If you've already died to Heimer 1v1 in lane, your lane is over and ganking it is an almost guaranteed double kill, especially on a low damage jungler like nunu.

The Vilemaw Icon1 votes

At best you trade a kill and one of the two of you limps to safety after the kill...

YossarianSensei2 votes

Well another thing to consider is that Sated is such a huge power spike that if lanes just don't feed for 15 minutes then your Jungler is going to enter the mid-game as Huge JackedMan

It's frustrating to deal with, but not entirely without reason

Also Sated junglers usually have terrible ganks, so if you don't have reliable CC in your lane it's a little unreasonable to expect your jungler to gank unless the enemy is really overextended. What's Shyvana gunna do, run at them?MasterYi Die?

I Am Luxanna1 votes

i sate by 14-16 mins ;)

insaiyanbacca1 votes

agreed, really the only excuse to just power farm is if your like ww and your ult isnt up so there isnt much you can do

Left Hook Larry1 votes

Devour is just a cancer item. Either the person using it has no idea how to play with it and makes it 10x harder for his team, or the person knows how to use it and can 4 shot your adc late game

Kensue1 votes

[deleted]

What Is Smite1 votes

Even if they do nerf it aatrox and any 3 hit proc champions will remain strong just because they do have that potential to get a phantom hit with their 3rd proc

StealWolverine1 votes

i dont think you understand how it works.

What Is Smite1 votes

I understand how it works and I can tell you what Riot would impliment to make it seems like a nerf in their perspective but in actuallity would be a buff to the item. What Riot would do to "nerf" Sated Devourer would be to make the phantom hit proc after 2 AA's and remove the Phantom hit from counting as an actual AA towards abilities with 3rd strike proc's. In effect what would seem to be a "nerf" would actually buff the item quite a bit considering that, after the change would occur, 3rd strike proc abilites are much more reliable to either deal a ton of damage or heal for quite a bit (See Aatrox). In all honesty Sated Devourer is in a good spot right now and the Balance Team was not BatShit Crazy when they released the item.

TotalJerk1 votes

I think it should take longer for devourer to be sated, but to balance that out, they should make kills and assists reward more stacks.

Davy Crockett1 votes

Pro-Tip: Counter jungling with a champ that has fast clears are a great way to stack devourer. just saying.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I know counter jungling can be an effective tactic, but if you die to the jungler whenever you do, like our Nunu, maybe you should stop. xD

Lajinn51 votes

I would gank more often if you stopped spam pushing them to turret =^/ I always make it a point to gank when I can unless those idiots spam push to turret, which they usually do

Phife1 votes

junglers should be ganking inbetween camp spawn - scuttle and drag. Theres no excuse.

Baby Ghoul1 votes

This needs to be in big bold letters somewhere, especially for ranked.

I appreciate junglers so much, because I cannot jungle myself, but please ganks lanes, or try to be present in lanes even if your early game isn't the best. It matters so much. I was support to this Ashe in one of my games, and she wasn't doing the best, but she was far from doing poorly. We kept getting zoned under our turret by a super present enemy jungler, ironically for me it was an Udyr, whenever I get one they never gank. By the time our jungler started to notice how much pressure we were under Ashe had died 1 or 2 times, then she said she was writing off bot lane for the rest of the game.

This was a huge factor in our loss despite top lane doing amazingly all on their own. They also didn't split push until very late in the game, a bit odd, but they still preformed amazingly and kept us afloat for a while. However all that lane neglecting crushed us so hard when we were about to win. I wish more teammates would realize this.

I don't know much about Sated Devourer truthfully, but I know it makes so many junglers neglect ganking until mid/late game. That should not be an option, and you shouldn't neglect any lane no matter what lane you are. If you're doing great and another lane needs help, you should go help them! If not to be a great human being/teammate, but because they're soon going to be a bigger problem.

I GANK LANES1 votes

yep. all you gotta do is prioritize scuttle and drag and farm normally, it takes so long just stacking it idk why people do it. sure its a pwoerspike when its sated but not so much that its worth afking in the jungle for it

KanjarHSN1 votes

When I play as a devourer jungler, my lanes keep crying for ganks but only in 20% of my games does 1 person actually know how to set up a gank for a non-hyper tank jungler. Most of the laners in my elo (silver 2-gold4) don't understand how ganks work, and continuously whine. The games where people DO know how to set up ganks however, (while I'm playing devourer), we absolutely crush the enemy lane with effective ganks and control objectives.

Long story short, learn to set up ganks before squealing. This is coming from a top lane main, that occasionally plays jungle.

Silents4291 votes

Honestly you are making a pretty rash choice to be basing junglers off of a couple you experienced in your games, you also demonstrate a misunderstanding of jungling and laning despite somehow being a jungler.

Jungle isn't required to gank your lane. You seem to think they fail if they aren't ganking or applying pressure.

If you are getting killed by ganks and the enemy tough luck, it isn't the junglers job to bail you out for playing poorly either, you as a laner have the tools to prevent both of these. And if you actually can't help it then your lane IS lost.

You don't seem to understand the sated devourer either it's built on champions who suck hella dick at ganking in the first place and rely on being well farmed and doing lots of damage. Them farming to 30 stacks is more beneficial to your team then a master Yi wasting his time applying pressure somewhere. It is meant for you to farm up quickly, it's the playstyle being promoted.

In lane it's pretty easy to know when a gank is coming based on your enemies playstyle changing, oh and warding. Those exist.

EkkoFroffles1 votes

I'm talking about since the new patch which brought with it Tahm (who I've been playing almost nonstop) and the new Devourer, not just a couple games.

Second of all, I'm saying it is part of a jungler's job to gank lanes, not even ours in particular. If we're constantly being visited by the enemy jungler, even if we're not dying, it's going to possibly zone us back to our turret and cause us to lose out on CS. Plus, as a support, I have next to no control over how much my ADC pushes. I've tried giving them advice in the past, but the people I get never respond well. There's a reason I'm playing Tahm so much. ADC over extends or tries to do something stupid? I devour them and get the hell out of there.

When I'm solo laning, I hardly ever move past the middle of my lane, unless I know the position of the enemy jungler and/or mid laner, because I'm not a moron who wants to put up a big "gank me" sign. I also ward, like I said, more than most supports when I do. So they almost never get a successful gank on me unless I have a momentary lapse or something.

Third of all, I've seen plenty of great ganks from all the devourer junglers. And those ganks, when successful, mean more stacks as well. I get farming is the primary goal until you have sated devourer, but just treating it as a jungling mini game until that point, and not even securing dragons or scuttle to help your team out somehow (and get more stacks!), does your team no good. It especially does me no good because, as I said before, I play Tahm to "nope" fools out of harm's way. It's a duo lane, therefore I am heavily reliant upon their skill level, and the ADCs I play with generally have me needing to devour them just about every time it's off CD because they can't even move out of the way of free harass because they have tunnel vision on CS.

Oh, and leave your smart ass, condescending comments at the door. Look at my matches. Look at my warding stats. The chances of me not being the one who warded the most in the match are almost nonexistent, and I aim for a ward per minute as a support.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

Here's my problem when I jungle usually: I'm too nice. I sympathize too much with laners and want to help them out as much as possible, when instead I could be jungling so I can actually gank. I spend too much time on the wings, in the brush, waiting for an opportunity to arise, only for it not to appear. I am forced then to leave, now behind the enemy jungler. And because I'm behind, I can't gank that well and have to be even more selective with my ganks. But if I just keep jungling and farming up, I feel like I'm not contributing to the team and feel like crap, so I set off to try to get a gank off...

It's a vicious cycle.

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