Boards›Gameplay

Honestly, Support itemisation is like half the reason ADC feel so oppressive to play against

Malicious Metal··93 votes·4,991 views

Supports got a huge buff to their itemisation and impact with Riot introducing items that add a bunch of additional effects to their kit. Prior a Support's worth came from their base kit but nowadays they get a bunch of fat utility items to blow their impact out of proportion.

item 3109 Makes their ADC almost untouchable and it has actually become a staple TOP LANE item item 3190 Completely negates most engages and AoE combos item 3107 Is actually in a reasonable spot right now but was completely busted on release item 3504 Is just disgusting, making ADC's actual drain tanks with huge AS and 20-35 HP on hit just tacked on for good measure

I just think Supports are just as responsible to ADC's being overbearing than ADC's alone. Hell, death's dance is only really built on Draven and PD isn't that much of a problem anyways.

Fact is that most Classes who rely on destroying the ADC are getting cock blocked by even bigger amounts of peel that Supports got in addition to their already good kits.

EDIT: Knew this would happen. Supports AMPLIFY the issue of ADC's being overbearing due to their entire purpose being keeping said ADC alive. Their itemisation gives them too much peel/shielding/healing power. Doesn't mean ADC's are innocent, far from it, their damage coupled with lifesteal is just too much at this point as it has been buffed countless times. Meanwhile Dcap still feels awful to build.

Edit 2: Aaaaand we got people say this is circle jerking about Supports being "too strong" Seems we can't just have a reasonable discussion about support without people getting butthurt about it.

219 Comments

Big Lincoln26 votes

H O N E S T L Y

i agree it's about time we took supports off their secret throne

it's silly to me riot addressed support items and not support champions

The Fuzzy 0ne28 votes

But we like our new items :(

Big Lincoln39 votes

i'd rather my champion pick matters more than the items i'm building but that's just me

The Fuzzy 0ne21 votes

Was meant more as a joke, but really these item changes actually did do that... before these items were changed we had the following choices: Karma Lulu Nami with item 2045 item 3107 item 3190 and if you didn't pick those you were trolling and it was your fault.

The changes brought back some diversity to play other champions and open up new item possibilities, at least, this is how it felt to play in all of my games

Big Lincoln11 votes

i still only see enchanters and thresh, only top lane tanks are building the tank-supp items

i'm the only tank support player i even see lul. much diversity

Marshbouy8 votes

Supports were plenty impactful before they got all of these buffs to their itemization. EDIT: lol okay support circlejerkers.

Big Lincoln10 votes

playing support wasn't freelo though so it needed buffs

l0l

Penns8 votes

Supports dont get appreciated so they needed buffs :(

Feeding Lesbian4 votes

Cuz a small buff to a support champion means that they will be played anywhere but support lol changing items tends to be the best way to handle the problem that is "support"

Zone of Endless4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mrWIYN0T,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-04T13:58:06.163+0000)

H O N E S T L Y

i agree it's about time we took supports off their secret throne

it's silly to me riot addressed support items and not support champions

LIKE ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS REMOVE THE SHITTY AP UTILITY SCALING AND BUFF THE BASE BACK AGAIN AND THEN NERF THE SUPPORT ITEMS. THAT'S LITERALLY IT.

So now you'll have champion that require you to use your abilities in conjunction with the items to save your team instead of depending on items for everything.

I mean isn't that what items does? Support your kit instead of being so good it's better than most support abilities in the game.

This will also solve the AP mage bot lane too since their utilities from items won't be as good anymore and utility support will have some stats to stand ground against them.

CasterGilgamesh11 votes

lol secret throne? every support gets gutted every time they try to solo lane the last support to solo lane was Lulu then she got gutted back to support role.Also dont even mention Janna she has gotten almost nothing but nerfs since her release and shes one of the oldest supports.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Why should a support be able to solo lane where they cant actually support anyone for a whole phase of the game

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

well for one pure tanks are allowed to then there are utility junglers and early game isnt the only time they will support someone.the fact these champions cant EVER be allowed in solo lane is just pure bonkers.then again it could just be me but i dont find it very fair but then thats just me.

SH Azykan5 votes

I mean janna mid was literally the least interactive a champ could be at one point though (literally Q minion wave, walk away from lane, 30 secs later do it again) if they tried to dive just shield + R, then group and put your gigantic shield on the adc while making your seige super strong with the peel and waveclear

Marshbouy20 votes

"ADCs are unkillable because of item 3046 lifestealitem 3504 item 3109 item 3107 item 3190 and support heals, shields, and peels!"

"So supports are contributing heavily to the reason why ADCs are unkillable?"

"no, don't nerf supports, it's ADCs that are the issue!"

rtbf22165141215 votes

{quoted}

"ADCs are unkillable because of item 3046 lifestealitem 3504 item 3109 item 3107 item 3190 and support heals, shields, and peels!"

"So supports are contributing heavily to the reason why ADCs are unkillable?"

"no, don't nerf supports, it's ADCs that are the issue!"

I mean we already nerfed supports to the point they can't carry idiots anymore since what? Season 3? 4?

If ardent doesn't work on fighters as well as adcs, then it clearly is an adc issue.

Marshbouy2 votes

I mean we already nerfed supports to the point they can't carry idiots anymore since what? Season 3? 4?

laughing it's a team game. You do your best to contribute to the team but supports shouldn't be so broken that they can completely carry 1 useless teammate.

If ardent doesn't work on fighters as well as adcs, then it clearly is an adc issue.

Ardent applies the same effects regardless of champion class. It synergizes more with the ADC class than the fighter class, but that doesn't mean ADCs are an issue. item 3116 is better with DPS mages than burst mages, but that doesn't mean DPS mages are more powerful.

The Fuzzy 0ne22 votes

supports shouldn't be so broken that they can completely carry 1 useless teammate

You're right, they need to be broken enough to carry 4 useless teammates kappa

But seriously, if other roles can carry by pure damage why can't supports carry out of pure utility?

rtbf2216514123 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fuzzy Dice79,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mrWIYN0T,comment-id=000a000000000001,timestamp=2017-07-04T15:56:16.731+0000)

You're right, they need to be broken enough to carry 4 useless teammates kappa

But seriously, if other roles can carry by pure damage why can't supports carry out of pure utility?

Because we need less supports so we keep autofill lul

The Fuzzy 0ne5 votes

I mean, autofill would still exist, you just wouldn't be filled to support as much, more likely to jg, top or ADC depending on the meta

rtbf2216514122 votes

[deleted]

The Fuzzy 0ne2 votes

How am I supposed to know that's sarcasm? Relax guy, I was making conversation... and what exactly did you say before that you think I didn't read?

rtbf2216514122 votes

So me saying supports are not the problem then saying supports are the problem is not a clear indication of sarcasm and you not reading?

Cool story bro.

I don't think you didn't read. I know you didn't read.

I'm not going through the broken quote crap. Go back and read up.

Preferably where I said "If ardent doesn't work on fighters as well as adcs, then it clearly is an adc issue."

The Fuzzy 0ne4 votes

I did read. My comment was a statement adding to yours sarcasm or not. I read your comment as relating autofill as strictly support related. None of your other comments relate to it other than in a support role capacity

rtbf2216514121 votes

[deleted]

Br0nzi3 the B34r4 votes

I think it's time you just leave this guy be man, obviously they either mistook what you said or misread. Either way just it go. It's getting to be less discussion and more personal attack and that's not cool

ZT Xperimentor20 votes

An entire three items buffed for support and one new item . . . when marksmen have had nearly every physical offensive item buffed within the past year. A few in each class update, so they wouldn't fall off in case riot buffed the other classes too much. item 1038 item 3153 item 3072 item 3812 item 3508 item 3031 item 3156 item 3139 item 3046 item 3094 item 3085 item 3142

rtbf22165141214 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mrWIYN0T,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-07-04T16:12:59.060+0000)

An entire three items buffed for support and one new item . . . when marksmen have had nearly every physical offensive item buffed within the past year. A few in each class update, so they wouldn't fall off in case riot buffed the other classes too much. item 1038 item 3153 item 3072 item 3812 item 3508 item 3031 item 3156 item 3139 item 3046 item 3094 item 3085 item 3142

Shhhh let them circle jerk supports and make the already scarce role more scarce so they up and quit because they can't find a game anymore.

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

CasterGilgamesh4 votes

oh you :D [zombie-brand-clap] [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Dextix LT19 votes

I Would disagree here.

I think the main problem is in the defensive tools of the adc's. They are far too good. And i do not mean deaths dance or stuff like that. Lifesteal alone is a tool that gives too much power to a character.

Now, if supports were bad, lifesteal would hardly be an issue. But when you PAIR defenses of the new support items and the defenses that adc's get. That makes it overbearing.

In every game i have played, adc is a role that has to be protected. Whether it be Dota or Smite. Yes, they can buy defensive items, but they are not overbearing, especially since in games like dota you have a HUGE ammount of items that you can build and even counterbuild the enemy. In LOL however, it is becoming a role that needs no protection at all, and when it gets protection, it is nearly impposible to kill.

Im my opinion this is also made worse because the assasins were nerfed to hell for NO REASON. An assasins job IS to burst you down if you are not protected. And when they cant even do that job ALONE that is a problem. Delayed damage is NOT a good thing when you have adc's lifestaling everything back in that same window.

Disagree about knights wow being overpowered. If you might remember, early on it was shit. The only reason it is good now is because 1. Adc's are overbearing. 2. The tank item rework TRASHED the tank items and made them worse than fucking support items (Good job Riot "balance" on that).

This is the result of Riot having the bring idea to nerf BOTH assasins and tank items (Making it pretty much unneeded to specialize in tank busting), adc's having inherent sustain due to their itemization AND support FINALLY not being useless additions to teams.

All of these problems still stem from the adc's, and the only fixes are for Riot to stop catering to an entire role with these game changes (Because be real, almost EVERY CHANGE currently is favouring adc's).

**If this was a support issue, then them supporting mages or bruisers would be just as impactfull. But it is not. This issue stems from them supporting adc's. Meaning that this is an ADC PROBLEM, not the support problem. **

Supports are FINALLY in a good spot. DO NOT FUCKING NERF THEM INTO THE TRASH BIN AGAIN, just because some FUCKING ADC'S are overbearing! Although this is Riot, cant expect much.......

SnakDatSmilesBak11 votes

Supports are amplifiers. They can take anyone and make them nigh un-killable. They can do this with mid, top, jg, or adc. Nerfing support itemization will take this ability away from them. They won't be able to keep their team alive as well. The problem is lifesteal is too effective right now. So while support items can make anyone nigh un-killable, adcs are the best choice because of their method and reliability of damage. The support items coupled with the survivability adcs get from their own itemization is the issue.

Granted people are building support items in other lanes but they are still using them on attack damage carries. If the problem was support itemization we would see more support items put on ap carries.

Mordepool5 votes

Life steal has been too effective for a Loooooong time

Morgan le Fey4 votes

So basically... self-survivability is balanced around supports not being the primary method of squishy-survival. Now that supports are designed to be the primary method of squishy-survival, self-survivability is too much. Ergo, the carry's ability to keep themselves alive needs to be reduced so that that's... everyone else's job, just as it once was. That means the meta will probably shift back towards the hypercarry. Sadly, then everyone will complain about hypercarries being the sole deciding factors of games or something dumb like that.

SnakDatSmilesBak6 votes

I mostly agree except I don't think we'll be in a hypercarry meta. It's going to be hard to play a hypercarry against the lane bullies that can currently go bot. I think adc survivability would be a bit more balanced with a hit to life steal. The new thornmail might help to that end and soon we might see executioners calling become a staple for adcs.

Morgan le Fey4 votes

Okay, fair enough. I'm not totally sure the new Thornmail will be as big a balance as people seem to thing, since the loss of incoming damage scaling on Thornmail's damage may well make up for the decreased lifesteal. It'll certainly push Sivir + champs who rely on Runaan's further down the tier list, though. AAing indiscriminately will not be good for an ADC's health with the GW Thornmail around.

AMYS GRAVE11 votes

Supports finally don't feel like ass to play, don't encourage them to gut the role again into a state where no one wants to play it.

Cryo007 votes

I still think PD is quite an issue. Crit, move speed, ghosting, damage reduction and attack speed for 2600 gold ? That's just ridiculous.

Teridax687 votes

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here, and I don't think OP's point was at all that supports are too good right now. Rather, I feel the core point here is that supports have been too good at keeping the marksman alive, when marksman already have excessive amounts of personal survivability.

As a class, most marksmen already have innate self-peel on their kits, whether it's through mobility or crowd control (or both) in addition to their range, which gives them an already pretty solid amount of base survivability. Add to that life steal and associated self-protective effects like Bloodthirster's shield, Death's Dance and Phantom Dancer's damage reduction, and Guardian Angel's rez, and marksmen can become pretty resilient while still dealing top-tier damage on their own. The issue right now, though, is that not only is marksman sustain too strong, as life steal + crit turns them into drain tanks far too easily, but many support items on top of that have specialized into protecting marksmen even further.

Effectively, in coordinated play it takes far too many resources to try to take down the enemy marksman, whose ability to push and kill enemy champions is comparatively far easier, so the end result feels like a game mode even more centered around the marksman on each team than it used to be. Add to that the relatively poor state of tanky and assassin itemization, and this might be the most marksman-centric meta we've had since Preseason 6.

Malicious Metal6 votes

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/msty.gif

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

If we are misunderstanding your thread that was supposed to be about ADC personal survivability, then i think it was too focused on support itemization. Right now the OP reads more like supports/support itemization is too strong, which is likely why there were as many posts misunderstanding your point (to some extent mine included).

Mig893 votes

No, he is saying support itemization is too strong in regards to protecting one class of champions(ADC). With all these recent item changes theyre basically dumbing down support so you can ignore matchups and just itemize for anything and I agree. I play support to enable the whole team. Its annoying when someone can just make their ADC a god and ignore the other three players on their team and still win

AirKingNeo6 votes

I think, aside from support items, is that ADC damage late game is way too high. I don't think they need early game nerfs because then we just go back to the last issue; being way too weak early or being way to broken when not weak early because of absurd late.

Simple solution? Lower overall stats. Infinity Edge gives way too much damage multiplying that building BoRK into Zeal into IE is just as effective and building Zeal IE Zeal. Essence Reaver is way too absurd because it gives way too many stats and proves to be powerful once a carry finds a way to use it.

Mordepool5 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/YVdMj0vj-adc-items-are-a-much-bigger-problem-than-you-thought-wall-of-math

This thread illustrates the ADC part of the Problem

Kyunsei4 votes

Yeah, but all those item could as well be used on mage or carry top laner/jungler. If ADC(Marksmen) role becomes OP after support itemization UP, you don't have to gut support item cause ADC are too strong when support are strong.

Marshbouy4 votes

ADC are the most likely champion class to have the items be put on. They deal high DPS but are squishy to compensate. The support items give them tankiness, so they no longer have a weakness.

you would have to seriously gut ADCs for them to be so ineffective that they aren't worth supporting anymore.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Don't forget about Stoneborn Pact which provides another source of sustain for allied autoattackers.

I'm (somewhat) shocked that this mastery isn't used more on tanks.

People just seem to prefer the temporary shield from Courage of Colossus.

woodvsmurph4 votes

Many tanks don't have spammable cc to make it worthwhile. It doesn't benefit you in a solo lane - the 5% hp is basically worthless by itself - especially early game and just leaves you too damn vulnerable and unable to trade with your lane opponent. Even in teamfights, courage gives you more individual survivability unless you are running knight's vow; then maybe - for teamfights - you are tankier with stoneborn.

Kloqdq2 votes

I think the main issue, aside from my three biggest offenders for imbalance, LIfesteal, Crit and Support Items, is seriously the other classes lacking anything meaningful.

What I mean by this is, the other classes either have weaker kits or the items they can build are actually shit. Tanks have really poor defensive items and with their damage being nerfed, they are unable to do anything meaningful since the tank update. They legit are building support items because they aren't doing enough damage or getting the meaningful stats needed for tanking. So it's a fucked case for tanks.

Assassins have also been fucked since their update. They were overbearing when they were updated but then nerfed to shit and now it's seriously the worst thing in the world to play them. I think this comes to their items sucking ass more than the characters themselves. They have good enough kits but god damn their items are actually shit. Leth. is weak and nerfed because adcs were abusing it and now AD assassins have been hurt heavily. AP assassins are becoming mages 2.0 with no promising late game. They need some kind of help. I still think assassins should get some kind of shield destroyer and more GW items. They can't fight a single adc at this point because they can't deal more damage than adcs can heal. Assassins therefore need tools designed for taking out targets.

Fighters, Mages, Junglers, etc and the rest are all in okay spots. They all need their own degree of work really but the 4 biggest problems right now are ADC, Support, assassins and tanks. These guys all need to be focused on and balanced before we start moving onto other classes or something. (funny how riot is pretty much planning to stop class updates after fucking up the classes again.)

DarkRitual3 votes

A lot of items for other classes are shit because ADC's used them too well and they got nerfed. item 3071 item 3053 item 3742 item 3026, lethality in general

Kloqdq3 votes

Yeah this is a pretty large problem. Riot is balancing heavily around ADCS and other classes are getting the short end of the stick. An item like black cleaver for example should have been made melee only ages ago. Same goes for a lot of items. It's just a cycle of "Welp the adcs are breaking an item again" and it's getting frankly annoying at this point.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Malicious Metal

The one buff Karthus NEEDS
Gameplay126 comments
464
votes
Viktor's Patch 6.9 entry shows that whoever worked on Vik has no idea who he truly is >_>
Gameplay224 comments
414
votes
I have achieved my final form!
Memes & Games62 comments
320
votes
There's actually an ingenious way to solve the whole FQC and Ap CDR crisis
Gameplay223 comments
280
votes
A champion should NEVER be made more clunky/less satisfying to play (Regarding Viktor's PBE changes)
Gameplay140 comments
279
votes
Malphite will be the best Camille counter
Memes & Games60 comments
257
votes