Why don't we intorduce an AD support item

Funkin Dunkin·Feb 16, 2017·9 votes·1,619 views

There are AD champs that can and often do (off meta) go support role. I don't see why there shouldn't be an item that turns into damage/attack speed/both. Just a thought for more diversity

35 Comments

OurLestradeFeb 16, 20176 votes

I still don't get this ongoing obsession with an AD support.

TequilaZombieFeb 16, 20172 votes

Magic is for pussies who are to afraid to get into the fight. We want to support our team, but we're also too manly to rely on magic. Boom! The desire for an AD support is born!

PaquayFeb 17, 20171 votes

Too afraid to get into the fight? Yet the most prevalent AD support is MF who stands at range and Es everything, lol.

TequilaZombieFeb 17, 20172 votes

Well, I can't say someone is too much of a pussy if said person has one.

Leo1024Feb 17, 20171 votes

mages aren't supports and neither is any ad champ

OurLestradeFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Magic is for pussies who are to afraid to get into the fight. We want to support our team, but we're also too manly to rely on magic. Boom! The desire for an AD support is born!

Manly supports build zero offensive stats yet still beat your face in! Taric

rtbf221651412Feb 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I still don't get this ongoing obsession with an AD support.

Ashe was supposed to be a secondary support. Look how well that turned out.

SettDownShutUpFeb 16, 20171 votes

While I like the idea, AD implies you will want to auto-attack. Which is a big nono for supports to riot. No you need to cast spells, not AA. Bad support for AAing. Bad, no biscuit.

BhagswagFeb 16, 20171 votes

Braum seems to do aight.

TequilaZombieFeb 16, 20171 votes

I mean, we have an AD champion with an AoE Attack Speed boost, an AoE Knock Up, Decent Poke, AoE Armor Shred, a Shield that gets stronger when there are more enemies around, an AoE Slow, and a way to hold multiple people in place that can't be cleansed. This whole kit screams support!

Mysticman89Feb 17, 20171 votes

Feel free to play j4 support if that's how you get your jollies. As he's melee, relic shield works fine for him. His ult doesn't really hold people in place though, just limits them to a small zone that they can still flash/dash out of.

More broadly, I feel like most if not all ad 'support' items would be trap items that aren't actually optimal for support <insert ad champ here>. Since they're supports, they'll always be super behind on gold compared to csing laners, and hence they'll always be behind the curve if they try to build AD/AS, and end up just being squishy champions that don't offer significant threat to anyone short of the enemy support unless they're snowballing.

As a result, supports are supports for the sake of the utility inherent to their kit without the need for items or levels. If base damages are high then great, a support can be picked for damage, but it's for the base damages, not for the damage they could potentially build (and sure if they do snowball off those base damages they can someitmes get away with just building damage, but you can't always rely on that). Since theres useful stuff in the champion base kit independent of their build, that frees them up to either build utility items (e.g. locket/sightstone/etc), or tanky stuff so they can survive longer to apply the stuff (which again, doesn't need AD/AP items to be useful) in their kit longer.

Funkin DunkinFeb 17, 20171 votes

No but it might allow a new type of support to emerge. I can think of a few champs off the top of my head this might benefit. Gangplank Gnar Illaoi Jax LeeSin Nocturne Shaco Shen Sion Skarner Twitch Udyr MonkeyKing XinZhao Yorick

Mysticman89Feb 17, 20171 votes

What do you mean "a new type of support"? We're talking about the theoretical addition of a single ad support item, not a complete restructuring of game mechanics.

Unless the item is absurdly OP, non-snowballing supports will always be behind on gold (and if it was that OP, laners would build it and supports would still be behind) and levels, so getting a little bit of early ad/as wouldn't change that they wont be viable as damage dealers (unless their base damages lend themselves to it), and AD/AS doesn't add utility in the vast majority of champs.

Staying alive by contrast does prolong the potential for the application of utility, which is why most of those champs would be better off building relic shield if one was to support with them (and in a handful of cases, they are [or used to be] legitimately used as supports already).

JavelinJoeFeb 17, 20171 votes

I assume you are talking about Camille, but if so, she can not do all of this (Not saying that she is not a good support though)

JavelinJoeFeb 17, 20171 votes

ADCs will abuse the hell out of it, and it will become far more popular than item 1055 and item 1083 since a passive gold generating item which gives AD stats is far better than either of these.

Funkin DunkinFeb 17, 20171 votes

No, because you do the same thing to it as you would item 3303 and no more gold if you kill a minion

Funkin DunkinFeb 17, 20171 votes

There's no reason to not allow an AD support. Especially if you get stuck 5th pick on a team that already has 3 AP users. Rare but does happen.

newyorkninjaFeb 17, 20171 votes

I mean there's always the consideration that item 3071 is kind of a support item. CDR, HP, Armor shred for your carry, speed boost so you as a melee support can stay in range? The only downside is the price and no armor shred til it's done. Hell item 3147 has a ward sweep and out of combat ms for roaming supports along with ad and lethality to keep your damage more relevant. I think the problem with having ad support items is they all would just get used on bruisers anyway (unless they're the supports which after having played a bit of dota in my days I totally support) where people right now are complaining that standard supports like Janna and Soraka are already being pushed out in favor of mages who bring the same utility but more damage. I personally don't have a problem with that but the binary of lol classes puts us in a weird spot where if I took let's say XinZhao or bot and built this stuff along with sightstone and relic would I really be called a support?

Funkin DunkinFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

if I took let's say XinZhao or bot and built this stuff along with sightstone and relic would I really be called a support?

If I took support role and built all AP and no sightstone am I really a support?

ZephyrDrakeFeb 17, 20171 votes

they are not going to make an item just for the odd case of some random AD champion wanting to go support. There are no AD champions that are designed to be a support so there is no need to make an item for them.

Funkin DunkinFeb 17, 20171 votes

That right there is the problem. All these champions but riot only built 1 AD support which is Braum. And his damage scales off his HP!

ZephyrDrakeFeb 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Funkin Dunkin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mqfJTylY,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-02-17T02:54:58.071+0000)

That right there is the problem. All these champions but riot only built 1 AD support which is Braum. And his damage scales off his HP!

Braum is not an AD support, he is a tank. Using that logic Leona is an AD support, Alistar is an AD support. There are no AD supports because they have not designed a single one and they are not going to make a random AD item for a type of champion they have not designed at all

Funkin DunkinFeb 17, 20171 votes

Incorrect because he has nothing that scales off AP. If you want to defend against Braum you build armor. Just like if you want to defend against Leona or Alistar you build MR. Just because he isn't an AD carry doesn't mean he doesn't do physical damage.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Funkin Dunkin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mqfJTylY,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-17T14:33:38.072+0000)

Incorrect because he has nothing that scales off AP. If you want to defend against Braum you build armor. Just like if you want to defend against Leona or Alistar you build MR. Just because he isn't an AD carry doesn't mean he doesn't do physical damage.

armor?

Upon reaching 4 stacks, the target is Stun icon stunned for 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 seconds and takes 26 - 196 (based on level) magic damage. that's his passive MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 105 / 150 / 195 / 240 (+ 2.5% maximum health) that's his Q MAGIC DAMAGE: 150 / 250 / 350 (+ 60% AP) that's his ult, oh look it scales with AP as well!

Sorry but he does zero physical damage outside of his autos! please learn a champion's kit before saying anything. Braum is a tank whose damage is 95% magic damage. All he has for physical damage is his autos. You want to build armor against braum? be my guest, you just wasted all those stats

Funkin DunkinFeb 19, 20171 votes

When the hell did they change Braum to magic? When he first came out it was physical damage that scaled off his own max health.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Funkin Dunkin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mqfJTylY,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-19T03:45:33.215+0000)

When the hell did they change Braum to magic? When he first came out it was physical damage that scaled off his own max health.

he has never dealt any of his skills as physical damage. All of his skills always dealt magic damage

Funkin DunkinFeb 19, 20171 votes

Honestly never knew that. Seems rather strange considering his muscular build

Mysticman89Feb 19, 20171 votes

A quick check of his patch history shows that his abilites have never done physical damage. His Q Has always scaled with his max health and done magic damage.

Now, there have been people who had adventures with top lane bruiser braum (and there was devourer braum in the jg for a bit), and titanic hydra is/was a common choice for that build, which does physical damage scaling with max health. Against either of those things, building armour might be a good idea, but building armour against support braum is unlikely to be a good idea. (And for that matter, building defence specifically for support braum is probably unwise compared to defence against actual carries.)

GinoSoldierFeb 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

they are not going to make an item just for the odd case of some random AD champion wanting to go support. There are no AD champions that are designed to be a support so there is no need to make an item for them.

I raise you Kalista. Free vision. Decent lane poke. Designed to be played in a pair. Really cool combo reliant max HP damage. Good slow. Good mobility.AN ULT THAT IS DESIGNED TO TAKE AN ALLY OUT OF JUST ABOUT ANYTHING AND THAT IS ON A FAIRLY SHORT CD. The ult especially isn't only a mere knockup. It's also a tool that allows a support to make the ADC potentially catch up in chases, cross walls, dodge and then potentially interrupt well placed ultimates in a 1v2/2v2 situation (say like an MF/Sona ultimate combo).

I have played a fair amount of Kalista support (Starting Coin) using on-hit items as core for the build (Black Cleaver, Wit's End, Frozen Mallet, Runaan's Hurricane, Executionner's Calling (Having early and cheap method of providing Grievous Wounds is bloody amazing against Soraka/Taric/Nami lanes, among others. Also an easy counter to the ADC's Heal summ spell.)

There are drawbacks, but to say that 'no AD champions are designed for support' is incredibly narrow-minded. Several champions can fit the bill. Having AD Support itemization would be goddamn amazing.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I raise you Kalista. Free vision. Decent lane poke. Designed to be played in a pair. Really cool combo reliant max HP damage. Good slow. Good mobility.AN ULT THAT IS DESIGNED TO TAKE AN ALLY OUT OF JUST ABOUT ANYTHING AND THAT IS ON A FAIRLY SHORT CD. The ult especially isn't only a mere knockup. It's also a tool that allows a support to make the ADC potentially catch up in chases, cross walls, dodge and then potentially interrupt well placed ultimates in a 1v2/2v2 situation (say like an MF/Sona ultimate combo).

I have played a fair amount of Kalista support (Starting Coin) using on-hit items as core for the build (Black Cleaver, Wit's End, Frozen Mallet, Runaan's Hurricane, Executionner's Calling (Having early and cheap method of providing Grievous Wounds is bloody amazing against Soraka/Taric/Nami lanes, among others. Also an easy counter to the ADC's Heal summ spell.)

There are drawbacks, but to say that 'no AD champions are designed for support' is incredibly narrow-minded. Several champions can fit the bill. Having AD Support itemization would be goddamn amazing.

Kalista is designed as an ADC she is not designed as support champion sorry but i am not being narrow minded i am telling you facts. I can play any AD champion as a support it does not make said AD champion one. Sorry but just because you want to play some random champion in a random off role does not mean there should be an item designed for it. When Riot decides that they want to design AD oriented champions as support then they will make items that support them

GinoSoldierFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Kalista is designed as an ADC she is not designed as support champion sorry but i am not being narrow minded i am telling you facts. I can play any AD champion as a support it does not make said AD champion one. Sorry but just because you want to play some random champion in a random off role does not mean there should be an item designed for it. When Riot decides that they want to design AD oriented champions as support then they will make items that support them

And Brand, Karma, Malzahar and Annie were designed to be mages in the midlane. Doesn't mean they can't do both. Same logic applies to Kalista and all the other potential would-be supports that don't quite fit.

There's also an enormous difference between playing Lee, Yi and Pantheon 'supports' who only vie for kills and bring little outside of damage, and playing champions like Kalista, Riven and Ashe who can actively use their kits to make their ADCs safer and stronger, the way that it is intended for supports to play.

5000000000000000Feb 17, 20171 votes

I've messed a little bit with Kalista support too. Isn't relic shield better on Kalista? When your carry executes a minion marked with your Sentinel passive, it's considered your CS. There's also Rend reset, which makes securing cannons easy.

Coin is good in general, but I feel like relic shield is better for sustain and peel later on.

GinoSoldierFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I've messed a little bit with Kalista support too. Isn't relic shield better on Kalista? When your carry executes a minion marked with your Sentinel passive, it's considered your CS. There's also Rend reset, which makes securing cannons easy.

Coin is good in general, but I feel like relic shield is better for sustain and peel later on.

My issue with Relic Shield is twofold; First, it makes your gold income unreliable at best to nonexistent at worst. In the idea that you'll be supporting through shreds and debuffs, and not straight up damage, it means your team will clear waves before you have the time to think about last hitting some of them for the proc, and really, i find Kalista hard enough to play already without making it even more complicated.

Second, in comparison to Coin, it's far easier to nail assists by lighting up Talisman of Ascension's active than with Face of the Mountain's active. See, an issue of Kalista support (i've found, anyway) is that she has trouble nailing assists in a teamfight where her job is to focus one target at a time and watch over the ADC for divers. FotM is indeed better at keeping your carry alive, but your ult should be what you rely on for that, and without assists, Kalista gets starved out of the game.

Also, you shouldn't discard the fact that Talisman of Ascension now has 45 armor to somewhat match up to FotM's health. In some matchups, it's straight up better.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And Brand, Karma, Malzahar and Annie were designed to be mages in the midlane. Doesn't mean they can't do both. Same logic applies to Kalista and all the other potential would-be supports that don't quite fit.

There's also an enormous difference between playing Lee, Yi and Pantheon 'supports' who only vie for kills and bring little outside of damage, and playing champions like Kalista, Riven and Ashe who can actively use their kits to make their ADCs safer and stronger, the way that it is intended for supports to play.

and guess what? Riot did not made any AP support item just to please any of them, in fact 90% of support items have to deal with heal/shield in some way shape or form. There is not a single AP support item that was made with any of them in mind. Also Karma's secondary role was support and when they reworked her they intended to make her into a support champion that can also be played mid. So no, your logic does not apply to kalista or any other AD champion that is played in the support role in the blue moon that it does happen