Let's Talk Vi

ModCaptainMårvelous··10 votes·2,054 views
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iS1kMw6faN8/UmlcqIv7tzI/AAAAAAAAITc/8vspaZGTQhI/s1600/Vi_Splash_2.jpg

Hey there everyone.

So why Vi? Why am I bringing her up? Well, to be honest, not many people talk about her. Don't get me wrong, I think Vi is extremely popular from a character standpoint. What I more so refer to is her in game. If she's spoken about, it's usually because she's meta...and everyone says how much they hate her ult. So let's talk about her and dissect her problems.

##Why does Vi have issues?

I'll preface this by saying that I am NOT a good player. I'm not going to propose I'm a diamond 1 Vi main who knows every aspect of everything about her. I merely like to play her a lot. That said, I want to point out some things I've found about Vi in my years of playing her. She hasn't even changed much since release, mostly number tweaks:

  • Problem 1.) Vi is basic.

There's no real polite way around this: Vi is about as pick-up-n-play as a jungler can get. She doesn't really have a lot of mechanics outside of shenanigans with auto-resets (on E) and carrying targets with a Q-flash (Which really isn't feasible as a mechanic to do.) Vi, to me, feels like a much simpler Lee Sin: A diving character who can knock around one target but not much in the way of Lee's ability to do some incredible things when you're good at him.

  • Problem 2.) Vi is reliable to a fault.

If you pick Vi, chances are that you have "little" room to screw up your plays...that said, if you do screw up, you're out of a gank/fight. With E and R being point/click and her W being a total passive, Vi can't really fuck up much sans blowing her abilities at the wrong time. However, her Q is where all the money is. If you land a Q, you can follow up for the rest of your combo. If you miss your Q...you're done unless you blow your ult in a bad situation. Compare that to a champion like Sejuani: Say she misses her Q. That sucks, but that's ok! You can possibly salvage it with W and E. It also makes playing against Vi simple (Just don't get hit by the Q). Which leads to...

  • Problem 3.) Frustrating Ult

And not just for your enemy! Vi's travel time gives you ample time to react, which makes it easy to zhyonas (And utterly stop Vi) or untargetable which breaks the ult fully. If you have the tools to counter it, you're never going to be hit by it. If you don't have the tools to counter it, you can and WILL be hit by it every single time.

  • Problem 4.) Patchwork Kit

Made back in early S3, Vi's kit is something is a mismatch with how she actually plays. Designed as a top laner, Vi has AD abilities that make you assume she should be built as something of an ability caster who weaves in auto-attacks. Yet her W increases attack speed and encourages you to constantly hit targets with your autos. This is also a problem because Vi's abilities have pretty lengthy cooldowns (Q/R) until higher levels, meaning your main damage source of proccing W encourages you to focus on auto-attacks. It's why you see goofy builds like Bork/AS Vi still work.

##Improving Vi

Beyond taking a look at divers as a whole, who suffer from being caught between the worlds of assassins and bruisers, I can think of a few possible ideas. Bear in mind, I don't consider these complete fixes but ideas that could get the ball rolling and make Vi less of a simplistic champion.

  • Give Vi an actual W.

Move Vi's W to her passive and give her a W that fits her theme. Maybe you can bring back the taunt/defensive move from her prototype kit? Maybe you can encourage the boxer archetype and have Vi bobbing, weaving or dodging in some way. Hell, maybe go back to the Zaun roots and give Vi some sort of cheap-shot ability like a kidney punch to stagger opponents.

  • More power, less reliability.

Vi needs some power siphoned form her ult. If you're keeping it as-is, maybe remove the pretty heavy damage associated with it. In return, maybe give Vi some sort of ability to delay her own attack? For example, after casting R, Vi can hold/tap R once again to dig her feet into the ground, slowing her approach. Doing so when the enemy goes untargetable or zhonyas doesn't break the tether, making it a game of chicken with who blinks first. Vi waits too long, they get to hourglass. They wait too long, free ult.

The same can be said for Vi's Q. It's the core of her ability to get into/start fights. Maybe give Vi another way in or don't have Vi's entrance so entirely focused on her Q. That said, you can still have her Q. Just give her the option to expend more resources if she DOES miss.

  • Give Vi some more tools.

Right now, Vi brings two things to a team: Damage and CC. She doesn't really have the beef to be a tanky frontliner unless she goes heavy damage. It's also why Vi's power exploded during the beginning of CotC's rework: It let her build hardcore DPS without sacrificing tankiness. Maybe give Vi some tool other divers don't have. Maybe Vi can break down walls or charge through terrain. Maybe focus on the lore and make her the type of champion where your team goes "Did...she really just go in?"

##Wrap-up.

I like Vi. I really do. I own a ton of skins, love her personality and play her more than any other champion. Despite this, I can't help but feel like I'm handicapping my team when I play her. That all my time on Vi could be better served learning Lee Sin. That I'm really not bringing enough to the table with this champion to justify picking her. Lemme know what you guys think.

TL;DR: Vi is too simple and suffers because of how simple/reliable she is. I propose making changes so Vi has more of a skill ceiling while removing some (but not all) of her reliability/damage.

23 Comments

Iręlía5 votes

Not every champion needs to be this complicated skill oriented champ. Vi mains like her for a reason, same with any champ. Some want changes and I've never seen anyone ever ask for any until you.

I think shes the epitome of a perfectly balanced jg champ.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

You assume that I suddenly want to make Vi some hyper-complex champion, which isn't true. I'm not saying Vi has to be as complex/more complex than Lee Sin. I do, however, feel that she is too simple. That she drags herself down because she has no higher complexity to do. She doesn't need to have a huge skill ceiling. She just needs to have one.

And Vi is hardly the epitome of a perfectly balanced champion. As I outlined above, whenever Vi is meta she's frustrating for people to play against because it means she's good enough to pin a target down for quite some time, reliable enough that she doesn't need much skill input -and- durable enough that she can pin down/kill a target without instantly dying. Just look at any posts from when Vi is meta to understand how much people hate fighting her and how brainless she is.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Now I have time to respond, I've been looking forwards to this!

{quoted}

-snip-

##Why does Vi have issues?

I'll preface this by saying that I am NOT a good player. I'm not going to propose I'm a diamond 1 Vi main who knows every aspect of everything about her. I merely like to play her a lot. That said, I want to point out some things I've found about Vi in my years of playing her. She hasn't even changed much since release, mostly number tweaks:

  • Problem 1.) Vi is basic.

There's no real polite way around this: Vi is about as pick-up-n-play as a jungler can get. She doesn't really have a lot of mechanics outside of shenanigans with auto-resets (on E) and carrying targets with a Q-flash (Which really isn't feasible as a mechanic to do.) Vi, to me, feels like a much simpler Lee Sin: A diving character who can knock around one target but not much in the way of Lee's ability to do some incredible things when you're good at him.

I don't mind her basic-ness really, because she delivers so well on her thematic. Whenever I feel like punching things, Vi is the perfect choice!

That said, she could certainly do with a new ability on her W and her existing W really does belong on her passive. I could not agree more with you on that.

  • Problem 2.) Vi is reliable to a fault.

If you pick Vi, chances are that you have "little" room to screw up your plays...that said, if you do screw up, you're out of a gank/fight. With E and R being point/click and her W being a total passive, Vi can't really fuck up much sans blowing her abilities at the wrong time. However, her Q is where all the money is. If you land a Q, you can follow up for the rest of your combo. If you miss your Q...you're done unless you blow your ult in a bad situation. Compare that to a champion like Sejuani: Say she misses her Q. That sucks, but that's ok! You can possibly salvage it with W and E. It also makes playing against Vi simple (Just don't get hit by the Q). Which leads to...

I agree that having only one bag of tricks (the Q leading into the combo) is kind of lame, having only one play pattern makes balance difficult, especially if that pattern is highly reliable when begun but absolutely useless if she fails to start it off right.

  • Problem 3.) Frustrating Ult

And not just for your enemy! Vi's travel time gives you ample time to react, which makes it easy to zhyonas (And utterly stop Vi) or untargetable which breaks the ult fully. If you have the tools to counter it, you're never going to be hit by it. If you don't have the tools to counter it, you can and WILL be hit by it every single time.

I've got no idea how best to deal with her ultimate. It's thematic and cool, but it eats so much of her power budget. I would love Vi so much more if she had another active ability she could use, maybe something to better help her do her job as a diver.

  • Problem 4.) Patchwork Kit

Made back in early S3, Vi's kit is something is a mismatch with how she actually plays. Designed as a top laner, Vi has AD abilities that make you assume she should be built as something of an ability caster who weaves in auto-attacks. Yet her W increases attack speed and encourages you to constantly hit targets with your autos. This is also a problem because Vi's abilities have pretty lengthy cooldowns (Q/R) until higher levels, meaning your main damage source of proccing W encourages you to focus on auto-attacks. It's why you see goofy builds like Bork/AS Vi still work.

I kind of see this too, it's almost as if she is half-duelist and half-diver. I like the focus on punching, and that shows from the attack speed theme of denting blows, but I understand there might be a better way to implement it.

##Improving Vi

Beyond taking a look at divers as a whole, who suffer from being caught between the worlds of assassins and bruisers, I can think of a few possible ideas. Bear in mind, I don't consider these complete fixes but ideas that could get the ball rolling and make Vi less of a simplistic champion.

  • Give Vi an actual W.

Move Vi's W to her passive and give her a W that fits her theme. Maybe you can bring back the taunt/defensive move from her prototype kit? Maybe you can encourage the boxer archetype and have Vi bobbing, weaving or dodging in some way. Hell, maybe go back to the Zaun roots and give Vi some sort of cheap-shot ability like a kidney punch to stagger opponents.

Perhaps she could be given an ability where she punches the ground and that cc's the enemies somehow. What do you think?

  • More power, less reliability.

Vi needs some power siphoned form her ult. If you're keeping it as-is, maybe remove the pretty heavy damage associated with it. In return, maybe give Vi some sort of ability to delay her own attack? For example, after casting R, Vi can hold/tap R once again to dig her feet into the ground, slowing her approach. Doing so when the enemy goes untargetable or zhonyas doesn't break the tether, making it a game of chicken with who blinks first. Vi waits too long, they get to hourglass. They wait too long, free ult.

I completely agree, the ultimate is too one dimensional. It's very strong in some ways while being severely weak (by necessity I'm sure) to some counter-mechanics. I'd rather they weaken it somehow so she could have more complexity in the ability or in the rest of her kit.

The same can be said for Vi's Q. It's the core of her ability to get into/start fights. Maybe give Vi another way in or don't have Vi's entrance so entirely focused on her Q. That said, you can still have her Q. Just give her the option to expend more resources if she DOES miss.

Yes, I hope Riot gives her more options in situations where she does miss.

  • Give Vi some more tools.

Right now, Vi brings two things to a team: Damage and CC. She doesn't really have the beef to be a tanky frontliner unless she goes heavy damage. It's also why Vi's power exploded during the beginning of CotC's rework: It let her build hardcore DPS without sacrificing tankiness. Maybe give Vi some tool other divers don't have. Maybe Vi can break down walls or charge through terrain. Maybe focus on the lore and make her the type of champion where your team goes "Did...she really just go in?"

I really like the theme suggestions you have here, they're really cool and would do a lot to separate her from other divers.

##Wrap-up.

I like Vi. I really do. I own a ton of skins, love her personality and play her more than any other champion. Despite this, I can't help but feel like I'm handicapping my team when I play her. That all my time on Vi could be better served learning Lee Sin. That I'm really not bringing enough to the table with this champion to justify picking her. Lemme know what you guys think.

TL;DR: Vi is too simple and suffers because of how simple/reliable she is. I propose making changes so Vi has more of a skill ceiling while removing some (but not all) of her reliability/damage.

Quality post 10/10 I really enjoyed reading and responding to it!

PokladnicaZla2 votes

Always disliked playing against her ultimate. Why can't it function like Urgot's E? A skillshot that can be missed,but if she lands it,she does what she currently does.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Right now, because it's the only thing Vi has going for her right now. Her ult is like Blitz-hook, taking up such a power budget that the rest of Vi's kit is kind of hamstringed to help it.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

It's not like we actually can change abilities and shift power accordingly.Can you imagine?

Variks the Loyal1 votes

Eh, the issue there is that it'd basically be a single-target Malphite ult.

Taliyah Rocks1 votes

I mained Vi last year, and i still consider her one of my best jungle picks (hence my name).

What makes Vi great imho is how reliable her ult is. When you press it, you WILL get to your target. (Only thing that ''cancels'' her ult so far seems to be Tristana's ult for some reason, although Trist would still get knocked up) She needs such a fail-proof ult to make up for how unreliable and predictable her Q is. (Much like how Syndra's ult is a point-and-click, to make up the fact that her three basic spells are skillshots.)

Vi is not an AD caster, she relies a lot on auto-attacks, and punching is what she does best. Her W passive allows for quick aa-E-aa or Q-aa-E burst that grants you attack speed.

I'd personnaly take a Vi over a Lee ANYTIME because of how reliable Vi is. Sure, a very good Lee Sin might do flashy plays that turn the game in your favor, but would you count on that when the game is on the line? If a Lee Sin fails at his role, he's just useless, while Vi can still pull her weight.

Another mistake i see people do is go full AD on Vi. On one side you are able to snowball a game easier, but on the grim side, if you don't, you become useless. Tank Vi is where it's all at. She still does a lot of damage, and she can withstand a lot more, allowing her to become a threatening presence in teamfights. I would only ever go Warrior over Cinderhulk if i get myself ahead really quickly. In fact my standard build is item 3047item 1401item 3748item 3742item 3194item 3071. Titanic Hydra is at the core of all her damage, allowing for massive burst if you're good at resetting autos with it's active and her E. (I also think the visual from it compliments her E really well, as if the item was created for Vi)

Her very long early cooldowns is what keeps her from being a decent top. Her trade is fine, but by the time her CDs are back up, characters like Renekton or Riven would have been able to jump on her twice. Her kit is just so good as a jungler that they had to balance her around it, sadly at the expense of her laning capabilities.

Personnaly i would have Vi no other way, but she does struggle in the current meta. It's REALLY hard to dive a squishy right now, too many tanks, shields and peel for Vi to be effective, and ADC damage tend to overwhelm her (like most divers). If the meta shifts away from an adc dominated meta, i expect her to shine again.

Linna Excel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mqMI9jhO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-24T22:56:55.093+0000)

Another mistake i see people do is go full AD on Vi.

I think assassin Vi is fine if your team is ahead and snowballing. She can fairly reliably get to the enemy back line so if she can blow up an ADC or mage, that's a fair trade.

FOR JUSTICE1 votes

Who dosent like violently fisting their opponents as they are 2v1 gangbanged? Could there be a more perfect champ???

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Nice discussion! Nobody ever brings this up and it didn't work when I tried in the past, I'm happy to see somebody else has had similar thoughts about giving her more counterplay so that her failing cases can also be made less frustrating :)

10/10 good thought experiment! I'll try and remember to add my own thoughts here when I get home from work.

Mandalorian 1171 votes

You make good points, and I enjoy that there is a civilized discussion about champion changes. However I don’t know how I feel about them in practice.

Her current passive is forgeable, and her W is the real passive, but that shield is a life saver in many situations. A W taunt however would be very helpful, and fit her lore perfectly. Like she could say “Hey jackholes! I’m over here!”

I don’t know how I feel about changing her ult. The downtown dunk is a fun ability and it’s so cool to watch. Her Q, her ult, and a chilling smite makes her a great chaser. But I do interstand that that’s very frustrating.

I like her current E, only ranged ability, and and when I do take her top, it’s a great have clear and poke. Combine it with titanic hydra, and you have a great combo.

Above all else, she is a simple champ. But I feel like she and kled are mean to be simple. New players and pros can use her effectively and have a lot of fun with her. And it’s infuriating to play a champ that needs to keep up or get ahead to be relevant. Where as Vi can still pull her weight with cc. I like that, but I get that that can be a problem too.

Overall good points, and good discussion.

Linna Excel1 votes

It's why you see goofy builds like Bork/AS Vi still work.

item 1419item 3153 for the win.

Yes, when I jungle I play shyvana.

Move Vi's W to her passive and give her a W that fits her theme.

Vi's W is too strong to be a passive. I'm actually fine with having a 3 hit passive on her kit because if you look at her, you can tell she's supposed to punch stuff. If anything I'd encourage AA based builds on her.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Nerf it a bit (Not a HUGE amount but justify it) and turn her W into a stronger defensive ability. Hell, turn it into something AA-based if you want. Vi can be pushed to a more balanced diver (like xin) or she can becoime this all-out attack diver.

Linna Excel1 votes

Here's an odd thought, what if the damage her W give scales off of both AD and bonus HP? That would allow her AA off-builds to continue but give tankier Vi players a slightly different identity of a more sustained damage dealing brawler rather than a quasi-assassin diver.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Well, the thing is, that's not really changing anything about Vi other than giving some power to another playstyle. What I'd really like is small tweaks to her kit overall rather than just number changes.

ThePaperlucky1 votes

I'm not sure if I want to play with a champion that makes me say "Did... she really just go in?". It sounds like something I would say as a response to a bad dive or just inting lol. Jokes aside, I definitely agree on giving her a concrete identity. Her kit shouldnt be simple for simplicity sakes. Right now, the only thing that screams "Vi" is that ult of her, as her identity fell into the limbo of diver and fighter.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

Seriously leave the champ alone. There is no need to change it.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Eveyrone when Vi is meta would disagree with you.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

{quoted}

Eveyrone when Vi is meta would disagree with you.

I don't really care. Majority opinion is hardly correct when it comes to game balance, particularly when it involves a champion they dislike facing in game. People are biased.

RogueWill1 votes

You are playing vi kinda wrong so I'll help you out a tad.

First, vi ain't as basic as you think, there is actually a lot of animation reset you can do with her Q and R (and of course her E). Her Q gives you an extra aa for free (similar to old alistar headbutt bug). To perform just do a movement cancel technique during the dash of the Q (after the second cast) if perform correctly you will aa simultaneously with your Q hitting (and if you have good reflexes you can perform an E aa reset right afterwards to proc your W instantly). Similarly your R can cancel Q windup and add an extra aa, however animation canceling with your ult is way trickier to pull as there is less frames available.

The other cancel animation you can perform is after your W procs (the wind up is different and slightly longer) on your 3rd attack towards your four. Honestly this one can easily be replaced by just activating E again so the benefit of is is doubt able.

Her W is there so she can clear the jungle, that is pretty much the reason it is there. It adds a lot of burst to kill camps and adds a lot of burst to ganks with the 10% hp hit but the attack speed burst is just for the camps. (btw lee has a similar attack speed buff on his passive for teh same reason, you don't see him aa much). You are supposed to build her as a physical caster with tons of CD reduction and adding some resistances here and there to help her survive, and as such you usually build her as a pseudo assasin or buster, Graves build is a good example. item 3078 item 3156 item 3026 item 3053 item 3025 item 3071 are all good options for vi because it gives her plenty of raw stats for her burst while helping her survive.

The other semi viable build is off tank vi, which focus more on survavility and lock onto targets. This build survives for way longer and deal extraordinary well as a tank buster but lacks much of the damage to kill the squishes fast enough. usually this build is only advisable if you already have another physical assasin on your team and/or you lack initiation. item 3046 item 3075 item 3143 item 3025 item 3153 item 3065 item 3124 are more used items where you focus more on more constant dps and tank items.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

So, here's the thing: pretty much every single thing you've said I already know about. The problem is that it's not the type of mastery/advancement I'm talking about. Vi has lots of AA resets but...not much else. Compare this to other jungler advanced mechanics: Lee Sin ward-hop shenanigans. J4 flag tricks. etc. More importantly, this is all stuff that can help the team in other ways: Lee can knock an enemy back into his team. J4 can lock teams in cataclysm. Vi doesn't have any of that. Vi is, by and large, a selfish character who really only helps herself. It also means that the extent of skill expression is how fast you can kill a target. Counter argument is of course that assassins do that too. However, assassins also worry far more about positioning and escape routes, which in turn relates to the counterplay aspect. Something Vi rather lacks.

Now, in terms of builds you've listed they're....not that great on Vi. If a Vi is able to get a lot of auto-attacks off, the enemy is either perma-locked or kinda brainlessly attacking you. Even a semi-mobile ADC should be able to counter this. On top of that, Vi's forced into defensive itemization because she doesn't have the defensive steroid many other characters have, nor the mobility they have. This is more a symptom of the meta but frankly, your secondary build is almost never working with AS because Vi can't stick to a target like Xin or Sejuani can.

The core point is that you're misinterpreting that I want Vi to have skill expression in her own kit. While nice, I'm more concerned about giving Vi things that can assist her team and coordinate for better capability. It's why I suggested things like a taunt and to give Vi something to bring to the table other than damage or CC. Still, overall, basically everything you've said is something I'm aware of and/or know about. It's just not really good skill expression nor does it give me tools to assist my team beyond "kill guy faster".

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I certainly think she could use a new W. I've always liked Vi, but I always found myself getting rather bored or burned out on her a lot quicker than other champions (I'm a variety guy, so I bounce between champions a lot). And I think that's because she is very binary and only has one way to play. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but doing that one thing, as you said, isn't very interesting beyond 'run in and start punching.'

That's certainly appropriate, of course, and she isn't the only champion like that. But other champions do it in a lot more interesting ways. Kled, for example; same game flow, dive onto the backline, but he has a lot of cool little quirks like his second dash cast, his tethered Q, his ult speed up, and of course, Skaarl running away and coming back. Vi's coolest thing is her AA reset and charging Q.

Vi should feel and play a lot like a street fighter, I think. I don't know exactly how, but a new W would be awesome for her.

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