Let's talk Zed and Talon

Akesgeroth··11 votes·2,718 views

I think no one will argue nowadays that even after Zed finally got a nerf to his ability to blink away after popping his ult, he's still mostly superior to Talon. But why is that? First of all, why am I even comparing them? Well, they have very similar niches: They're both squishy melee champions who rely on dealing large amounts of physical damage in burst. Now, Talon tends to snowball much harder than Zed if he is fed early, but also falls off much faster if he isn't. Let's take a look at the strengths both characters have over each other:

Talon:

  • His blink to his target is on a short cooldown, as opposed to Zed's being on his ult
  • Has a powerful on-hit attack reset
  • His ult stealths him, making it hard to focus him if used properly
  • Much easier to use considering how Zed requires greater awareness because of his reliance on his shadows

Zed:

  • Greater mobility thanks to the use of his shadows
  • Energy champion
  • Poke has a longer range

So, how do these compare? Well, at first glance Talon seems to have an advantage, but the way these work give Zed the advantage if he's played properly, for these reasons:

  1. Zed has a much greater ability to disengage, giving him greater safety in a team fight.
  2. Zed is a much better laner since his poke has greater range and he doesn't run out of mana.

In truth, the one advantage Talon has over Zed is in the way mana works: Energy may recover quickly, but it means you can't spam abilities every cooldown. However, for Talon, this means that as long as he has the mana, he can spam his abilities as often as he wants. And though over time, energy is more efficient than mana because of the way it regens, in a team fight a full mana bar will trump a full energy bar quite often.

If you have any more comments, add them. I'm interested in how we can compare both champions, see what parts of their gameplay are bad and which are good. Maybe find ways to improve them while also making them more different.

80 Comments

Divewing7 votes

It's more/always been a case of risk versus reward, Talon is far riskier but has much higher reward, whereas Zed is less risky, but has less reward.

Akesgeroth1 votes

I guess that would explain why Talon snowballs harder but also falls off harder.

Divewing1 votes

Talon only falls off harder if he cannot 100-0 the enemy mid/adc late game, if he can, hes actually potentially better than Zed since theres likely no way hes simply RUNNING out of the fight so he has no other choice than to commit. Basically, Talon needs to always be ahead or have item 3031 in order to achieve his purpose without getting himself killed

FluffehPoro4 votes

Hmmm.... I always felt like zed does wayy more damage then Talon. But it also takes more skill to use zed to get the extra damage off etc. I feel like all the assassins are really strong. They always have been though.

I think both have their +'s and -'s. I dont think any of them need any changes. I would like the silence back on talon though </3

Akesgeroth2 votes

Shows you didn't play before S3. In fact, back in S2, I made a thread on the old forums discussing how assassins were mostly unused and for what reasons. Back then, assassin burst was high, but armor was also much more effective. Marksmen were also much stronger then. Essentially, assassins either stomped the other team or fell off in mid game and became useless past the 30 minutes mark. S3 changed that.

FluffehPoro1 votes

{quoted}

Shows you didn't play before S3. In fact, back in S2, I made a thread on the old forums discussing how assassins were mostly unused and for what reasons. Back then, assassin burst was high, but armor was also much more effective. Marksmen were also much stronger then. Essentially, assassins either stomped the other team or fell off in mid game and became useless past the 30 minutes mark. S3 changed that.

I started at the middle of Season 2. Akali was very strong and Talon. That silence was just deadly. And dont even get me started on Kass XD!

The S2 bans for mids I always saw were Akali Kassadin Leblanc Talon Those are assassins. And they did so much work. The silences were scary. The damage was real. S2 was scary XD. The Age of Talon and Kass were real.

Akesgeroth1 votes

You know, I hadn't thought about it, but you're right. I didn't see Talon banned much past the first week he was released, nor did I see Leblanc banned a lot because she used to fall off so hard past 20 minutes, but Akali and Kass were definitely banned a lot.

FluffehPoro1 votes

{quoted}

You know, I hadn't thought about it, but you're right. I didn't see Talon banned much past the first week he was released, nor did I see Leblanc banned a lot because she used to fall off so hard past 20 minutes, but Akali and Kass were definitely banned a lot.

Leblanc did fall off mid-late game but I seen some people who carried with her darn good. And Talon did get banned quite a bit because he could jump on you which silenced you and then just killed you without you being able to even get a combo in and for a mage that was just deadly. Actually for any champion that is deadly. You can't use any summoners or skills for what like 1 sec? 1.5? Or maybe .6? I don't remember to be honest.

Silence op @_@. I am both glad and sad that there is only 1 champ that silences now? Cho? Fiddle can fear... It kinda works the same way... Oh wait Malz can silence... Now I am going to try to figure out how many champs can silence XD! I am not good at remembering but anyways....

I feel like Zed is more powerful then Talon atm. But if Talon still had his silence that would have tipped the scale and made me believe that talon was better then Zed.

Akesgeroth1 votes

Fear works more like a stun since it stops you from doing anything. But as for silences, Fiddle has one on his bird, you also have Cho, Malz, Blitz, Soraka and Garen. It's true they've taken silence away from many champions, seems to be going the way of blind.

XeroKimo4 votes

Other things to add

Talon has more advantage in team fights as he has a lot of AOE, His burst is also considerably quicker

For Zed, he can assassinate people in team fights and get out of a safe position to wait on cds

Akesgeroth1 votes

True. They're similar in roles and build, but because of how their abilities function, they seem to affect gameplay very differently. Zed wants to take out one target and get the hell out of there. Talon wants to get into the enemy team and hit as many people as he can with his AoE.

Spinning Axes3 votes

Hey, noticed the argument in the replies here, thought I'd give my two cents.

By the way, Arsames is Plat I, not diamond, let's get this straight.

I am Diamond IV, so don't use that bullshit excuse of "rank = skill."

Moving on, Talon and Zed are quite similar.

I don't play as much Talon as I do Zed, but I definitely have played both of them to an extent.

They both have the same goal, and they both do it in the same fashion. DIve the backline, kill the highest priority, and attempt to get out.

While their laning is quite different, and is favorable for Zed, Talon more than makes up for it with his snowball ability. Yes, they are different champions, if they were the same, we wouldn't have both. They are similar, however, simply by the fact that their job in a comp is the same as any other AD assassin.

And yeah, you might argue I haven't play Talon enough. Go ahead, I really don't care.

I know for a fact I know what I'm talking about, whether you like it or not, Arsames.

Arsames2 votes

They are both decent champions, the better player is what matters, downvoted for pointless low el0 QQ thread.

Akesgeroth15 votes

I didn't read the OP

Stop posting.

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

Stop posting.

I did read the OP, it is low el0 QQ thread with nothing accurate or worthwhile to say about Talon and Zed. Claiming Zed has better team fight, rofl, just rofl.

Akesgeroth9 votes

It's not a QQ thread by any definition.

Arsames2 votes

{quoted}

It's not a QQ thread by any definition.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Akesgeroth

You are silver, you haven't played Zed or Talon, you pretend to know what you are talking about but it is painfully obvious to anyone who plays Zed and Talon that you don't know what you are talking about. You can't compare those two champions, they are NOT similar, they have a very different playstyle, itempath, damage potential, resource management and snowball.

Also, not a QQ thread?

"see what parts of their gameplay are bad"

There is no such a thing as bad gameplay, only bad players.

SlytherinUmbreon4 votes

Leblanc's silence begs to differ. As does Release Xin Zhao.

Divewing9 votes

you better back the fuck up friend, for all you know this account could be a smurf, and he is in fact a master talon/zed main, but also plays alot of LeBlanc, Kassadin, and Akali.

It seems he's been playing the game for a rather long time, and even if he is silver, does that make him wrong?

Akesgeroth10 votes

But his dick is bigger than mine!

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

you better back the fuck up friend, for all you know this account could be a smurf, and he is in fact a master talon/zed main, but also plays alot of LeBlanc, Kassadin, and Akali.

It seems he's been playing the game for a rather long time, and even if he is silver, does that make him wrong?

So clueless that he doesn't know what Diamond icon looks like, k.

SlytherinUmbreon7 votes

Maybe people would realize you were a diamond if you said something intelligent, instead of whining/raging like a Bronze whenever you hear something you don't agree with? Just a thought.

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe people would realize you were a diamond if you said something intelligent, instead of whining/raging like a Bronze whenever you hear something you don't agree with? Just a thought.

Nope, majority of this games player base are low el0 garbage fr00bl0rds, they don't know what they are talking about and pretend to understand the game, when a higher el0 player says something, they spam downvote because of their lack of game knowledge and understanding of champions. Low el0 fr00bs think Zed and Talon are similar, NEWS FLASH, they are NOT.

JAGMAG5 votes

guys dont argue with him hes from EU that means his salt levels are out of control and hes probably dehydrated from all the salt just watch and sadly shake your heads as he sinks deeper and deeper into the salt mines

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

guys dont argue with him hes from EU that means his salt levels are out of control and hes probably dehydrated from all the salt just watch and sadly shake your heads as he sinks deeper and deeper into the salt mines

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=JAGMAG

A bronze 5 fr00b expressing his racism towards EU players, rofl.

JAGMAG4 votes

you cant even spell noob right noob and its not racism dumb ass lol its impossible to be racist a a region in the world learn English and definitions then come back try again

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

you cant even spell noob right noob and its not racism dumb ass lol its impossible to be racist a a region in the world learn English and definitions then come back try again

You are not a noob, you are a fr00b and a racist, stay low el0.

JAGMAG2 votes

How am I racist noob last time I checked eu has more then one race in it or did you guys go on another mass genocide wile no one was looking?

JayenKei2 votes

It's okay being in diamond is the only thing he has going in his life. Which is probably why he feels the need to exert certain dominance behind a computer screen because he's insecure. If it's not that then I guess he's just a douche that's not worth your time op c:

Anyways here are my thoughts

Talon certainly has better team fight simply because of his aoe damage however I wouldn't go as far as to say that it is good. If talon and zed were equal in Farm, exp, etc then I do think talon is a much more reliable assassin because his damage is pretty straightforward. However zed is forgiving, an extremely scary duelist in the right hands and a very good tactician in the right mind (understanding when to split and apply pressure, discerning when to go in and kill the apc/adc etc

LankPants2 votes

I'd just ignore him. Being good at the game and knowing anything about the game are two very different things. All you need to look at to know that is Doublelift.

S3ntinel2 votes

OMG DIAMOND HOLY CRAP I'M SCARED ALL HAIL FAKER GOD OMG. Dude. Please. Don't hurt yourself. I know you're one of those people that just goes around to posts and comments on how stupid they are. Here is your logic. He doesn't play a lot of Talon/Zed, so he doesn't know anything about him. This is like you telling a paleontologist that because he didn't actually meet and ride dinosaurs, he doesn't know anything about him. I don't play Fizz, but I still know a lot about him (and how FREAKING STUPID HE IS). Just chill out. Contrary to popular belief you don't know everything. Its a fine post. Now get a life.

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

OMG DIAMOND HOLY CRAP I'M SCARED ALL HAIL FAKER GOD OMG. Dude. Please. Don't hurt yourself. I know you're one of those people that just goes around to posts and comments on how stupid they are. Here is your logic. He doesn't play a lot of Talon/Zed, so he doesn't know anything about him. This is like you telling a paleontologist that because he didn't actually meet and ride dinosaurs, he doesn't know anything about him. I don't play Fizz, but I still know a lot about him (and how FREAKING STUPID HE IS). Just chill out. Contrary to popular belief you don't know everything. Its a fine post. Now get a life.

False analogy, opinion discarded, low el0 fr00b, what a surprise.

S3ntinel2 votes

Thank you. I really appreciate you backing up my post. Its nice to see you showing the world how much of an idiot you are. Have a great day all. And remember, don't be like this guy.

Taredom1 votes

{quoted}

you better back the fuck up friend, for all you know this account could be a smurf, and he is in fact a master talon/zed main, but also plays alot of LeBlanc, Kassadin, and Akali.

It seems he's been playing the game for a rather long time, and even if he is silver, does that make him wrong?

Completely irrelevant to thread but if that's his smurf account, why post on that? Rather than the account with more credibility towards the subject?

I agree that they fill a similar niche but they both bring different things to the table. Only thing I would really want for Talon (and it would be broken as shit) would be for his cutthroat to be able to go to allies, also maybe a different passive that actually does something for him (iirc it was actually broken for a very long time too.)

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

It isn't an ad hominem, because your rank has direct relevance to your knowledge and skill with the champions and the game.

Troy2426211 votes

Judging their post by this standard is indeed an ad hominem. I'll explain.

If a person so intellectually deficient has never said anything scientifically correct in their entire life said that when they drop their rubber ball, it will fall to the ground because of the force of gravity, will it no longer fall towards the ground?

This is the danger of using rank to determine the merit of a comment instead of determining the validity of their position with empirical evidence.

2gud4nubs2 votes

This guy is a loser with no life, Faps to league.

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

This guy is a loser with no life, Faps to league.

mad cuz bad, topkek.

2gud4nubs1 votes

no life expert ^

Divewing6 votes

downvoted for not realising it's a discussion between the 2 differences between similar champions.

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

downvoted for not realising it's a discussion between the 2 differences between similar champions.

You are clueless, they are not similar champions.

Divewing8 votes

cough AD assassins..... That's a similarity right...? Melee? Squishy? Scale only off AD?

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

cough AD assassins..... That's a similarity right...? Melee? Squishy? Scale only off AD?

So what? Those words are irrelevant. I am wasting my time, if you actually understood the great differences between champions, you wouldn't be a low el0 silver player.

Divewing8 votes

You main trundle? Cos you are hella troll

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

You main trundle? Cos you are hella troll

I main Zed and Talon, unlike you and the fr00bl0rd who made this thread. I know what I am talking about when I say they are not similar.

LankPants1 votes

Assassins are one of the two most homogenised classes in the game, alongside ADCs. (and I say this as someone who plays a lot of ADC) All assassins have the exact same goal and very similar ways of achieving that goal. Even being built AD or AP has a minimal effect on an assassins play style outside of the lane phase.

They all have relativity similar tools that serve the same niche with somewhat varied implementation.

As an example I'll compare Zed, Talon, Akali and Fizz.

  • A reliable gap closer -Death Mark -Cutankles -Shadow Dance -Urchin Strike

  • A semi reliable or reliable escape -Living Shadow/Death Mark -Shadow Assault -Twilight Shroud -Playful/Trickster

  • Three major damage abilities -Contempt for the Weak/Razor Shuriken/Shadow Slash -Noxian Diplomacy/Rake/Shadow Assault -Mark of the Assassin/Crescent Slash/Shadow Dance -All of Fizz's abilities (even though that's 4, because Fizz)

  • Often a damage amp -Death Mark -Mercy/Cutankles -Akali lacks one -Chum of the Waters

The basic point here is that assassins are very alike each other because of their somewhat rehashed skills. Compared to classes like Tanks, Bruisers and of course the two most diverse classes the Mages and Supports all assassins are alike.

Arsames1 votes

{quoted}

Assassins are one of the two most homogenised classes in the game, alongside ADCs. (and I say this as someone who plays a lot of ADC) All assassins have the exact same goal and very similar ways of achieving that goal. Even being built AD or AP has a minimal effect on an assassins play style outside of the lane phase.

They all have relativity similar tools that serve the same niche with somewhat varied implementation.

As an example I'll compare Zed, Talon, Akali and Fizz.

  • A reliable gap closer -Death Mark -Cutankles -Shadow Dance -Urchin Strike

  • A semi reliable or reliable escape -Living Shadow/Death Mark -Shadow Assault -Twilight Shroud -Playful/Trickster

  • Three major damage abilities -Contempt for the Weak/Razor Shuriken/Shadow Slash -Noxian Diplomacy/Rake/Shadow Assault -Mark of the Assassin/Crescent Slash/Shadow Dance -All of Fizz's abilities (even though that's 4, because Fizz)

  • Often a damage amp -Death Mark -Mercy/Cutankles -Akali lacks one -Chum of the Waters

The basic point here is that assassins are very alike each other because of their somewhat rehashed skills. Compared to classes like Tanks, Bruisers and of course the two most diverse classes the Mages and Supports all assassins are alike.

"All assassins have the exact same goal"

Stopped reading there. Having the same role doesn't mean you have the same playstyle or are similar, you low el0 gold 5 fr00bl0rd.

I just look you up: http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=LankPants and see that you don't play Zed and Talon, yet you want to convinve me that they are similar, rofl, keep dreaming, I don't take low el0 players serious.

insaiyanbacca2 votes

if your so good at this game then why are you arguing with low elo if only your opinion seems to matter to you and you know your right why waste your time arguing when you could be climbing out of your trash plat rank and hopefully get higher then diamond 5 this season :P

stealthfox942 votes

Sigh this argument again. Talon is easier to play has more AOE damage, more CC, Stealth, and an ult that is more usefull in teamfights than Zed's. There ARE reason's to pick Talon over Zed.

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