"Everything needs a counter" is not good design.

Akesgeroth·May 30, 2015·60 votes·3,495 views

I hope this thread doesn't get drowned in the ocean of tears Ekko has unleashed.

Anyway, I often hear the statement in the title: "Everything needs a counter". And by a "counter" I don't mean "It needs to be possible to play around it", but "It must be possible to negate this ability". As if an ability is not balanced if it cannot be countered specifically. However, let's take this statement:

It must be possible to counter X.

The issue I see with it is that it can be said this way too:

It must be possible to make X useless.

True, not all counters make things useless, but they're usually so strong as to make no difference. Worse, we start getting counters to counters. As an example, armor counters physical damage. In turn, we have armor penetration, which counters armor which counters physical damage. So basically, if a team gets nothing but physical damage, you're supposed to stack armor. But then they can still get away with it if they stack armor penetration.

I'm not saying counters are always bad, but rather that it's not always bad if something doesn't have a specific counter. Sometimes, it's fun for your abilities to just do what they're supposed to do all the time. As for counters themselves, I feel like you should be sacrificing a lot to get them. Let's compare LoL to another moba, DotA 2. True, stats don't work the same way, but both games have armor and armor penetration. Now, armor is a fairly common stat and is something most heroes will get naturally. Tanks and supports get armor in their builds and most hard carries in that game are "agility heroes" who use the agility stat which grants them damage, attack speed and armor. Armor penetration however is a very rare stat, available only on a handful of items and isn't that effective. The amount of armor reduction is fairly trivial late game and is mostly useful to gankers in the early game. In fact, when you want armor penetration in DotA 2, you don't think "I'm going to build this item", but "I'm picking this champion who has abilities which reduce armor".

So, what are my points?

Not everything needs a counter.
Counters should be something which heavily gimp you in another area, meaning it's not a good idea to get them unless you really, really need them.
Item which function as counters should not be part of the standard item build of any champion except in rare exceptions.

Also note that I am not saying that an uncounterable ability or stat is necessarily balanced. But maybe instead of a counter, it needs a nerf?

Also, buff because I like him.

57 Comments

redniwediSMay 30, 201515 votes

I came in here to try and argue a few of your points based on what can be read before actually entering a thread, but you've covered all your bases fairly well. Well written.

AkesgerothMay 30, 201515 votes

If you do see something wrong with what I said, do point it out. We don't talk enough about more general design decisions on this board IMHO and this is a topic which has bothered me for a while.

TehNACHOMay 31, 20157 votes

Who down voted you, lol.

For very specifically the Armor Penetration argument, I wish Riot notices the golden opportunity they can take to really diversify offensive builds. Flat Penetration for example falls off just as hard (actually harder technically) than not having any penetration at all if the opponent builds armor, whereas Percentage Penetration requires the opponent to have a lot of armor to really get the most mileage out of it.

Boom, easy way to meet point 2. If, for example, Armor Penetration items had greatly inflated armor penetration stats and greatly deflated stats of everything else, you are creating strong niches for it that you can't necessarily just buy as a one-size fit all answer to everything. If you invest in a lot of flat penetration, you're going to do just as great attacking squishy targets but fall off way harder against people who appropriately build tank. If you buy Percentage Penetration, you're going to scale really well against tanks, however have inferior dueling power against squishy targets.

AkesgerothMay 31, 20156 votes

I think this is the answer. To take DotA 2 as an example again, it has an item named "Medallion of Courage". It provides decent armor and a small amount of mana regeneration. It has an active effect which removes the armor it provides from you but also reduces your target's by the same amount. As it takes an inventory slot and provides little stats but when used in the right situation it becomes very powerful.

67chromeMay 31, 20159 votes

I agree with what you're trying to say.

But using DotA seems like a bad game to use as an example. That game contains a looooot of exceptionally hard counters. Also some pretty ridiculous armor penetration and anti-armor counters.

AkesgerothMay 31, 20152 votes

I was not saying DotA 2 was a game which doesn't use counters too much. In fact, it does it more than LoL. You have CC to counter carries, BKB to counter CC which counters carries and ults which go through magic immunity which counter BKB which counters CC which counters carries. However, the Medallion of Courage was a good example of what I consider a "healthy counter".

Blade of JusticMay 31, 20153 votes

I miss Executioner's Calling.

Gone are the days of me buying it despite my team calling me a noob for doing so and, in a obvious twist, shutting down the 20/2/3 Warwick.

Yosuke ApperuMay 31, 20151 votes

I feel like they had no actual reasons to remove it, yet something else that mages keep (morrelonomicon) That AD champions can't have. It did counter mundo hella hard but so does anything with grievous wounds.

JustMyBassCannonMay 31, 20153 votes

Not everything needs a hard counter. Most everything needs counter*-play.* The ability to play around it.

AkesgerothJun 1, 20151 votes

Probably a better way to phrase it, yes.

SairentosutokaMay 31, 20151 votes

Someone make a TL;DR

ChromeFluxxMay 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Someone make a TL;DR

I really hate everyone who says this. Like there's no Tl;Dr for most things, Somethings just have to be said the way they are meant to be read. Read it if you're interested, don't if you're not. but don't ask for a shortcut. not to be dick.

Yosuke ApperuMay 31, 20153 votes

Also sometimes things are already the TL;DR version.. I'm sure OP could have dragged his post out for pages.

AkesgerothMay 31, 20152 votes

You're right about that. I had a lot more to say but didn't want to make it too long.

manbearswineMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

available only on a handful of items and isn't that effective.

desolator and medallion aren't that effective? I'm pretty sure they are... But well,that is flat pen,which is very different from %pen,but some heroes have cleave,but well,dota stats work differently,and there is a sense in %pen in the way it is in league(it's part of the adc's power curve,remove it and they won't be able to kill bruisers fast enough,compensate them for it's loss and they will obliterate squishies)

The amount of armor reduction is fairly trivial late game and is mostly useful to gankers in the early game.

Not really,it's kinda relevant throughout the entire game.

So, what are my points?

Not everything needs a counter.

Counters should be something which heavily gimp you in another area, meaning it's not a good idea to get them unless you really, really need them.

It depends what you call "everything",if you mean every single ability then I agree,if you mean champions then take a look at thresh,when he is strong(which he has been forever) you just see him every game(competitive or otherwise),this is obviously a problem(just not to riot,cause #lcsbigplays),so in fact every champion needs to be good and bad against/with certain things,or you just end up with thresh instead.(mind you countering things is a strength,and SHOULD come with some sort of a weakness,otherwise you get a concept which is even worse than thresh)

Item which function as counters should not be part of the standard item build of any champion except in rare exceptions.

last whisper might be core but it is bought rather late,so it's not exactly core(it's infact always built to counter armor,and by lategame the tank should have a lot of it,so it is built as core in the lategame,but sometimes built sooner(for example remember legolas varus?)),in contrast last whisper being a core and rush on zed...well...that's something different.

Also, buff because I like him.

No,his laning phase is just non interactive,it needs to be changed before he is buffed.

AkesgerothMay 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

desolator and medallion aren't that effective? I'm pretty sure they are... But well,that is flat pen,which is very different from %pen,but some heroes have cleave,but well,dota stats work differently,and there is a sense in %pen in the way it is in league(it's part of the adc's power curve,remove it and they won't be able to kill bruisers fast enough,compensate them for it's loss and they will obliterate squishies)

Desolator provides quite a bit of damage, but nothing else. And its effect is a UAM (on-hit effect) and in DotA 2, on-hit effects do not stack. And yes, lifesteal is considered a UAM. That means if you get desolator, you're giving up quite a bit. As for medallion, until very recently it couldn't be upgraded into anything, provided little stats and you had to debuff yourself to debuff your opponent. Very situational. Compare those to Last Whisper in LoL. It only provides 40 AD which granted isn't really good compared to other AD items but the armor penetration is much better than the Desolator's AND it doesn't prevent you from using on-hit effects, namely lifesteal. This means that in DotA 2, Desolator is a nice item built by gankers who go for supports while in LoL, Last Whisper is built by every single marksman as a standard part of their build and by many other AD champions who scale better with it than Black Cleaver. And let's not even gets started about Black Cleaver.

Not really,it's kinda relevant throughout the entire game.

Depends. If you're using it to kill carries, it's only useful early on. Using it against carries in late game unless you're a support who runs away and lets your team deal with it isn't such a good idea. Remains useful if you use it to kill supports.

It depends what you call "everything",if you mean every single ability then I agree,if you mean champions then take a look at thresh,when he is strong(which he has been forever) you just see him every game(competitive or otherwise),this is obviously a problem(just not to riot,cause #lcsbigplays),so in fact every champion needs to be good and bad against/with certain things,or you just end up with thresh instead.(mind you countering things is a strength,and SHOULD come with some sort of a weakness,otherwise you get a concept which is even worse than thresh)

Yes, that would be what I mean. I'm not saying counters are bad design. I'm saying that thinking everything should have a specific counter built into the game to nullify it is bad design. Sometimes, when an ability is strong, the answer should be to play around it, not have a way to make it useless.

last whisper might be core but it is bought rather late,so it's not exactly core(it's infact always built to counter armor,and by lategame the tank should have a lot of it,so it is built as core in the lategame,but sometimes built sooner(for example remember legolas varus?)),in contrast last whisper being a core and rush on zed...well...that's something different.

Black Cleaver could be another example. Either way, I used it as a good example because even though it's almost always built late game, the fact of the matter is that it's built 95% of the time if the game reaches that point. This is what I feel is a "bad counter". This means either armor is so strong that you have no choice but to build Last Whisper or that despite supposedly being a "niche" items, Last Whisper is so strong that it goes into every build. Let's compare it to void staff: because of the way the game functions, people are far less likely to stack MR. Building Void Staff actually becomes a decision: "Are these people stacking MR? All right, I should build Void Staff, but then I'm giving up on survivability/more damage. No? Hmm, maybe this other item would be better then. Wait, four of them have no MR but this one guy has a Spirit Visage, Merc Treads and a Banshee's Veil. Do I want to sacrifice damage to the rest of his team to deal with him or can I ignore him and kill his team more efficiently?"

I'm saying going for a counter should not be the "go-to" option. There should be some thought involved. Let's take QSS/Mercurial Scimitar against Malzahar. It's almost guaranteed AD characters will build them if Malzahar is on the opposing team. I think that's bad design. They don't have to take anything else into account, it's "Malz is there, build QSS/Scimitar". Instead, they should have to ask themselves what they give up to get that. They should be wondering if it's worth it just to counter Malzahar. And maybe they should be thinking "Well, they have two mages so the MR is good" or "I can also use it against the Warwick" and what not.

No,his laning phase is just non interactive,it needs to be changed before he is buffed.

I was jesting.

manbearswineMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Desolator provides quite a bit of damage, but nothing else.

Armor shred?

And its effect is a UAM (on-hit effect) and in DotA 2, on-hit effects do not stack. And yes, lifesteal is considered a UAM.That means if you get desolator, you're giving up quite a bit.

I don't know anymore,they keep changing those,are you sure that is true for this patch? I just don't play carries much so I don't particularly follow these anymore.

As for medallion, until very recently it couldn't be upgraded into anything, provided little stats and you had to debuff yourself to debuff your opponent. Very situational.

Not really,supports generally build it,and they don't get to have many items,I think they added an upgrade because they intend to give supports more gold,though I'm not clear as to how that's gonna happen.

Compare those to Last Whisper in LoL. It only provides 40 AD which granted isn't really good compared to other AD items but the armor penetration is much better than the Desolator's AND it doesn't prevent you from using on-hit effects, namely lifesteal. This means that in DotA 2, Desolator is a nice item built by gankers who go for supports while in LoL, Last Whisper is built by every single marksman as a standard part of their build and by many other AD champions who scale better with it than Black Cleaver. And let's not even gets started about Black Cleaver.

As I've said,lw is in fact used to counter armor,it just so happens tanks eventually happen to stack it by lategame,so that's when it is built.

Depends. If you're using it to kill carries, it's only useful early on. Using it against carries in late game unless you're a support who runs away and lets your team deal with it isn't such a good idea. Remains useful if you use it to kill supports.

Not all carries are agility carries,but well yes,you can also use it to kill supports.

Black Cleaver could be another example. Either way, I used it as a good example because even though it's almost always built late game, the fact of the matter is that it's built 95% of the time if the game reaches that point. This is what I feel is a "bad counter". This means either armor is so strong that you have no choice but to build Last Whisper or that despite supposedly being a "niche" items, Last Whisper is so strong that it goes into every build.

Last whisper is there indeed because "armor is too strong without it",but it is also there to promote certain interactions,you've mentioned dota,now here's the thing about dota(alongside a whole bunch of other things which aren't relevant to this discussion),support there is fucking toxic(no,I'm sorry,nothing to discuss,the carry builds bkbs and gets tanky with his core build,mid laners and offlaners get some combinations of more cc/insane mobility/more damage/more tankiness,you are just outkitted and outnumbered(as in stats),it's idiotic) and part of the reason is the lack of %pen in that game,carries(and not carries) their damage scales against you just as well as against anyone else,which just results in instadeletion while them being more tanky,more mobile,and cc resistant.

Black cleaver is the item for "well they have way too much armor",lastwhisper is to make adcs more effective against bruisers/tanks without making them retarded against squshies.

Let's compare it to void staff: because of the way the game functions, people are far less likely to stack MR. Building Void Staff actually becomes a decision: "Are these people stacking MR? All right, I should build Void Staff, but then I'm giving up on survivability/more damage. No? Hmm, maybe this other item would be better then. Wait, four of them have no MR but this one guy has a Spirit Visage, Merc Treads and a Banshee's Veil. Do I want to sacrifice damage to the rest of his team to deal with him or can I ignore him and kill his team more efficiently?"

Hate to break it to you,but void staff is pretty much as core as lastwhisper is,you often get it later,but it's definitely core on the vast majority of mages.

I'm saying going for a counter should not be the "go-to" option. There should be some thought involved. Let's take QSS/Mercurial Scimitar against Malzahar. It's almost guaranteed AD characters will build them if Malzahar is on the opposing team. I think that's bad design. They don't have to take anything else into account, it's "Malz is there, build QSS/Scimitar". Instead, they should have to ask themselves what they give up to get that. They should be wondering if it's worth it just to counter Malzahar. And maybe they should be thinking "Well, they have two mages so the MR is good" or "I can also use it against the Warwick" and what not.

Not really. Any item that is meant to be particularly effective against something will generally find itself in a spot where "well they have champion x,so I'm definitely getting this",but carries give up quite a lot of damage for qss,so there is definitely a tradeoff,so sooner or later the adc will get qss against malz,but depending on team comp/how the game is going,it can very easily be later,as in,later than the duration of the game.

I was jesting.

You realize where you are right? Besides,the notion of buffing malz isn't even that stupid,I mean le blanc is allowed to be strong,why shouldn't malz?

AkesgerothMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Armor shred?

I meant in actual stats.

I don't know anymore,they keep changing those,are you sure that is true for this patch? I just don't play carries much so I don't particularly follow these anymore.

Yeah. In fact, it was so bad that they buffed the armor shred on it because almost no one but supports were picking it up for late game.

Not really,supports generally build it,and they don't get to have many items,I think they added an upgrade because they intend to give supports more gold,though I'm not clear as to how that's gonna happen.

Actually, supports usually don't have the gold for Medallion early on. When they do build it it's either late or for a kill lane. And no, the upgrade was added because almost no one was building Medallion except Bounty Hunter and Riki.

As I've said,lw is in fact used to counter armor,it just so happens tanks eventually happen to stack it by lategame,so that's when it is built.

Exactly. But in DotA 2, the odds of you building armor penetration to counter armor building are low.

Not all carries are agility carries,but well yes,you can also use it to kill supports.

Those which aren't agility carries are almost all strength carries and Assault Cuirass, which provides attack speed and armor, is almost mandatory on them.

Last whisper is there indeed because "armor is too strong without it",but it is also there to promote certain interactions,you've mentioned dota,now here's the thing about dota(alongside a whole bunch of other things which aren't relevant to this discussion),support there is fucking toxic(no,I'm sorry,nothing to discuss,the carry builds bkbs and gets tanky with his core build,mid laners and offlaners get some combinations of more cc/insane mobility/more damage/more tankiness,you are just outkitted and outnumbered(as in stats),it's idiotic) and part of the reason is the lack of %pen in that game,carries(and not carries) their damage scales against you just as well as against anyone else,which just results in instadeletion while them being more tanky,more mobile,and cc resistant.

Just so you know, I am not holding DotA 2 itself as an example of "counters done right". I just thought the medallion of courage was a good example.

Black cleaver is the item for "well they have way too much armor",lastwhisper is to make adcs more effective against bruisers/tanks without making them retarded against squshies.

Not really. Black Cleaver gives you damage, it gives you health, it gives you cooldown reduction, it gives you movement speed on attacks AND it gives you the armor shred. It's too good if you ask me.

Hate to break it to you,but void staff is pretty much as core as lastwhisper is,you often get it later,but it's definitely core on the vast majority of mages.

It was. People are building MR far less often nowadays however.

Not really. Any item that is meant to be particularly effective against something will generally find itself in a spot where "well they have x champion,so I'm definitely getting this",but carries give up quite a lot of damage for qss,so there is definetly a tradeoff,so sooner or later the adc will get qss against malz,but depending on team comp/how the game is going,it can very easily be later,as in,later than the duration of the game.

Except I think they're not giving up enough. Mercurial shuts down Malz hard, really hard. I think it was better when QSS couldn't be upgraded.

manbearswineMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I meant in actual stats.

armor shred is a stat...

Yeah. In fact, it was so bad that they buffed the armor shred on it because almost no one but supports were picking it up for late game.

Well obviously,it's a 1k gold item which takes an entire slot.

Actually, supports usually don't have the gold for Medallion early on. When they do build it it's either late or for a kill lane. And no, the upgrade was added because almost no one was building Medallion except Bounty Hunter and Riki.

lycan,bounty hunter,venge,alch(support) basically all built it as core.

Exactly. But in DotA 2, the odds of you building armor penetration to counter armor building are low.

flat armor pen doesn't counter armor building,it counters NOT building armor,%pen is for armor stacking,which dota doesn't exactly have(well,there is cleave)

Those which aren't agility carries are almost all strength carries and Assault Cuirass, which provides attack speed and armor, is almost mandatory on them.

Even with it flat armor shred remains effective against them,and they also don't get the item very early.

Just so you know, I am not holding DotA 2 itself as an example of "counters done right". I just thought the medallion of courage was a good example.

Well so is qss.

Not really. Black Cleaver gives you damage, it gives you health, it gives you cooldown reduction, it gives you movement speed on attacks AND it gives you the armor shred. It's too good if you ask me.

Well if you are arguing that it is op now,I'm not sure,but these stats don't work too well on adc(health isn't great on them,and for most neither is cdr,if they are getting it as core the item is definitely broken,but I don't think they are),same goes for ad assassins,bruisers in this tank meta,maybe,I'm not sure.

It was. People are building MR far less often nowadays however.

Just check any competitive or solo q game,it still is. Note that some of the stranger casters(like vlad who scales with hp/spell vamp,kass who scales with mana,and chog who well,it's not clear what mid chog is) might avoid it,or get it very late,but that's cause they scale differently than most mages and build differently due to that,things like kogmaw,cass,or idk what standard mages are played right now still build it as core.

Except I think they're not giving up enough. Mercurial shuts down Malz hard, really hard. I think it was better when QSS couldn't be upgraded.

qss means 1.5k gold so that a malz won't be able to ult you,that seems to me like a fair trade.

HaloJun 1, 20151 votes

Ill just clean some of this up regarding dota2.

Armor shred is not a stat in dota2. Its a debuff. The item have a UAM that applies a debuff to the target.
No one buy desolator as the only thing it gives u is dmg (armor shred effectively increases your damage) and allot of heroes need other stats early-midgame.
Its only really good on splitpushers as the debuff works on towers and or heroes who have armor debuff of its own (templar assasin) and or heroes who dont need other stats early (clinkz)
The item he said they buffed was desolator not medallion. Desolator is a 3.5k gold item.
Lycan is not a support but builds really weird stuff. BH is not a support but one who focuses on shutting down people early (also you do not ever build medallion on him). Venge is a support but you do not build it on her as core. Alch does but u dont play him support + he have no problem faming it cuz of his passive. The only one who builds it as core is lycan.

And holy shit u guys do not know how to use commas.

manbearswineJun 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ill just clean some of this up regarding dota2.

Armor shred is not a stat in dota2. Its a debuff. The item have a UAM that applies a debuff to the target.

Pretty much the same thing.

No one buy desolator as the only thing it gives u is dmg (armor shred effectively increases your damage) and allot of heroes need other stats early-midgame.

Weaver also builds it on occasion,ranged carries have a tendency to buy it in general.

Its only really good on splitpushers as the debuff works on towers and or heroes who have armor debuff of its own (templar assasin) and or heroes who dont need other stats early (clinkz)

So a bunch of heroes...

The item he said they buffed was desolator not medallion. Desolator is a 3.5k gold item.

How would a support be able to afford a 3.5k gold item,this doesn't make it more sensible.

Lycan is not a support but builds really weird stuff. BH is not a support but one who focuses on shutting down people early (also you do not ever build medallion on him). Venge is a support but you do not build it on her as core. Alch does but u dont play him support + he have no problem faming it cuz of his passive. The only one who builds it as core is lycan.

Alch is played as support occasionally(including competitive),and venge does build it as core(or at least used to).

And holy shit u guys do not know how to use commas.

Commas are hard.

HaloJun 1, 20151 votes

Pretty much the same thing.

Not even close

Weaver also builds it on occasion,ranged carries have a tendency to buy it in general.

Weaver have natural armor shred and i said that those who had natural armor shred usualy buit it too.

So a bunch of heroes...

why did u even write that? Its like 7

How would a support be able to afford a 3.5k gold item,this doesn't make it more sensible. 3.5k gold is nothing compared to other items. Especialy lategame for a support.

Alch is played as support occasionally(including competitive),and venge does build it as core(or at least used to).

Alch is not played support like at all. Last time that happend was like 1 or 2 years ago. Venge supp does not build it as of now.

manbearswineJun 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not even close

the difference between a uam and a stat isn't a big one,mostly just some limitations.

Weaver have natural armor shred and i said that those who had natural armor shred usualy buit it too.

why did u even write that? Its like 7

Do we need to go over the entire hero pool? dazzle also builds(yes cause armor shred) for example

3.5k gold is nothing compared to other items. Especialy lategame for a support.

Supports are too busy with consumables that a 3.5k item is just something they rarely reach,doesn't matter if it's lategame.

Alch is not played support like at all. Last time that happend was like 1 or 2 years ago.

Nah I've seen it in competitive not too long ago,can't remember when though.

Venge supp does not build it as of now.

Did axe happen? seems strange.

HaloJun 1, 20151 votes

wtf is up with you. Half of your "arguements" arent even arguments but snide shit that is supose to sound cool. You are not pleasent to discuss anything with.

Everytime someone proves you wrong in any wya you just answer with some other bullshit.

Looking through your comment history. You have almost never ANY good arguemnts and always make shtty counter arguements. Reserch and find facts please.

Armor shred is not a stat. That is a fact.

Lategame supports (or even midgame) does not only buy consumemables. thats a fact.

He have been played as support ONCE in like a year. YOU DONT DO IT ANYMORE. Since these nerfs alchemist support is a mere cirklejerk and is is considerd really bad. Reduced night vision from 1400 to 800. Reduced maximum brew duration from 7 to 5.5. Max power is still reached after 5 seconds. No longer continues to get stronger while it is in the air. Chemical Rage No longer provides 250/500/750 bonus health. Increased health regen from 15/30/60 to 50/75/100. Reduced Chemical Rage health bonus from 300/600/900 to 250/500/750.

If she only builds it vs axe it is not considerd a god damm core. You do not build it as a core. And even vs or with axe it isnt that good because his taunt gives him 40 fucking armor. -10 is nothing.

at level 16 with a level 4 taunt you get 46 armor (without items) wich is 73% dmg reduction.

with 36 armor its 68%. 5% diffrence is nothing. The way to counter axe is to wait dammit.

manbearswineJun 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

wtf is up with you. Half of your "arguements" arent even arguments but snide shit that is supose to sound cool.

That's just what you claim them to be.

You are not pleasent to discuss anything with.

neither are you.

Everytime someone proves you wrong in any wya you just answer with some other bullshit.

You aren't the one to decide when I am proven wrong,especially when you just randomly claim I was proven wrong,without giving anything to even imply that.

Looking through your comment history. You have almost never ANY good arguemnts and always make shtty counter arguements. Reserch and find facts please.

That's what you claim them to be,you are also wrong.

Armor shred is not a stat. That is a fact.

Fact is everything is a stat,the point was the difference between armor shred and say crit chance isn't something very notable,in contrast to say blink dagger,which although it gives an active(which is a stat) is VERY different from things like lifesteal,armor,hp and armor shred.

Lategame supports (or even midgame) does not only buy consumemables. thats a fact.

Depends on how the game goes,position 5s often have very close to nothing,and 3.5k gold is very far from their reach,positions 4 might get it,but I can't think of any position 4 which will buy desolator,venge for example can buy it if she somehow does very well,but that's unlikely.

He have been played as support ONCE in like a year. YOU DONT DO IT ANYMORE.

He got a solid amount of picks in ti 4(which is the last tournament i can find decent stats on) just because the hero fell out of meta doesn't mean he is worthless trash unworthy of mention,and doesn't mean you MUST PLAY ONLY COMPETITIVE PICKS.

Since these nerfs alchemist support is a mere cirklejerk and is is considerd really bad. Reduced night vision from 1400 to 800. Reduced maximum brew duration from 7 to 5.5. Max power is still reached after 5 seconds. No longer continues to get stronger while it is in the air. Chemical Rage No longer provides 250/500/750 bonus health. Increased health regen from 15/30/60 to 50/75/100. Reduced Chemical Rage health bonus from 300/600/900 to 250/500/750.

He pretty much only got buffed since ti4,this was before it.

If she only builds it vs axe it is not considerd a god damm core. You do not build it as a core. And even vs or with axe it isnt that good because his taunt gives him 40 fucking armor. -10 is nothing.

IT WAS A JOKE what happened- axe happened. jesus

now let's see what you are worth when you are proven wrong with actual facts.

HaloJun 2, 20151 votes

Im just going to go throug these slowly.

1# There are 3 main stats. They are called Stength, Agility and inteligence as stated here These 3 main stats alse convert in to other speparet stats Agi gives you Attackspeed, armor Int gives you mana and mana regen Streght gives you Hp and Hpregen. If one of these are your main atribute/stat they also give you bonus attack damage. You also have baise stat called magic resist.

2# Desolator puts a debuff on the target and this debuff can be pruged with things such as diffusal blade. Calling it a stat would be like calling the slow effect of frozen mallet a stat wich isnt a stat but a passive.

Successive attacks with Desolator do not stack the debuff, but refresh the duration instead.

It also doesnt stack unlike crit. The more daedaluses you buy the higher critchance you get. In dota there is nothing called armor penetration. Its a mere debuff.

3# i dont reallt know when you played dota last time but since the most recent patch they have changed the amount of gold you get from assists.

Reduced the direct hero last hit bounty by 100 and redistributed that gold into AoE gold (in ratio of 100/75/40/25/20 for 1/2/3/4/5 heroes)[?]

AoE Bonus Gold is now distributed based on the relative net worth amongst the heroes involved in killing the hero by +/- 25%

Example: If 3 heroes kill an enemy hero, and the extra aoe gold bounty would normally be 200 gold for each player, it is instead 200+25% for the poorest hero 200 for the middle and 200-25% for the richest.

Quotes from dota2 official patch notes.

this made supprots get allot more gold than before making them quite wealthy if the game goes ok. I mean no one have allot of gold if the game goes to shit so that kinda speaks of itself and obviusly a position 5 doesnt buy deso they buy glimmer.

While its rare to see a desolator as it is considerd a situational item for almost everyone buying it (with a few exceptions) it is possible.

In patch 6.78 alchesmist winrate was 52% this is a quite good number. The only problem was that he crushed everything with the right team comp. In patch 6.79 his winrate dopped about 8% down to 44% and after another nerf and a buffs to other heroes etc his winrate dropped to a whopping 39%.

He is the hero in dota who have during the longest period of time been at a winrate under 40%. In high skill games his

Whats even worse is that in very high skill ranked games hes got a 37% winrate. In high skill ranked his winrate is 38%

He is basically The elise of dota2. Almost everyone can agree on the fact that elise is in trash tier right now and have been for a while. Having a 40% winrate is just a bad sign and saying that elise is "good" or "hard to play" is a straight up lie as she is just considered really bad right now not just because of the meta.

And i know winrate isnt everything so lets look at his amazing 1.76 KDA in all skill ranges. The only carry having worse than him is meepo with 1.74

Its a bit better at verry high skill at 1.91

Alchemist avrage stats per games are 4.5/8.1/9.8 Meepos avrage stats are 8/8.7/7.2

What im pointing at is that he is a carry with really bad a average stats and really bad avrage winrate in every skillrange. He is just bad right now as anything he does someone else can do better (except for getting gold probably).

He have been reciving a total of 2 buffs and minor ones that really doesn't adress his real problems.

He received a minor buff to his gold income and then a new aghanims (wich didnt really help alchemist) and a buff to is gold income once again.

The problem with his is also that he gets item fast but even when he is 6 slotted he still isnt an all that good carry. There are much more viable picks. His laning phase is quite bad and his jungling is just horrible early on.

Proven wrong with actual facts

Fact is everything is a stat,the point was the difference between armor shred and say crit chance isn't something very notable,in contrast to say blink dagger,which although it gives an active(which is a stat) is VERY different from things like lifesteal,armor,hp and armor shred.

"Facts"

Active=stat

"Facts"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/statistics

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/statistic

manbearswineJun 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Im just going to go throug these slowly.

You're just making yourself looking dumber with this nonsense.

1# There are 3 main stats. They are called Stength, Agility and inteligence as stated here

Yeah,main stats,I didn't call it a "main stat",I called it a stat.

These 3 main stats alse convert in to other speparet stats Agi gives you Attackspeed, armor Int gives you mana and mana regen Streght gives you Hp and Hpregen. If one of these are your main atribute/stat they also give you bonus attack damage. You also have baise stat called magic resist.

No,you are just aribitarly deciding what is a stat and what isn't,to make things worse,you forget that you have things which boost these stats directly,without going through the main stats,like +armor,or like armor shred.

2# Desolator puts a debuff on the target and this debuff can be pruged with things such as diffusal blade. Calling it a stat would be like calling the slow effect of frozen mallet a stat wich isnt a stat but a passive.

So you remove it and then it's immediately reapplied on the next auto,amazing difference.

It also doesnt stack unlike crit. The more daedaluses you buy the higher critchance you get. In dota there is nothing called armor penetration. Its a mere debuff.

Oh but these stack diminishingly,unlike armor(or the main stats) which just stack additively,though an argument can be made that even armor doesn't stack additively,so yeah,way of stacking isn't what makes a stat a stat.

3# i dont reallt know when you played dota last time but since the most recent patch they have changed the amount of gold you get from assists.

I've read the changes,and played the game enough to highly doubt they will make any notable change to anything,either you give supports a consistent,reliable(not to be confused with reliable gold) source of gold,or I just don't see that problem going away.

this made supprots get allot more gold than before making them quite wealthy if the game goes ok. I mean no one have allot of gold if the game goes to shit so that kinda speaks of itself and obviusly a position 5 doesnt buy deso they buy glimmer.

Just randomly open any "very high skill" game on dota buff,you can clearly see that actual position 5's are still left with nothing/close to nothing,this change was probably aimed at lower levels of play,where people throw kills around repeatedly on both sides,same as the previous cumback mechanics,this is mostly stupid and will achieve little out of the lower levels of play.

In patch 6.78 alchesmist winrate was 52% this is a quite good number. The only problem was that he crushed everything with the right team comp. In patch 6.79 his winrate dopped about 8% down to 44% and after another nerf and a buffs to other heroes etc his winrate dropped to a whopping 39%.

do not start with these idiotic winrates argument,they are worthless as is in lol,even more meaningless in dota,are we really going to make an argument about a number which claims earth spirit to be severely underpowered?

He is basically The elise of dota2. Almost everyone can agree on the fact that elise is in trash tier right now and have been for a while.

I disagree with that,she's bad,but not THAT bad,in fact i'd consider her better than a lot of champions who some of the winrate sheep would consider good.(for example I would rather have a competent elise player than a competent ashe player(PRE REWORK))

Having a 40% winrate is just a bad sign and saying that elise is "good" or "hard to play" is a straight up lie as she is just considered really bad right now not just because of the meta.

Tell that to earth spirit,elise actually has a higher winrate than him.(the point here isn't that elise is as strong as earth spirit,she very much isn't,but just how worthless the winrate argument is)

And i know winrate isnt everything so lets look at his amazing 1.76 KDA in all skill ranges. The only carry having worse than him is meepo with 1.74

Eh? oracle,Io,chen,terrorblade,treant,drow,rubick(looking at this month)

Its a bit better at verry high skill at 1.91

Well very high skill isn't on dotabuff,and I forgot where they placed it,I also don't care too much for the winrate argument,so w/e.

What im pointing at is that he is a carry with really bad a average stats and really bad avrage winrate in every skillrange. He is just bad right now as anything he does someone else can do better (except for getting gold probably).

So don't play him as a carry.

He have been reciving a total of 2 buffs and minor ones that really doesn't adress his real problems.

The point was: even prior to the buffs he actually saw a solid amount of competitive play.

"Facts"

Active=stat

"Facts"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/statistics

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/statistic

You just randomly googled statistics,nothing here actually says "not actives,only armor",it's just the regular

A numerical piece of information. 2. A calculated numerical value (such as the sample mean) that characterizes some aspect of a sample set of data, and that is often meant to estimate the true value of a corresponding parameter (such as the population mean) in an underlying population. 3. One viewed solely as a piece of statistical or numerical information:

And since we are dealing with a computer game,and everything stored on computers is represented by a number,as I've said: "EVERYTHING IS A STAT",yes,including actives,ofc that's a silly way to refer to them,so generally things with a very simple static effect I refer to as stats(like armor,or armor shred),whereas more complex things(like blink) I don't refer to as such.

HaloJun 2, 20151 votes

i give up

you are the most stubborn person i have ever met. (you response would probably go something like "so are you")

You have like 50 hours on dota2 and you dont even now what a god damm fact is.

of the things ive researched and found reliebe sources to you have just responded with a simple

"So you remove it and then it's immediately reapplied on the next auto,amazing difference."

like what is that.

"No,you are just aribitarly deciding what is a stat and what isn't,to make things worse,you forget that you have things which boost these stats directly,without going through the main stats,like +armor,or like armor shred."

wtf is this. I stated that agi, streght and int was the basic stats that was dsitrubted in to other stats. Not to speak of the fact that armor reducton is a debuff in dota. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS LOL. it is like a slow but istead of taking away movementspeed it takes away armor. Desolator is a frozen mallet but instead of adding slow it adds an armor debuff. It even states it on the god damm wiki (that it was a debuff(i hope u know the definition of debuff))

"I've read the changes,and played the game enough to highly doubt they will make any notable change to anything,either you give supports a consistent,reliable(not to be confused with reliable gold) source of gold,or I just don't see that problem going away."

wtf is this. This is only your opinion. Tho gold change made a huge chanhe to the game and made the supports significantly richer.

And since we are dealing with a computer game,and everything stored on computers is represented by a number,as I've said: "EVERYTHING IS A STAT",yes,including actives,ofc that's a silly way to refer to them,so generally things with a very simple static effect I refer to as stats(like armor,or armor shred),whereas more complex things(like blink) I don't refer to as such.

Thats and argument i would have made in middle school. Like seriously. Not to speak of the fact that you literaly stated in you last post and i quote

it gives an active(which is a stat) is VERY different from things like lifesteal,armor,hp and armor shred.

I brought facts you brought opinions.

fck this. I cant argue with you. You havent brought up a single good argument and im sure that your response to this is either going to be none or you are going to leave dumb comments and statemnt while quoting what i have already said.

I dont get you man.

manbearswineJun 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

i give up

you are the most stubborn person i have ever met. (you response would probably go something like "so are you")

Well,at least you are aware of your problem.

You have like 50 hours on dota2 and you dont even now what a god damm fact is.

more like a thousand,try again.

of the things ive researched and found reliebe sources to you

No,you haven't,not a single one.

"So you remove it and then it's immediately reapplied on the next auto,amazing difference."

like what is that.

"No,you are just aribitarly deciding what is a stat and what isn't,to make things worse,you forget that you have things which boost these stats directly,without going through the main stats,like +armor,or like armor shred."

Because generally there are stats,and effects,stats are generally just something numerical to somewhat(damage immunity I don't see as much of a stat) modify damage,whereas everything not a stat affects gameplay in a much less straight forward way,that's why I called lifesteal,armor pen(shred depends on who builds it),hp/etc stats,whereas slows/ms boosts/cc/mobility not stats,everything on a computer is a stat,but it doesn't make sense to refer things as such,so things which their effect is static,and they pretty much do the same thing regardless of the situation(like crit chance,well,aside from rng),in contrast to a slow,whose effectiveness varies a lot depending on the scenario.

wtf is this. I stated that agi, streght and int was the basic stats that was dsitrubted in to other stats. Not to speak of the fact that armor reducton is a debuff in dota. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS LOL. it is like a slow but istead of taking away movementspeed it takes away armor. Desolator is a frozen mallet but instead of adding slow it adds an armor debuff. It even states it on the god damm wiki (that it was a debuff(i hope u know the definition of debuff))

No,it isn't,as I've said,the effectiveness of slows varies much more than that of armor shred,which basically only depends on the opponents armor(depending on who get's it,if it's the support,it is notably different)

wtf is this. This is only your opinion. Tho gold change made a huge chanhe to the game and made the supports significantly richer.

As I've said,just open any high ranked game on dotabuff at random,you will see that(unless hyper fed,or his team is stomping hard) the pos 5(defined by cs) is still piss poor. So no,not my opinion,instead a fact that anyone with his head outside of his ass can see.

Thats and argument i would have made in middle school. Like seriously. Not to speak of the fact that you literaly stated in you last post and i quote

Yes,good excuse,when proven wrong "I would've said this in middle school",well then,you should go back to it then.

I brought facts you brought opinions.

No,the nonsense you speak of is far from fact,you just call your (wrong)opinions facts.

fck this. I cant argue with you. You havent brought up a single good argument and im sure that your response to this is either going to be none or you are going to leave dumb comments and statemnt while quoting what i have already said.

You should read your own posts man,it's like mine,just instead of brining facts you bring opinions disguised as facts and call facts opinions.

I dont get you man.

That tends to happen when you're in denial.

blueberrypancakeMay 31, 20151 votes

Cough* RTS Cough*

I'm sorry but personally do believe this is a good design philosophy as a MOBA is an RTS and what keeps an RTS like SC2 balanced is cyclical balance.

Now without armor pen, if you have a an 2 damage source comp, the tanks on the enemy team will literally take no damage if it weren't for penetration.

Now I do agree that LW and VS are very strong and very efficient for their cost late game and a staples on most standard mages like Orianna and Heimer and LW is almost always the third item an ADC buys (maybe blue Ezreal is the only exception but then again you need to be far ahead in order to do that)

Regardless, I think you made a very convincing post

HellreaverMay 31, 20151 votes

The thing I severely dislike is even when using this misguided balance philosophy, Riot is still inconsistent about it. Why does making CC useless for 6 seconds on Olaf cost him a huge portion of his survivability and his ultimate slot when obsoleting a huge amount of champions on Kalista is a PASSIVE ability? Does Riot truly believe that Kalista has less counterplay than Olaf ?

Yosuke ApperuMay 31, 20151 votes

The only thing I have to say that doesn't have much counter play with olaf.. is dueling him 1v1 with another melee duelist.. he will kill you xD

fractalfantasiesMay 31, 20151 votes

Agreed.

This is not DoTA 2 where everything is slightly OP, but can also become trash with the right counter.

Think Medusa, OP as shit

Until she meets, Antimage

that's not really fun because either you thrash your opponents, or you are useless

KikirinoMay 31, 20151 votes

I dunno... Rock, Paper, Scissors is well balanced and has been around for ages.

AkesgerothMay 31, 20151 votes

But League of Legends is much, MUCH more complex than that.

Rabid HuskyMay 31, 20151 votes

well written good sir! now as for countering its a bit ridiculous to say its not good design since champs arnt made to counter other champs braum wasnt made to counter ez or mf but he does not out of focusing on their ults but just makeing a support all

countering of champs in this game is just what happens i fought against ekko as zed i relised with ekkos ult i cant commit i cant burst him since if he ults befor my deathmark finishes him all his health comes back now for armor pen arguments even with yomuus cleaver last whisper and other anti armor items they still will have a hard time against tanks thats why crits in the game and why it causes a circle of harmony where everyone can be stopped by this leaveing them with the ability to be strong but no unstoppable 100% of the time

if 2 people with equal skill fight eachother with each champ countering eachothers picks with a new champ the counter pick wins everyone has a counter everything has potential and thats why its not bad disign

N30NP4NDAMay 31, 20151 votes

your post is too confusing, it never gets to the point.

lDontLiftIcarryMay 31, 20151 votes

counterplay is not hard counter you're confused.

ZirzonJun 1, 20151 votes

Yorick walks into a bar...

There is no counter.

Only A SoldierJun 1, 20151 votes

Wow this is a very nice post. By the title I was expecting someone ranting about how Riot's champion design sucks and how they're ruining the game, but this was refreshing to read. What this does get me thinking about is how Riot should go about doing things. What kind of abilities should have counter play added? If so, what kind of counter play? Should that ability be made into a skillshot? Maybe add more of a cooldown? This really is quite a complex game when you think about it.

48983507DEL1Jun 1, 20151 votes

DoTA2 also has champions, wait, I mean heros that specifically counter certain other heros to much greater degrees than LoL, although comparable to Garen vs Riven. Of course, it does add to the balance of the game, just in a completely different fashion.

FantasySniperJun 1, 20151 votes

I understand where you're coming from on this, but few "Reduce to 0" mechanics exist. The only case where they could be considered unhealthy is probably Zhonya's because it makes inherent vulnerability and burst - the glass cannon archetype - irrelevant on both ends.

The average counter is only a simple reduction or a less accessible mechanic that takes advantage of the nature of another to make it less effective. Calling them "Makes X useless" is too extreme of a description.

The only thing I agree with here is point 3.

SaiannaJun 1, 20151 votes

Yasuo's Wind Wall = counter to everything that's deemed ranged. Greatest "f** u and your skillshot/AAs" ever.

BeatzBoyFTWJun 1, 20151 votes

1 HP Yasuo puts up wall, gets killed by Thresh Velkoz AA

Well, I guess not "every" projectile that deemed range :p

SaiannaJun 1, 20151 votes

Still it's BS that Yasuos wall can block every rangd ultimate. Noone can deny it

BeatzBoyFTWJun 1, 20151 votes

Braum does it better.

SaiannaJun 1, 20151 votes

Well at least braum uses his own body = getting damaged. + it's rather small compared to maxed wind wall

BeatzBoyFTWJun 1, 20151 votes

So do you mean like:

Goku counters Vegeta............

............and then Vegeta sends Frieza to counter Goku

And then Goku turns Super Saiyan 1 to counter Frieza............

............and then Frieza sends Cell to counter SSJ1 Goku (Is it Saiyan or Saiyajin??)

And then SSJ1 Goku transform into SSJ2 to counter Cell............

............and then Cell sends Buu to counter SSJ2 Goku

And then SSJ2 Goku transform into SSJ3 to counter Buu............

Something liek dis?

DBZ actual storyline does not apply

CatastropJun 1, 20151 votes

I don't think Malzahar needs a buff. Well no, maybe buff his Voidlings a bit, aside from that, he doesn't need much. But yeah, I agree with what you said.

SouL1essJun 1, 20151 votes

Stop with the defensive itemization vs. penetration argument...

If defensive itemization wasn't so powerful, percentage resistance penetration won't be necessary.

But since defensive itemization is that good (and tanks with percentage health damage are the best snowball champions in the game), resistance penetration is necessary to keep this game functional.