An advertisement for Support

Hyrum Graff·Nov 3, 2016·20 votes·1,821 views

You -- yes you reading this post -- should try out SUPPORT!

You'll get the chance to be 2-5 levels behind most of the players in the game, on 2/3 of their budget, with 5050 gold of mandatory purchases before you can choose what to build.. ..and in exchange you'll get to help your allies make some really sweet plays!

Riot, I love playing support, but there is some baseline amount of agency I need in a normal game to make the role worth playing, and it just ain't there right now.

Edit since people weren't noticing the link: Here's why I love playing support: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/me7PRvfg-an-advertisement-for-support?comment=0000

82 Comments

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 201612 votes

Supporting is like directing an artillery barrage.

If you pick the right target and time, you blow the enemy to smithereens. Sure, you didn't actually fire the weapon, but that doesn't matter. People don't praise the brilliance of artillery operators, they praise the brilliance of the general.

As someone who's played quite a bit of every role, there is nothing so intensely invigorating as playing support, if you're on the same page as your adc. You land your CC on the right target, call down the artillery, and the target blows up. You may not have done the right-clicking, but you were the reason that damage happened.

reaperteaserNov 3, 20164 votes

warding really helps with that target pick just fyi

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20163 votes

{quoted}

warding really helps with that target pick just fyi

Implying I don't ward? I'm confused.

reaperteaserNov 3, 20164 votes

not directed towards you, i just keep running into supports who buy sightstone and never use it

Awesomedude8888Nov 5, 20161 votes

Hey, at least they bought a sightstone.

Baby GhoulNov 3, 201612 votes

They need to fix XP issues on support before anything else.

Most people will not play support simply because it sucks being 2-3 levels behind a 0/4/0 Sion top with mediocre farm when you're 0/0/7 and doing amazing. It makes carrying your game even more difficult than it already was.

I made it to Gold again as a support main this year, and I don't mind having to stretch my coin. I wish I didn't have to. It's sucky that I have the smallest income with must-buy items like Sightstone, but I can work with it. What really makes me annoyed is the XP issues. Just start with that Riot, please.

Another thing I want them to add is more detailed stats that show a support's contribution post game. I want to see how much damage I buffed through spells and items and how much damage I absorbed through shields for instance. This would be so helpful for people who want to know what they should work on for next game as well.

Give us those two things Riot, or at least try to work towards them! It doesn't look like we will get a support update anytime soon, but I want them to to start making minor changes.

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baby Ghoul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=me7PRvfg,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-03T03:38:39.442+0000)

They need to fix XP issues on support before anything else.

Most people will not play support simply because it sucks being 2-3 levels behind a 0/4/0 Sion top with mediocre farm when you're 0/0/7 and doing amazing. It makes carrying your game even more difficult than it already was.

I made it to Gold again as a support main this year, and I don't mind having to stretch my coin. I wish I didn't have to. It's sucky that I have the smallest income with must-buy items like Sightstone, but I can work with it. What really makes me annoyed is the XP issues. Just start with that Riot, please.

Another thing I want them to add is more detailed stats that show a support's contribution post game. I want to see how much damage I buffed through spells and items and how much damage I absorbed through shields for instance. This would be so helpful for people who want to know what they should work on for next game as well.

Give us those two things Riot, or at least try to work towards them! It doesn't look like we will get a support update anytime soon, but I want them to to start making minor changes.

100% agreed. I was going towards plat as mid/supp (which really means supp/supp/occasionally mid), but switched to mid/adc even though my adc mechanics are shit, just because at least then I can have some impact on wave control and objective focus.

Baby GhoulNov 3, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=me7PRvfg,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-11-03T03:41:11.256+0000)

100% agreed. I was going towards plat as mid/supp (which really means supp/supp/occasionally mid), but switched to mid/adc even though my adc mechanics are shit, just because at least then I can have some impact on wave control and objective focus.

Same. I only got mid 3 or 4 times out of hundreds of games. Luckily I played Annie and she has a good laning phase and I'm always super cautious because I am a support main. I didn't always win lane, but I never lost it either.

I wonder how other supports cope with it. I haven't consistently played mid in months. The queue system is so awkward for anyone that picks support.

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baby Ghoul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=me7PRvfg,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-11-03T03:50:15.073+0000)

Same. I only got mid 3 or 4 times out of hundreds of games. Luckily I played Annie and she has a good laning phase and I'm always super cautious because I am a support main. I didn't always win lane, but I never lost it either.

I wonder how other supports cope with it. I haven't consistently played mid in months. The queue system is so awkward for anyone that picks support.

I think most people either decide to play only support or they stop playing support. Or they alternate and just choose when they're in the mood to play support or not.

DeathBurstNov 4, 20161 votes

Can confirm, that's what I did. Played Mostly Top/Sup or Top/Jung, depending on my mood.

Hyrum GraffNov 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Can confirm, that's what I did. Played Mostly Top/Sup or Top/Jung, depending on my mood.

The annoying thing is, everyone else has to learn two roles to play ranked; supports need to learn either one (support) or three (support, and the 2 others they queue for when they don't want to support).

DeathBurstNov 4, 20161 votes

That's technically true, but I don't feel concerned. I was already playing 3.5 roles in Season 5, often filling to let others get their good roles. That's still an improvement from my point of view ^^'

On the other hand, my skill of being more flexible than the average player is now lost and doesn't help me climb anymore, so... You win some, you lose some, that's the game ;s

Hyrum GraffNov 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That's technically true, but I don't feel concerned. I was already playing 3.5 roles in Season 5, often filling to let others get their good roles. That's still an improvement from my point of view ^^'

On the other hand, my skill of being more flexible than the average player is now lost and doesn't help me climb anymore, so... You win some, you lose some, that's the game ;s

Agreed. I love the new champ select but I also miss being able to climb by acting as a mediator to help everyone get roles they're comfortable on.

DeathBurstNov 4, 20163 votes

Fully agree about the stat thing. A bit of e-penis measuring won't hurt the appeal of the role, on top of everything else you mentioned.

WolfessNov 3, 20165 votes

the thing about supports is

proving that even with having to buy these mandatory purchases and being behind in levels and gold.

you can STILL outplay the enemy and shove your foot up their ass.

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

the thing about supports is

proving that even with having to buy these mandatory purchases and being behind in levels and gold.

you can STILL outplay the enemy and shove your foot up their ass.

Sure, and supports are balanced around being somewhat weaker than the rest of the team... but there is some baseline amount of gold and especially XP that you need to be effective in League of Legends. When the enemy mid is trying to get your adc, sneezes on you in the process, and you die because you're 3 levels behind... I don't know anybody who enjoys that.

WolfessNov 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=me7PRvfg,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-11-03T23:05:12.630+0000)

Sure, and supports are balanced around being somewhat weaker than the rest of the team... but there is some baseline amount of gold and especially XP that you need to be effective in League of Legends. When the enemy mid is trying to get your adc, sneezes on you in the process, and you die because you're 3 levels behind... I don't know anybody who enjoys that.

you can't ALWAYS walk out of a bad situation, like perhaps a 4v2 bot lane dive, but you CAN try to make the best of it, like catching the most fed enemy on your tower for the kill, or maybe two unfortunate thirsty enemies to even out a 2 for 2. the thing is though your marksman is an investment, ward, secure your area, and help feed it. the more safety and utility you can get for them, the better.

the rest comes down to actual skill and experience.

Hyrum GraffNov 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

you can't ALWAYS walk out of a bad situation, like perhaps a 4v2 bot lane dive, but you CAN try to make the best of it, like catching the most fed enemy on your tower for the kill, or maybe two unfortunate thirsty enemies to even out a 2 for 2. the thing is though your marksman is an investment, ward, secure your area, and help feed it. the more safety and utility you can get for them, the better.

I know, and I do. Just because you can make the best of a bad situation doesn't mean that it's any fun to be in a bad situation in the first place. And right now most of my games as support -- of which I am still winning more than half -- feel like a bad situation (even those where we are winning).

the rest comes down to actual skill and experience.

I'm not sure if you're implying anything here, but I'll just mention that I've been playing league since the end of S3, am high gold (with low plat mmr; I just don't grind enough to actually get there), and have spent more time playing this game than I care to admit here. Support was the first role I learned and it's still my most-played and strongest role. I've taken all types of champions into the support role, from Janna and Leona to Jinx and Nocturne (neither of which are as bad as you'd think).

There's absolutely no way to say that paragraph without coming off as full of myself, so I'm not gonna try.

6SfoolNov 3, 20165 votes

I wish the gold income items gave you experience while you are near higher level allies, kind of like the old mastery. But at least make it appreciable. Roaming supports with no waveclear have too much trouble farming levels in the midgame, because the only way to get that xp is to piggyback on a minion wave with an ally. If my adc is shoving the minion wave into the tower I would like to be able to scout in the river/jungle without sacrificing too much xp. I regularly end up 2 levels behind my allies even though I'm being a better contributor to the team than someone who stands right next to the adc all game.

The lack of gold I can handle. Somehow I still get full build in many of my games, and I'm pretty satisfied with my item sets.

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I wish the gold income items gave you experience while you are near higher level allies, kind of like the old mastery. But at least make it appreciable. Roaming supports with no waveclear have too much trouble farming levels in the midgame, because the only way to get that xp is to piggyback on a minion wave with an ally. If my adc is shoving the minion wave into the tower I would like to be able to scout in the river/jungle without sacrificing too much xp. I regularly end up 2 levels behind my allies even though I'm being a better contributor to the team than someone who stands right next to the adc all game.

The lack of gold I can handle. Somehow I still get full build in many of my games, and I'm pretty satisfied with my item sets.

I'd be game to see that added.

The only problem I see with the old support mastery is: if it's strong enough, it might be desirable to take it on more than just supports, so you can get bonus xp if one of your other lanes snowballs, which means your whole team can snowball off that one person -- it doesn't just help the team that's behind.

I think attaching the effect to an item sidesteps that problem because laners wouldn't want to invest gold into something that doesn't give as many combat stats.

Or you could attach the effect to XP for assists if you kill someone higher leveled than you, or something like that.

PureSilvrrNov 3, 20162 votes

4200 gold worth of items? Do u mean income item and sightstone?

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

4200 gold worth of items? Do u mean income item and sightstone?

Oh, I forgot income item. Make that 4700 gold (edited OP).

~~500~~ 850 Income 800 Sightstone 900 Boots 2500 Locket

PureSilvrrNov 3, 20162 votes

oh that explains it, I thought you meant fully upgraded items and I don't wanna be that really specific person, but income item is 350 and you need to add potions and pink wards

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

oh that explains it, I thought you meant fully upgraded items and I don't wanna be that really specific person, but income item is 350 and you need to add potions and pink wards

Ack, Apparently I can't math tonight. 850 for T2 support item.

MrNhbdyNov 3, 20161 votes

You buy Locket on every support?

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You buy Locket on every support?

Right now, almost every support should buy locket immediately after the other mandatory purchases (and occasionally I'll get aegis before SS). The only times when you can buy a different item first are:

On karma, because she gets SO much benefit out of CDR. But you should get it ASAP after you hit 25-35% cdr.
If you're playing against a full AD team comp (something like Irelia / Zed / Yi / Lucian / Janna). If they have even a little hybrid damage or AP tank, like Jayce, Gnar, Leona, Naut, Maokai, Malphite, etc, this doesn't apply.
If the enemy has a fed AP splitpush threat or your team has no concept of wave control, you can get banner instead.

Locket's aura (and to a lesser extent, shield) gives such strong, reliable power that anything else puts you at a significant disadvantage. Locket gives all nearby teammates 15 MR. Before penetration, that's 15% magic damage reduction, (more like 10% after all's said and done) permanently. Compare to exhaust, which reduces a champion's damage by 40%. Would you spend 2500 gold if Locket were described as "A permanent semi-exhaust on all nearby enemy AP champions"?

The problem with is that, despite Locket being blatantly OP, it's really hard to feel the impact of its power, because AP champions are balanced around the assumption that the enemy team will have one. So the scenario ends up being -- when your team has a locket, it's business as usual, and then when you don't have a locket it's HOLY DICKS HOW DID LB JUST KILL ME WITH TWO ABILITIES.

CoffeeDaveNov 4, 20161 votes

Enjoy item 3190 while you can. They're making big changes in the pre season.

Hyrum GraffNov 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Enjoy while you can. They're making big changes in the pre season.

I can't wait. I'm tired of having the spend my first 2500 gold after T2 item 1001 item 2049 item 3096 on it.

MrNhbdyNov 4, 20161 votes

Ok, so quite recently (1 or 2 months), I've been trying to use more actives to help my team. Only been playing about a year and Im bronze (I play mostly norms), I thought Locket was best suited for tank/ bruiser supports.

I only mention my elo because in my games I don't see this item being built much.

My main is Morgana so I usually have these items in my build at some point...

Frost Queens Sightstone Boots Zhonyas

The last two places I try give my self more cdr, ap, or defense depending on the situation ( usually go more cdr/ap)

Thoughts?

Hyrum GraffNov 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ok, so quite recently (1 or 2 months), I've been trying to use more actives to help my team. Only been playing about a year and Im bronze (I play mostly norms), I thought Locket was best suited for tank/ bruiser supports.

I only mention my elo because in my games I don't see this item being built much.

My main is Morgana so I usually have these items in my build at some point...

Frost Queens Sightstone Boots Zhonyas

The last two places I try give my self more cdr, ap, or defense depending on the situation ( usually go more cdr/ap)

Thoughts?

I personally really like having a lot of utility, so I try to get 45% cdr on all of my supports, and a lot of my mid laners. I also really like movement speed.

If absolutely nobody on your team is capable of carrying, I'd build this:

item 2301 item 3157 item 3060 item 3135 vs AP: item 3158 item 3001 vs AD: item 3020 item 3110

Or, if spooky ghosts are important to you,

item 2045 item 3092 item 3157 item 3060 item 3135 item 3158

The problem with these builds is that they're expensive. You're basically hoping that the other team sucks as much as yours does, and you can last long enough to get these items and be able to make an impact. So if there is anybody on your team who is capable of carrying, you're better off going for a more supportive build like this:

item 2045 item 3092 item 3190 boots: item 3117 or item 3158 if you need it for 45% cdr. Occasionally item 3009 item 3111 or item 3047 if you need in-combat MS, tenacity, or if they have many autoattackers

cdr: If they have 2+ autoattackers, item 3110 , otherwise item 3050 item 3174 item 3222 item 3157 whatever you need to finish 45% cdr, occasionally item 3152 for cheese picks or ults

Misc items that can be helpful:

item 3512 If your team is often seiging or being seiged. item 3742 If they're pretty AD-heavy and you need to be tankier to survive item 3116 If you want to go for a better late-game build, get eye instead of spooky ghosts and pick up this instead. You can throw down tormented soil and the slow will help you hit your binding.

Here's the thing, though: In the majority of games, the interesting decisions here aren't actually interesting, because the games don't go long enough.

Most games you can buy item 2049 item 3105 item 3098 , item 3158 / item 3117 and by this point the game is close to over. Maybe you get a chance to buy one more item. That's the problem I'm complaining about here.

MrNhbdyNov 4, 20161 votes

Hmmm I'll use what I can, thanks for the feedback.

Nameless VoiceNov 4, 20161 votes

Including boots is a bit strange - all other classes need to buy them too?

Hyrum GraffNov 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=me7PRvfg,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2016-11-04T17:17:20.576+0000)

Including boots is a bit strange - all other classes need to buy them too?

Just because everyone else needs to buy them too, doesn't change the fact that I need to buy them. It's still 900 gold (or more, but most supports get one of the cheap boots) that supports need to spend before they can buy an item that will actually affect their playstyle.

StephenizgodNov 3, 20162 votes

Do you like being blamed for lack of vision despite you being the only person putting down wards?

Do you like to watch your ADC miss CS, get hit by CC, and die for no reason while you sit there helplessly?

Do you like to roam to other lanes only for your ADC to 1v2 10 seconds later and blame you for leaving?

Do you like to be abandoned and sacrificed at any given point for no reason and then get blamed for dying?

Do you like being one of the only roles to be forced into buying certain items by your teammates on a fraction of the gold?

If you answered yes to any of these questions, then oh boy do I have a Role for you!

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20164 votes

I mean, I downplayed it in the OP, but the whole "help your allies make some really sweet plays!" bit really is one of the best experiences in League, as I talked about in the comment I linked in the OP.

TheHappyReaperzNov 3, 20161 votes

Baseline amount of agency?

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Baseline amount of agency?

Agency in this context is basically your ability to make a choice that impacts how the game plays out (particularly, in a positive way).

Milla JovovichNov 3, 20161 votes

Supports support okay ?The word alone says it.Don't expect any crazy gold incomes or same level as everyone else.Those things will never change.

Why ? Well if you could be the same level and have the same amount of gold as your teammates then you would become a CARRY and the term Support would be useless.

Supports have enough impact as it is.I dont wan't to fight level 18,full build Zyra/Karma/Bard with Cait/Vayne/Jhin every single game

I main support myself and im fine with the way things are now,You just have to deal with the fact that you can't be as strong as the rest of the team (Besides full AP Supports ,which are not real supports anyway).

LellistairNov 3, 20164 votes

Besides full AP Supports ,which are not real supports anyway

Hey I resent that

Soraka item 2301 item 3020 item 3116 item 3152 item 3089 item 3083

Milla JovovichNov 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Hey I resent that

Nice build Kappa

Hyrum GraffNov 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Supports support okay ?The word alone says it.Don't expect any crazy gold incomes or same level as everyone else.Those things will never change.

Why ? Well if you could be the same level and have the same amount of gold as your teammates then you would become a CARRY and the term Support would be useless.

Supports have enough impact as it is.I dont wan't to fight level 18,full build Zyra/Karma/Bard with Cait/Vayne/Jhin every single game

I main support myself and im fine with the way things are now,You just have to deal with the fact that you can't be as strong as the rest of the team (Besides full AP Supports ,which are not real supports anyway).

I love supporting; it can best experience in League of Legends bar none. That holds even when you're behind the rest of your team; it always has. Go read the comment that I linked in the OP for more on that.

But when supports are so far behind that tank supports can't tank and squishy supports get popped without even a full rotation, something needs to change.

Milla JovovichNov 4, 20162 votes

I love supporting too,but some people think that supports can be equal in power/gold/levels as the rest of the team.It will never happen.

Hyrum GraffNov 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I love supporting too,but some people think that supports can be equal in power/gold/levels as the rest of the team.It will never happen.

I think it could happen (well, the gold. There will always need to be some power level dip for sharing a lane, I think) but would require some pretty drastic changes. That work could be put into several other class reworks, which I think would be a better use of time and resources.

But in the meantime, support needs a little something, because right now the role feels terrible.

Teridax68Nov 4, 20161 votes

This is a pretty good way to put it. When undecided players look at which position to play, they evaluate the pros and cons of each one, what they get to do that's unique, what the tradeoffs are, etc. In the case of supports, though, there are far too many cons: focusing on assisting allies is itself pretty divisive, as it's considered a positive by only a subset of players (which is fine), and disliked by many others, but adding to that is a laundry list of gameplay issues that weigh Support down. Not only do supports often have less gold, experience and overall freedom than most other champions, it's also mandatory to have a support every game, which causes even support mains to eventually burn out. By contrast, marksmen, the only other mandatory class, get priority for gold income and team assistance, and itemize to feel like the most powerful champions in the game.

I think the issue with the support position is that its implementation is sort of backwards: because its appeal is so niche (few people want to sacrifice personal glory for team synergy, and supports across all games tend to be the least popular class), the class and the position both need to essentially have every other concession made for them in order to be popular: at the very least, they should be running on equal gold and experience with their allies, and even if they somehow had the highest gold and XP income, they'd still be niche. They deserve access to items that make them feel powerful at what they do, and focus on their champion's own unique contribution to their team. Even in terms of recognition, there's work to be done, and any champion who assisted in a massive play or an ace deserves recognition on the same level as a kill streak. Instead, supports are saddled with some of the game's largest and most severe set of restrictions, and don't feel valued nearly enough for the tremendous contributions they make to their team.

As for solutions, at this point I think it might be beneficial to supports if Riot removed the Sightstone line: the item is boring, none of its upgrades feel worth buying, yet the item is also mandatory. Supports are not only required to spend an item slot for an effect everyone can already access via trinkets, the very existence of Sightstone forces supports to shoulder the burden of vision more than any other class, which is neither fun nor functional. Without it, supports would have 800 gold and an item slot off of their mandatory build, and remaining items and trinkets could then be buffed as necessary for teams to have the same overall amount of vision and counter-vision. A change like that alone wouldn't solve all the issues with Support, but could go a long way in making them feel more fun.

Hyrum GraffNov 4, 20161 votes

The flip side is that removing SS means supports can't sweep and ward at the same time, which gives them even less agency. Probably not worth it for the meager 800g they gain.

That said, if it were paired with other changes, like ramping up how much gold the income items give, I could certainly see it being beneficial.

Also, support is my favorite role, but it's not exactly because I like "assisting" allies. See the comment I linked in the OP for more on that.

Teridax68Nov 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=me7PRvfg,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2016-11-04T15:53:13.668+0000)

The flip side is that removing SS means supports can't sweep and ward at the same time, which gives them even less agency.

I don't think sweeping and warding simultaneously can really qualify as "agency" when you're forced to do it, especially when doing so comes at a large overall cost in gold and experience due to being out of lane. If supports could only either ward or sweep, they'd have more time to do things that would not involve laying down the vision everybody's supposed to partipate equally in, and could thereby have more agency overall, as they'd get to be closer to where the action is. Having supports dip into vision more than anyone else has never really turned out well for them, and has limited both their itemization and gameplay choices. Prior to Preseason 6, removing Sightstone would have been horrible, because supports would have been forced to load up on wards 24/7, but now that stealth wards aren't purchaseable, there's no "alternative option" for supports to fall back onto, besides maybe Tracker's Knife, which means there wouldn't really be a way for them to be forced to buy a new mandatory vision item, or to do more vision things than anyone else.

As for the game's gold income items, while I think they're ultimately a crutch that should be solved through changes to duo+ laning income, I agree that they should give more gold, though they should likely also have tighter restrictions on their gold generation to avoid being used by solo laners. Having Favor work purely on ally minion kills, and Tribute only activate when an ally is nearby, for example, could achieve that. I also think that their gold generation should be the same across all tiers of each item, which would put less pressure on supports to dump all of their gold into upgrading them early.

Hyrum GraffNov 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I don't think sweeping and warding simultaneously can really qualify as "agency" when you're forced to do it, especially when doing so comes at a large overall cost in gold and experience due to being out of lane.

That's a reasonable argument. Controlling vision does dictate which objectives your team and theirs are able to take, so I think that is something.

That said, it's also easy for a support alone to be caught out while sweeping or warding, and when you need another teammate to come with you to ward/sweep, your agency is now gone anyway.

If supports could only either ward or sweep, they'd have more time to do things that would not involve laying down the vision everybody's supposed to partipate equally in, and could thereby have more agency overall, as they'd get to be closer to where the action is. Having supports dip into vision more than anyone else has never really turned out well for them, and has limited both their itemization and gameplay choices. Prior to Preseason 6, removing Sightstone would have been horrible, because supports would have been forced to load up on wards 24/7, but now that stealth wards aren't purchaseable, there's no "alternative option" for supports to fall back onto, besides maybe Tracker's Knife, which means there wouldn't really be a way for them to be forced to buy a new mandatory vision item, or to do more vision things than anyone else.

Also reasonable. I suspect Tracker's would need to go as well, lest junglers become the new supports.

As for the game's gold income items, while I think they're ultimately a crutch that should be solved through changes to duo+ laning income, I agree that they should give more gold, though they should likely also have tighter restrictions on their gold generation to avoid being used by solo laners. Having Favor work purely on ally minion kills, and Tribute only activate when an ally is nearby, for example, could achieve that. I also think that their gold generation should be the same across all tiers of each item, which would put less pressure on supports to dump all of their gold into upgrading them early.

It would be really interesting to add in that version of favor as a part of the base game. Something like, "When a player kills a minion, 40% of the gold earned by that player is split evenly among nearby allies." Then remove gold gen items (or just replace the gold gen part with something else).

Teridax68Nov 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=me7PRvfg,comment-id=0010000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-05T02:26:46.775+0000)

That said, it's also easy for a support alone to be caught out while sweeping or warding, and when you need another teammate to come with you to ward/sweep, your agency is now gone anyway.

I completely agree with this, which is one of the reasons why I think it's completely backwards for supports to be the ones to go ward/counter-ward more than anyone else. Supports are the least independent class around by design; requiring them to go alone into risky territory more than anyone else might create some interesting tension, but doesn't feel fair either.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=me7PRvfg,comment-id=0010000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-05T02:26:46.775+0000)

Also reasonable. I suspect Tracker's would need to go as well, lest junglers become the new supports.

I agree with this too, Tracker's Knife right now is the fallback option for junglers who don't really want either Smite upgrade, and is niche to the point of having a pick rate consistently below 0.2%. I don't think Sightstone's removal would drastically increase its pick rate, but removing Tracker's Knife would still be an improvement. Generally, I think it might be better for vision to not be increased through any itemization means other than trinkets, since that's when there's the risk of players going for boring-but-essential gold investments.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=me7PRvfg,comment-id=0010000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-05T02:26:46.775+0000)

It would be really interesting to add in that version of favor as a part of the base game. Something like, "When a player kills a minion, 40% of the gold earned by that player is split evenly among nearby allies." Then remove gold gen items (or just replace the gold gen part with something else).

I agree, and I think it might better for the game if it evolved towards equal sharing of gold from all takedowns, both against minions and champions. The current problem is that duo+ laning is designed to be bad without a support, because unbalanced lanes, e.g. 2v1s and the like, are absolutely horrible for both sides. The outnumbered side doesn't have that many options, and the side outnumbering them has to compete for lessened individual rewards. For duo lanes to naturally give better gold and experience, the game needs to solve the problem of stacked lanes, which would hopefully also extend to answering cheesy deathball strats.

Hyrum GraffNov 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I completely agree with this, which is one of the reasons why I think it's completely backwards for supports to be the ones to go ward/counter-ward more than anyone else. Supports are the least independent class around by design; requiring them to go alone into risky territory more than anyone else might create some interesting tension, but doesn't feel fair either.

I agree with this too, Tracker's Knife right now is the fallback option for junglers who don't really want either Smite upgrade, and is niche to the point of having a pick rate consistently below 0.2%. I don't think Sightstone's removal would drastically increase its pick rate, but removing Tracker's Knife would still be an improvement. Generally, I think it might be better for vision to not be increased through any itemization means other than trinkets, since that's when there's the risk of players going for boring-but-essential gold investments.

I agree, and I think it might better for the game if it evolved towards equal sharing of gold from all takedowns, both against minions and champions. The current problem is that duo+ laning is designed to be bad without a support, because unbalanced lanes, e.g. 2v1s and the like, are absolutely horrible for both sides. The outnumbered side doesn't have that many options, and the side outnumbering them has to compete for lessened individual rewards. For duo lanes to naturally give better gold and experience, the game needs to solve the problem of stacked lanes, which would hopefully also extend to answering cheesy deathball strats.

Not sure I agree with equal good sharing from all takedowns. I don't like how Hots feels and there's something nice about being able to get yourself gold in a way that's less reliant on allies.

Too little battery to respond well now tho

Teridax68Nov 6, 20161 votes

I may not have phrased that in the best way, but the idea would be more about increasing the gold from assists so that it would match up to the gold from kills, rather than the other way around. You should still be able to get the same amount of gold as, say, an assassin going on a killing spree, but if you're a support or a tank, your participation in fights would net a much larger reward. If that leads to teamfighting everywhere, all the time, that could be an opportunity to give more power to solo strats, like splitpushing, which have been progressively nerfed over time due to how dominant they can be on some champions.