Counterplay is something you can use your skills to dodge some lethal burst

leakinb·Dec 30, 2017·28 votes·1,857 views

I'm talking about the burst mechanism of (example) with delayed burst that you can dodge/ re-position yourself to avoid dmg, and this should be what a healthy burst is But not these burst (deleting) mechanism (in assassin form), you die in 2 seconds and nothing you can do (Undodgable delayed dmg) Deleting you in 1 seconds with ult on Press R to delete one/ whole team abusing

Disclaimer: I'm NOT saying the above champs are overpowered and just I'm saying that these deleting potential are NOT fun to play against as there is minimal counterplay to that

Upvote if you agree

59 Comments

SEKAIDec 30, 201715 votes

Counterplay doesn't always only exist on the moment-to-moment mechanics between 2 individuals in combat range of one another.

If enemy team has a lot of high HP champs and I get items like Blade of the Ruined King, that itself is a counterplay in motion.
The same goes for red warding and red trinketing to scout if enemy stealth champ is coming to get you.
Or if you gank high scaling targets often so they don't scale as well as they'd like to and so they won't one-shot you later.
Etc.

See the point?

leakinbDec 30, 20174 votes

I see your point But I'm talking about the burst counterplay

NineTailedMysticDec 30, 20178 votes

In order:

Itemization isn't counterplay
Red Trinket does jack shit nowadays vs stealth champions
I guess? But it's a huge risk because a failed gank can just let them snowball insanely fast.

Really, counterplay IS what you can do "in the moment" aka micro. Macro isn't really acceptable counterplay.

CrimsonLotus3Dec 31, 20173 votes

{quoted}

In order:

Itemization isn't counterplay

Red Trinket does jack shit nowadays vs stealth champions

I guess? But it's a huge risk because a failed gank can just let them snowball insanely fast.

Really, counterplay IS what you can do "in the moment" aka micro. Macro isn't really acceptable counterplay.

But macro is counterplay. Macro can be seen as strategy and that strategy to counter whatever, builds up to the moment where you need to counter someone. You can’t just bang your head against the wall going full force or something and except to win the outcome, you need to play around and against it. Anti-burst itemaztion exists so therefore it is counterplay. Playing around individual champion burst requirements or just playing around them is a strategy to mitegate and even nullify counterplay. This is not to say it would work 100% of the time I’m trying to prove the point that strategy and working around something is counter play because it can nullify the threat.

I also wanna point out the fact you claim control wards and sweepers do not do anything. I question that. Yes in the moment they cannot reveal a champion under stealth but they can help with acquiring vision around an area to prevent flanks; giving you a heads up and time to prepare.

NineTailedMysticDec 31, 20171 votes

Macro isn't counterplay, because you aren't countering a champion's kit. You're actively avoiding interacting with them. Yes, you can win the game by out-macroing them, but that has nothing to do with the champion in question's kit. That's part of why Assassins were reworked, the only real "counterplay" to them used to be only macro, avoiding them in 1v1 situations all together.

Active items can be counterplay, but just the act of buying an item is not. Denying a Zed ult with Zhonya's/Stopwatch = Counterplay. Buying a Tank item vs Zed = Not counterplay.

AMYS GRAVEDec 31, 20172 votes

If the enemy team has low mobility, then the counterplay is (at least in part) to rotate faster than they can, and that is a counter to part of their kit.

Macro is absolutely counterplay.

NineTailedMysticDec 31, 20171 votes

What "low mobility"? Few champions have an innate ability to their kit to "rotate faster". Maybe Sona, Kench, Ryze, Aurelion, and Pantheon. If you said split pushing, sure, some champions are good at splitting. But beating Tryndamere shouldn't have to be "force 5v4's on his team and base race him faster", which is why macro is unacceptable "counterplay".

Rotating better comes down to Wind Dragons and better shot calling/game sense, not any individual champion which makes it inherently irrelevant to.

If macro is "absolutely counterplay", then you'd be ok with a champion who could 1v1-1v5 anyone at any point in the game no questions asked, but couldn't ward or take objectives? Obviously an extreme example, but that's what the "its ok if you can't counterplay them with micro, just out-macro them" argument boils down to.

AMYS GRAVEJan 2, 20181 votes

then you'd be ok with a champion who could 1v1-1v5 anyone at any point in the game no questions asked, but couldn't ward or take objectives?

Those champions are played exclusively in bronze 5, and they are super easy to counter. I would have serious issues with the described champions kit, but they would have counterplay.

CytheGuyDec 31, 20173 votes

Counterplay.

Counter = doing something to hinder/stop another's plans Play = ...Play

NineTailedMysticDec 31, 20171 votes

Buying that item sure does involve a lot of playing, amirite?

SalsonDec 30, 20174 votes

Most of them have some counterplay.

Kayn Riven JarvanIV - you can see them you know, pick something that can fight/burst back, use CC or run in the other direction. They do lose most of their counterplay when 10/0, but that's pretty much everyone.

Diana Veigar Syndra - you got hit by something, as these guys need their Q/W/E to land to finish you off.

MonkeyKing Shaco Annie Rengar - need updates, so I agree with you here.

Talon - has decent counterplay unless he kamikazes you, then your fucked but so is he.

MissFortune - not that scary, you just need a decent skill level to play against her Q, which makes her a bit of a pubstomper.

Twitch - overtuned numbers, R should last longer and not give AD.

Plastic 5 ADCDec 31, 20172 votes

Pretty sure Syndra only needs R to one shot squishies. [sg-syndra]

SalsonDec 31, 20171 votes

Not on lvl 6 and with no items, also her R can't proc Electrocute unlike Thunderlord's.

But if she gets 2-3 levels and 2k gold ahead you're dead. Or if you think you can survive a lvl 18 full build Syndra with no hp or mr.

ChuShoeDec 30, 20174 votes

Please don't tell me you actually think brand is healthy.

Lethality is broken, that's all I can say.

Perma CCDec 30, 20174 votes

There is more forms of counterplay outside of dodging skills. Itemization is a way to counter specific champs.

SasogwaDec 30, 20173 votes

Veigar has only one spell that " can't be dodged " (and it still has untargetability/zhonya counterplay) and the % missing health on it makes it absolutely worthless if he doesn't :

have teammates to pull enemy health down
land his freaking skillshots

In any case I'm kinda fine with somewhat undodgeable oneshot squishy potential. It forces carries to go into defensive itemisation and less disgustingly melt people. It enforces a threat zone that's more than just : oh if i don't pay attention and don't dodge the obvious skillshot, I might die !

leakinbDec 30, 20171 votes

I would consider untargetability/ zhonya as minimal counterplay as just a little champ will have untargetable abilities or intentionally build zhonya to counter that ult

Everytime play against Veigar I feel bad when he ults me with 1k dmg mid-game and lose my remaining 50% hp (Note: His R dmg increase by 75% when the enemy's missing health is 50%)

yoshi2790Dec 30, 20173 votes

I agree on all except Syndra , her burst is not instant. the balls go one by one and item 2420 or other invulnerable things are easily timed because the balls go one by one. The damage also isnt high enough to kill with 1 button since she got nerfed. I'm not saying its perfect, but it's not as bad as the ones listed.

Also Kayn's ult has counterplay, it takes long and you can reposition yourself easily. He also appears right next to you. His other abilities only oneshot you if he's very much ahead.

ChuShoeDec 30, 20172 votes

He means in the SA form with full lethality, in which case, his ult will take half your health, and his auto will take the other half.

Brain Errör 404Dec 30, 20172 votes

Riven/Annie are both champs that you can dodge and reposition yourself to avoid their damage from. Out of all iterations of Assassins, Riven is by far one of the healthier ones. And I do say this with full bias. Leblanc is unhealthy in the form of an assassin because her burst is TOO delayed. Brand is a good example of healthy, and one could argue against Kat, but Kat is such a high skill floor that it's almost relatable seeing her normally do bad.

I'd even argue Zed is pretty health as well and has a lot of ways to outplay him, too. As much as I hate saying it, Shaco also fits the same boat as well. The rest, I completely agree with, even if Rengar is dog shit.

Glory97Dec 30, 20172 votes

You see, what they did to lb. "Extended burst window", needs 1.5 sec to kill the adc in teamfight, but dies within 0.5 sec. Kata is very easy too shut down in teamfight as well (unless fed) and brand is not really trying to target squishy targets, but prefers to sit back at safe distance (Primarily using spells against tanks, or to cc enemy assassins, so it't not really lethal burst, in teamfight).

There is no counterplay against being oneshot by certain champions in 0.1 sec, but these champions are needed in place, where adcs have a cheap item build and outclass any other champion class in mid to late-game, where dps-oriented adcs can outburst the burst champions. IF these "no-counterplay-lethal-burst-champions" didn't exist, 5 adc teamcomp would be they only viable teamcomp (maybe 4 adc + 1 supp like janna/soraka, but that's not the point)

nice tableDec 30, 20172 votes

katarina is healthy burst btw hehexd

Ben SwoIoDec 30, 20172 votes

It's not just assassin / burst champs.

Wtf is the counter play to Nasus ? Pray your team is coordinated enough to consistently make sure he doesn't farm? Now the rest of the map is getting neglected because he requires constant attention, otherwise he will skillfully power up his Q and crush towers / your team mates.

Don't say gw or armor is effective, that shit only helps in the beginning (if at all). Not much countrplay at all to someone with a point and click 9999999% slow and a Q cane that becomes Thor's hammer after farming minions.

At least Veigar needs to land his event horizon correctly and is squishy. Nasus just clicks W and proceeds to Q you to death while eating damage that he gets to heal through. Plus he gets to Q towers. Not fun, not cool.

Plastic 5 ADCDec 31, 20171 votes

Thor's hammer xDDDD, i loled

It really does feel like that tho summoner 3

AhristocatsDec 30, 20172 votes

then how comes zoe has 70% ban rate

2 skillshots and you can bodyblock them unlike syndra

SwiftKitten88Dec 30, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=md5kVLLB,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-12-30T19:09:45.942+0000)

then how comes zoe has 70% ban rate

2 skillshots and you can bodyblock them unlike syndra

lol yeah u can body block them... if you have over 3000 hp... otherwise you're just gonna die instead

AhristocatsDec 30, 20172 votes

so you can then, since tanks are made to block skillshots

SwiftKitten88Dec 30, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=md5kVLLB,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2017-12-30T19:45:09.340+0000)

so you can then, since tanks are made to block skillshots

yes.. if im playing my Warwick i can block a a skillshot... great..

this isn't jungle nidalee, or even reworked nidalee ,this is the same as pre-rework nidalee, zoe doesn't need to "go in" or put herself in any danger she is going to sit on the backline all day lobbing paddle stars and bubbles at you.

why the hell do u think nidalee was reworked? why do u think OVER HALF the damage on her her spear was brought to her takedown? why do they decided to make her pounce into melee range to get her full damage combo off?

THEY DID THIS TO GIVE HER COUNTERPLAY!!!

if you try to close on on the old nid.. she swaps to kitty form and pounces over a wall.. if u try to close in on zoe she throws a bubble at you.

Zoe is LITERALLY "old nidalee"

and it shouldn't take a Nidalee main to realize that.

its pretty freaking obvious.

AhristocatsDec 30, 20172 votes

the difference between old nidalee and current zoe is that old nidalee hitbox was x2 your character, old nidalee was mobile and impossible to kill once caught, she could heal herself and her Q had 1550 range which is way higher than zoe's Q

SwiftKitten88Dec 30, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=md5kVLLB,comment-id=000c0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-30T20:25:55.086+0000)

the difference between old nidalee and current zoe is that old nidalee hitbox was x2 your character, old nidalee was mobile and impossible to kill once caught, she could heal herself and her Q had 1550 range which is way higher than zoe's Q

.... wrong on both counts... old nidalee Q was 60 width

Nidalee Q right now is 40 width

Morgana Q is 80

although if ne1 could provide an up to date list of these numbers i would appreciate it, i know i am correct on these 2 counts.. but i would like to have an official list as reference.. (because like the person i am quoting many others are mistaken and i would like to have a reference.

AhristocatsDec 30, 20174 votes

{quoted}

old nidalee Q was 60 width

i don't know about numbers all i remember is playing countlessly against old nidalee and having her spear hitting me while the spear was missing me

you can find a lot of gifs showing that on google if you wish, just type '"nidalee spear hitbox"

SwiftKitten88Dec 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=md5kVLLB,comment-id=000c000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-30T20:54:25.446+0000)

i don't know about numbers all i remember is playing countlessly against old nidalee and having her spear hitting me while the spear was missing me

you can find a lot of gifs showing that on google if you wish, just type '"nidalee spear hitbox"

i just did... it consisted of a shit tone of nidalee spears that should have hit that didn't.. yet somehow i don't think that's is what your getting at

if u want to link an actual video then go ahead

because i all see is stuff like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj36rE1pidk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uju9KjP6es

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-2x-16bGuQ

and if u mean that "first" responce in said reddit post about the invisble spear bug? of course its not going to match the visuals when the visual have been glitched off from an exploit

and YES before u try to argue it IS an expliot

to throwing an invisible spear required you to do a series of events thats no nidalee would normally ever do in a specific way. and unless you knew EXACTLY how to do it it was near impossible to reproduce.. which is why it took riot over 6 months to fix... because they couldn't replicate it. until some person happened to figure out how and show riot a video

as a nidalee main who threw well over 50k spears... during that time.. i only ever visually glitched out a total of THREE of them. and those were easily 50-100 games apart.. if somone was throwing "multiple" invisble spears pear game... they clearly knew how to do said exploit and were not only abusing it to gain elo but NOT A SINGLE ONE bothered to actaully tell riot how it was done.

so no... i dont see any "issues" with her hitbox.

if you want to post some video's go ahead... but it had a 60 width, and regardless of what a visual shows... if said 60 width touched your hitbox... u got hit

AhristocatsDec 30, 20174 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/ee1fc6a375a610ba259adf094d27f7f5.png

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4341931

https://i.gyazo.com/055033e6a1b9c8131e877eb5cea78a30.png

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4483021&page=1

i'm talking about her old hitbox, it got fixed during the rework you wanted to compare old nidalee with zoe, zoe Q doesn't have old nidalee bugged hitbox

SwiftKitten88Dec 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=md5kVLLB,comment-id=000c00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-30T22:30:53.448+0000)

https://i.gyazo.com/ee1fc6a375a610ba259adf094d27f7f5.png

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4341931

https://i.gyazo.com/055033e6a1b9c8131e877eb5cea78a30.png

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4483021&page=1

i'm talking about her old hitbox, it got fixed during the rework you wanted to compare old nidalee with zoe, zoe Q doesn't have old nidalee bugged hitbox

show me an actual VIDEO if the spear hitting, not a single frame... i cant make a judgement off a single frame. right now her model is facing away from the spear, which clearly shows she is in motion. and she moved positions. also.. 60 width is a hell of a lot bigger than that spear visual..

AMYS GRAVEDec 31, 20171 votes

Someone doesn't understand a tanks job.

Tanks don't block skillshots, their teammates dodge them properly and no one takes damage. Tanks hold down enemy champions so your teams skillshots can land.

ampheonDec 31, 20171 votes

Both Vangaurds and Wardens exist

AMYS GRAVEJan 2, 20181 votes

Warden's don't block skillshots either, the carry dodges them appropriately. Tanks of both flavours might block targeted projectiles like cait ult, but skillshots should be expected to be dodged in most circumstances.

ampheonJan 3, 20181 votes

I see your point, but what if the carry is doing everything else alright, but has difficulty dodging skillshots, or is low on hp, wouldn't it be in the Wardens best interest to block it?

ChuShoeDec 30, 20171 votes

Because if you get hit with the stun and noone else is around you're going to get 1-shot unless you're a full tank, and unless you've built zhonyas.

The abilities are spammed so often it's bound to happen at some point.

sobi999Dec 30, 20171 votes

As a brand support main, i have to agree that playing brand requires a lot of positioning and patience. You simply have to outplay your opponent. Dusk blade is in clear need of review.

SEKAIDec 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

As a brand support main, i have to agree that playing brand requires a lot of positioning and patience. You simply have to outplay your opponent. Dusk blade is in clear need of review.

Though once you do get the chance you kinda just unleash like a volcano and enemies just instantly die (well, almost, and then the passive kicks in because good comboing and/or positioning).

Props for the immersion and sticking to the theme, I suppose.

......

But yeah, Duskblade is busted. Has been so for quite some time.

leakinbDec 30, 20172 votes

At least I feel fun playing against brand to dodge his Q and W At least I will not feel bad and hopeless being deleted

ChíckenDaddyDec 30, 20171 votes

Now while those champs may more counterplay then others. counterplay can also include how you build, position, and rotate around the map.

ShablagooDec 31, 20171 votes

Glad they fixed Rengar right well deserved rework oh wait.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NymeA5HIM)

DraehlDec 31, 20171 votes

At least with most of those you can hide under tower. Don't get me started on the immunity BS of MasterYi and Fizz

Ahri BakaDec 31, 20171 votes

I agree except the Annie part she is a mage after all , and she is supposed to kill you in 1 second actually mages are pretty late anyway due to the new system besides , she has a counter play , just don't get close to her , and if you are an adc , your support won't make it a problem so Syndra might be actually strong , she can be helpful in team fights generally more than Annie , Annie is mostly unplayble without her ult most of times . and especially in late game

ChaddyFantomeDec 31, 20171 votes

all you have to do to avoid dying to Talon is avoid his his W or R hits, and if he DOES get 3 marks on you, don't let him auto you. that is your counterplay.

TeCoolMageDec 31, 20171 votes

Talon has a surprising amount of counterplay if you have CC.

If he Ws at max range you walk away and don't take the second tick of damage If he Ws melee you actually walk into and through him His ult is extremely short in invisibility duration, so if you have AOE CC you can cast it at yourself at approx half way through the duration since he will always end up in melee range. If you have single target CC, with a decent reaction time (and there's actually a minimum combo time of like a second or two) you can instantly CC him the moment he leaves stealth, usually he'll hit one auto, or Q, but never proc passive unless he opens with W which is very hard

I mean it's so easy to kill him compared to other assassins as Anivia or Xerath (okay Evelynn is easier to kill as Xerath because her charm actually gives you a pointer and you can throw E immediately), despite people thinking he's a counterpick

ampheonDec 31, 20171 votes

Isn't this true for every assassin?

TeCoolMageDec 31, 20171 votes

If you mean the part where I say 'Talon has a surprising amount of counterplay if you have CC', no, a majority of assassins have a completely expected and reasonable amount of counterplay if you have CC.

Talons kit (in particular) on paper looks like it's all undodgeable AOE, or point and click and would be impossible to counter, but really if you look at it his mobility almost always exists to close the gap (barring the very occasional 200 IQ parkour dodge), rather than to dodge or negate an ability, and his delays let you put in a delayed CC ability before he procs his passive.

When I first had the Talon matchup as Anivia, I was like "Wow, what's going on?", I didn't know the tricks to dodge his W, but at the same time I was surprised by the effectiveness of simply double tapping my Q point blank for the stun. It's not like Zed where he sends his shadow, uses his abilities from a distance then reactivate shadow to gap close for autos as well as dodging somethig, Talon just places himself smack in front of me like a pantheon without CC. We ended up killing each other a ton because we both were confused as to how to deal with each other. He'd W Q auto and I'd fail to dodge his W, I'd RQE and he'd have no mobility to counter me (too far from walls to E, too far from me to Q)