Kog'Maw changes on the PBE will push him from bot lane to mid.

Packun Flower·Dec 3, 2015·3 votes·761 views

For those who don;t know, Kog'maw recently had a change on the PBE to his W.

Bio-Arcane Barrage [ W ]

AD ratio on-hit removed (1.25% per 100 points of Total AD on live)
Now deals an additional flat damage of 2% (of target&rsquo;s Max HP).

I feel that if they remove the AD ration on his W's % damage but leave the AP ration there then Kog'Maw will find himself pushed out of bot lane as an ADC and moved to mid lane as an AP attack speed champ. The only thing on kogs kit that will scale with AD is his ult and even that also has an AP Ration. As interesting as an AP/Attack speed build sounds, Kog'maw would get totally obliterated in the mid lane by any assassin or mobility champs as an opponent, so I am hoping this change does not go through live.

Thoughts?

9 Comments

Blue KaoziDec 3, 20153 votes

I think most people are already building him like that. Rageblade and hurricane are really popular on him. If your team needs AP, wits end or nashors would be strong too. I dont think he would go mid though, he still has no escape. Like corki / ez I'd be more inclined to pick him with an all AD team to round out our damage a bit.

MoonBlade92Dec 3, 20151 votes

It's my opinnion this change is going to push him OUT OF THE GAME, not out of bot lane. On a Hybrid build, Kog would usually have over 250 AD with his core (Nashor's/Devourer+Rageblade+Gunblade). This is just a nerf to his AD duilds, not a buff to AP, nor anything else for that matter. Repertoir has said that the rework wasn't meant to "remove AP Kog", but the mana cost increase and the changes to his W did just that. And now instead of a change that makes him GOOD in mid, he was just changed to be even worse bot. Not really happy, but hey, at least he can abuse Jungle now if left alone.

Sightless66Dec 3, 20151 votes

I have to disagree. This actually seems like a pretty significant buff to me. Until you have at least 3 items and a lot of levels, you're going to have under 160 AD. If I get rageblade and gunblade (which usually isn't what people do, there is most often an attack speed item in between those, and there will definitely be an attack speed item following.), then I'll get 70-94 AD. Even at that point, I'm only guaranteed to break even on AD at level 16, and even at level 18 I'd only get up to 168-192, which isn't that high over the 160 AD breaking point. I'll need to finish my build and have level 18 before I'm losing significant amounts of damage, and even then it will be a very small percentage of my dps because I have maxed skills, AD and on-hit effects making up a larger percentage of my damage.

However, I'm gaining a huge percentage increase to my damage early game. Early on, I don't have many sources of damage other than just autoing with W, and the damage from that will be increased significantly. That means I'll actually gain a pretty large % increase to my dps, much higher than the % I'll lose later.

Basically, gaining a flat amount of damage early game usually matters than losing the exact same amount late game, because that same amount represents a higher percentage of your damage early on that it will later. And Kog is actually gaining more early game than he loses late game. That's just nice.

MoonBlade92Dec 3, 20152 votes

While I understand where you are coming from, I can't say I agree. On my end, this is an improvement, because now I can make a Rylais/Frozen Mallet and I don't have to think about building some AD, but it's still a nerf to his endgame. Which, mind, wasn't even the strongest one on the game. RIOT keeps talking about the "hypercarry fantasy" but critsticks like Trist/Jinx and lately MF STILL have better scalings late, due to their attacks being far stronger (because the abbundance of crit chance items), their mobility being better (they all even have better MS, in addition to ways to boost it), and their range being almost as good (Trist passive, MF's reach is actually rather imposing with Q and R and Jinx's has her range be bigger than Trist's), and they all have steroids with little tradeoff (MF and Trist raw AS boosts, Jinx the snowball from her passive now). Certainly, he kills tanks better, but it's simply hte "DPS vs Burst" dillema and how burst ends up winning in LoL all the time, unless absurdly broken (case in point: the amount of changes that Ryze has had over the years were all based around him being a "machinegun of spells" and he is never i na good place because he eather deals no dmaage and gets ruined by burst mages, or deals too much and ruins everyone else). Same with Kog. he can't build AD and Crit, so his attacks are painfully weak and WEAKER with his W. Of course, the % of max HP on every attack is good, but it usually isn't as good as a 3rd of your HP from ONE attack lategame (and he can't ahve that, for obvious reasons).

Adding that 2% is nice, but it's completely off the mark IMO, and it's ESPECIALLY not worth nerfing his lategame for the sake of well, just not helping his early game much eather...

Sightless66Dec 3, 20151 votes

Adding that 2% is nice, but it's completely off the mark IMO, and it's ESPECIALLY not worth nerfing his lategame for the sake of well, just not helping his early game much eather...

The problem I have with this is that it implies that the lategame nerf and the early game buff are equilivent, and they aren't. They just aren't. The extra damage is just a much higher percent of his total damage early on than it is later, particularly since the actual amount gained in the early game is more than is lost in even the latest of the late game.

I know that he's a lategame champion and he has that whole lategame fantasy thing going on, but that doesn't mean that he isn't going to benefit from getting a lot more power early than he loses late. The complete and utter lack of any early game power is holding him back much more than any late game weaknesses he has.

I agree with you on everything else you said about stuff not relating to this change, but on the topic of this change, it's a buff. I do not think this will be the buff that returns him to relevance (or even that it will be particularly good), but it is a buff.

Just to make that really clear: It's not the buff that will fix him (and he does need fixing), but it is technically a power increase that will benefit him.

MoonBlade92Dec 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Just to make that really clear: It's not the buff that will fix him (and he does need fixing), but it is technically a power increase that will benefit him.

I completely agree, but the thing is: this change will NOT benefit him as much as you think, simple as that, it just SEEMS that way. The number is too small to be significant and gained in a point where Kog will usually not be doing much damage anyway (Laning phase) and even if he did, the 2% of max P means that he will be dealing aprox 20 more damage per AA before resistances (assuming he isn't up vs a tanky support that can't get close to him). It's a very inconsequential buff, and I don't think it warranted a nerf of any sorts to happen, which is basically my problem with it (not to mention it's literally a step back from the concept of the rework, making Kog a bit more like his old incarnation, making one wonder "if your first reaction is to revert changes, why ever touch him in the first place?").

tl;dr I can't call a buff and a nerf at the same time a "buff" no matter what, and while I feel your theory is sound, the practice from my Kog games tells me that I'd rather have the AD during midgame and lategame mean something, then getting an earlygame buff that doesn't help any of my issues in the lane (damage is still low, range is still low, AS is actually STILL low). The worst part about all of this is RIOT keeping silent on why they are going trough with these changes (Hell, he was even released with his Q being worse than the PBE version for some reason), and that of all is probably the best reason for no Kog player to just say "Well it's a buff, they are on the right track!", because for all we know, they more than likely are not.

IsmokeOreganoDec 3, 20151 votes

i always play koggles AP, even before his update. Not mid, bottom (yes, as an "adc"). Not hybrid but pure AP with a little survivablility (i.e ROA and Rylais) and he wrecks people. Attack speed isn't even necessary, his E does great damage and the slow on that + rylais, hit them with the Q and an ult and they usually dead. Hard early game but late game is a breeze. I was actually dissapointed at the new update giving a mana cost on his W and lowering his AP ratios but maybe this will help him come back

Sightless66Dec 3, 20151 votes

He's already being played bot lane with on-hit items instead of traditional ADC items. I'm not sure what would necessitate him going to mid after this change. You're still just as free to play him bot lane as ever, and it's not like he's going to become less effective there because of a buff.