Riven Q shouldn't proc Black Cleaver

Glîtchy·Jun 6, 2017·2 votes·591 views

because it literally is just enhanced autos that make you wonder, "was Riot high as hell when making Riven"

14 Comments

DeathBurstJun 6, 20176 votes

Black Cleaver procs from ALL physical damage. Including auto-attacks. So that's a bad argument.

It's also a bad argument because Riven's Q is absolutely not an enhanced auto, it's a point-blank AoE spell. Are YOU high as hell? Maybe you're confusing it with Riven's passive?

If anything, you should be happy that real enhanced auto-attacks (like a Garen Q, for instance) do not proc Cleaver twice, one for the normal auto and one for the enhancement.

NiamhNyxJun 6, 20175 votes

You are correct, it should not proc black cleaver. It should proc it twice just to piss you off. ˙ ͜ʟ˙

OceanicEyesJun 6, 20172 votes

How could it not, unless we made black cleaver no longer apply on physical spell damage, or made Riven's Q interact differently with the item.

I don't think that making items balanced uniquely for specific champions would be a good idea. From here we'd have to somehow figure out where we draw the line with how the items interact with every champion.

For example, I'd consider Darius' bleed applying Black Cleaver stacks to be even better synergy than Riven and Black Cleaver. Does this mean we should make special cases where some champions lose this strong item interaction, while others still have access to it? Otherwise we'd have to change the way Black Cleaver works, which would be a significant change for all those who buy it.

GlîtchyJun 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

How could it not, unless we made black cleaver no longer apply on physical spell damage, or made Riven's Q interact differently with the item.

I don't think that making items balanced uniquely for specific champions would be a good idea. From here we'd have to somehow figure out where we draw the line with how the items interact with every champion.

For example, I'd consider Darius' bleed applying Black Cleaver stacks to be even better synergy than Riven and Black Cleaver. Does this mean we should make special cases where some champions lose this strong item interaction, while others still have access to it? Otherwise we'd have to change the way Black Cleaver works, which would be a significant change for all those who buy it.

there are some champs where this item is absurdly broken

Garen Darius Tryndamere Riven Vayne Fiora are a few good examples

OceanicEyesJun 6, 20172 votes

The problem with making them unable to proc Black Cleaver is that is requires inconsistencies with mechanics (they deal physical spell damage but somehow don't proc it?), or you rework how Black Cleaver works.

With champions who are arguably abusing the item, I would situationally nerf the champ. For example, if Riven (not saying it's true or false) was absolutely broken with her Q and Black Cleaver, I'd recommend nerfing her Q over removing Black Cleaver interaction.

GlîtchyJun 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The problem with making them unable to proc Black Cleaver is that is requires inconsistencies with mechanics (they deal physical spell damage but somehow don't proc it?), or you rework how Black Cleaver works.

With champions who are arguably abusing the item, I would situationally nerf the champ. For example, if Riven (not saying it's true or false) was absolutely broken with her Q and Black Cleaver, I'd recommend nerfing her Q over removing Black Cleaver interaction.

the problem is, she already has high damage scaling on her abilities that it makes it pointless to try and outlast her unless you're a marksman champ, and the black cleaver just ensures she won't lose melee 1-3v1

OceanicEyesJun 6, 20172 votes

I find with burst and cc you can deal with her well enough, especially if it's 1-3v1 with two+ people focusing her. Though that depends entirely on context. Skill level of the players, how ahead Riven is, which champs are against her, etc etc. Tons of variables that make it harder to make and judge a hypothetical fight.

Overall I'd still say that burst and CC mess her up badly as she has lackluster sustain. In teamfight situations, as long as there isn't a higher priority target, I like to exhaust her when she ults, cc, and quickly burst her down. If she can get on the team though, she does the job of shredding up a team very well.

ZaghyrJun 6, 20172 votes

There is no problem with her needing BC. Look at all the champions you have listed. Aside from Riven herself and tryndamere (he's a special case because of crit) every one of them have 1) % health damage or 2) natural armor shred. Riven may have overwhelming offensive power, but that kind of thing is necassary because she is one the only fighters in the game that lacks a counter-based damage source. Most fighters have mixed damage, true damage, % health damage, or armor pen/shred so they can have an edge against other fighters and tanks since fighters will generally build some defense. Riven has none of that. Whether you want to believe it or not, her kit is naturally at a disadvantage against other top laners because her ONLY damage source is flat physical damage. Almost every other top laner, besides mages, has a way to overcome the defenses of the enemy laner, except Riven. BC is extremely necessary for Riven, ESPECIALLY if she gets behind. When Riven gets behind, if the other laner is good, it becomes very hard to get back into the game unless you mercilessly slaughter the rest of the other team. Other fighters having % health damage and armor shred/pen is a way for them to still have some sort of impact if they are super behind.

And as for her winning 1v3....well that is a given all of her abilites are point-blank AOE except for R2

O Fallen ScholarJun 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

there are some champs where this item is absurdly broken

are a few good examples

Not broken. It's just an item that they need 90% of times.

SasogwaJun 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

there are some champs where this item is absurdly broken

are a few good examples

Am I the only one to see Vayne on that list? Vayne Black cleaver?!

Trynda doesn't use it that much since they reduced AD and increased HP ; I don't think Boxerpete runs it that much anymore.

GlîtchyJun 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Am I the only one to see Vayne on that list? Vayne Black cleaver?!

Trynda doesn't use it that much since they reduced AD and increased HP ; I don't think Boxerpete runs it that much anymore.

Then why have I been seeing it on them SO MUCH lately?

SasogwaJun 6, 20171 votes