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Why did Shaco lose his entire Q damage grace period?

ChickenWrap··5 votes·1,269 views

https://puu.sh/zWduB/eadd388d58.png

Yeah, Gunblade Shaco was a little strong with the 70% and 30% respective ratios. That's fine. Either remove the Ap ratio or reduce the AD ratio, agreed.

What's not OK is screwing Shaco over like this in regards to his Q grace period. What this does is:

  1. Prevents Shaco from being able to open with anything but his Q auto. This is bad
  2. Punishes Shaco for not being able to reach his target off of his Q alone, which is very difficult in the early-game when his stealth timer isn't even enough to get him into the lane
  3. If he starts his auto and issues a movement command by mistake or if something else cancels his auto, he's immediately removed from stealth. This means that he just wasted his entire Q damage bonus because of the game itself. If you issue an attack command and the animation starts, you're removed from stealth. Not when it finishes, but when it starts. This happens often enough on Shaco that a moderate grace period of 1-1.5 seconds would be enough to solve this without hurting him for problems in the game like that.

Why did the grace period need to become 1/10th of what it was? That's just ridiculous.

40 Comments

dunder kill5 votes

Probably because any time the balance team breathes near Shaco he becomes broken OP again and theyve finally learned little tweaks do jack shit once theve broken him

ChickenWrap5 votes

They just pigeonholed Shaco into maxing Q first or being useless, but also having a high chance of being useless regardless because of how the game operates.

dunder kill6 votes

In reality Shaco is still at 52.6% WR with a 7.2% playrate on this patch.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Shaco/

Wow destroyed

ZenithEevee1 votes

{quoted}

In reality Shaco is still at 52.6% WR with a 7.2% playrate on this patch.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Shaco/

Wow destroyed

Hmmm it seems that, Oh, The day a patch hit that rams shaco into the ground, The playrate wont change that much.

Yet, The moment you look at the graphs, Pickrates All across the boards Are sinking faster than the titanic.

Also, This "Day one" Records on shit after a patch, Basically fucking useless because not everyone reads the patchnotes, And not everyone is going to shift over, Because not everyone knows the full weight of said changes.

Vekkna5 votes

I'm sorry your freelo train derailed.

Based on your past posts, you probably thought he was perfectly balanced.

ChickenWrap5 votes

Given that I played Shaco avidly when he was dumpster tier too, I really don't think you have a leg to stand on when all I ask for is for him to have a 1 second grace period on his Q. I'm not asking for damage buffs, lmfao. Just asking for him to be able to use his spell

pryda0225 votes

Quit your crying even after these nerfs he is still strong . I swear no champion mains are delusional about the power of the champ they more then Shaco mains

ChickenWrap4 votes

I'm not asking for damage buffs. No Shaco players are currently asking for damage buffs. Just a realistic grace period on his Q. Do you know what a grace period is?

pryda0221 votes

{quoted}

I'm not asking for damage buffs. No Shaco players are currently asking for damage buffs. Just a realistic grace period on his Q. Do you know what a grace period is? What your asking for is making his damage pattern and assaianation of a target more forgiving he doesn’t need it. Shaco is a unique champ in that he’s hard to learn but once you are good with him he’s easy to do well due to his safety and the amount of vision that’s been taken out of the game. Not to mention unlike older shacks where he fell off or could only spilt later in game now with dark harvest he stays relevant and is even stronger then a lot of junglers that he normally wouldn’t be. More then likely he will see a nerf if his play rate and win rate stays high.

ChickenWrap1 votes

... Good meme post, dude.

https://puu.sh/zXj0V/e21f7e4894.png

Let me know when you've played Shaco in a single ranked game since Season 3 and let's discuss this again.

pryda0221 votes

{quoted}

... Good meme post, dude.

https://puu.sh/zXj0V/e21f7e4894.png

Let me know when you've played Shaco in a single ranked game since Season 3 and let's discuss this again.

Lol u think maybe I have more then 1 account? The champ sitting at 55wr and 5play rate in play plus and your crying like a little girl. U still haven’t listed 3 assassins that are better then him

ChickenWrap1 votes

Go ahead then, prove it to me.

Kha, Eve, Zed, Rengar, Nocturne, and even Twitch put out more damage than Shaco more reliably than Shaco does until the mid/late-game when Shaco has items, and then Shaco deals the same damage they have been enjoying all game long.

"No they don't. I know this because of Shaco's win rate relative to theirs!" Okay. That's not how that works.

ankoanko193 votes

Because toxic champions shouldnt be op. The only reason Khazix is allowed to be op and not shaco is because Khazix is more manageable.

ChickenWrap4 votes

{quoted}

Because toxic champions shouldnt be op. The only reason Khazix is allowed to be op and not shaco is because Khazix is more manageable.

Shaco is entirely manageable and most champions in this game are toxic. This has nothing to even do with his ratio nerfs. This is about giving him even the opportunity to land his Q properly like he's always had.

ankoanko192 votes

{quoted}

Shaco is entirely manageable and most champions in this game are toxic. This has nothing to even do with his ratio nerfs. This is about giving him even the opportunity to land his Q properly like he's always had.

Shaco is entirely manageable Strong early,mid,late. The nerf was to reduce his lategame obviously.

ChickenWrap5 votes

Strong early - Lol. Yeah, good joke dude. Shaco hasn't had a strong early-game since his rework. Strong mid - Yeah, he has an OK mid now Strong late - Yes, Late-game is where Shaco is the best, but he's not better than other assassins.

His late-game winrate actually dropped after the changes, because he still came up with a net loss to his burst damage even with the Q buff in the late-game after the Duskblade changes. It made him a strong mid-game champion, able to contend with other mid-game assassins.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

Strong early - Lol. Yeah, good joke dude. Shaco hasn't had a strong early-game since his rework. Strong mid - Yeah, he has an OK mid now Strong late - Yes, Late-game is where Shaco is the best, but he's not better than other assassins.

His late-game winrate actually dropped after the changes, because he still came up with a net loss to his burst damage even with the Q buff in the late-game after the Duskblade changes. It made him a strong mid-game champion, able to contend with other mid-game assassins.

False! He is still one of the few junglers who can pick up ignite and with a redbuff can guarantee a midlane/toplane sums or kills. He is like Twitch in that sense. It just so HAPPENS that he is a lot stronger lategame (especially with dark harvest) because he doesn't fall off the same way he used to. If I'm being completly honest, I can't tell a difference between this Shaco and the pre-reworked one. It just seems as if this Shaco has a stronger lategame and doesn't need to splitpush 24/7 like the old one.

ChickenWrap2 votes

But he can't do that, lmfao. Twitch, yes. Shaco, no. Why not? Shaco doesn't have the stealth time or the range/cc to pull that off and hasn't for years.

Shaco gave up being an early/mid powerhouse to be a good late-game assassin. Unfortunately that meant that he was garbage compared to other assassins until late-game where they both 100-0'd eachother anyway and half those assassins had a way to counter Shaco's engage and turn and kill him.

But now he's a mid/late champion because his Q actually has damage on it, even though his late-game burst is still missing out on like 200-ish damage from before.

All I want is for Shaco's Q damage to be able to actually be applied to his enemies a little later than .25 seconds because of all the stealth-related factors that cheese you out of stealth and make it miss or allowing Shaco to engage with E first if he needs to. It's not asking for much at all to have a 1-1.5 second grace period on the little Q bonus damage, my man. The fact that you "can't tell a difference" between the two Shaco's is because you don't play the champion and don't care to learn anything about him. That's ignorance.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

But he can't do that, lmfao. Twitch, yes. Shaco, no. Why not? Shaco doesn't have the stealth time or the range/cc to pull that off and hasn't for years.

Shaco gave up being an early/mid powerhouse to be a good late-game assassin. Unfortunately that meant that he was garbage compared to other assassins until late-game where they both 100-0'd eachother anyway and half those assassins had a way to counter Shaco's engage and turn and kill him.

But now he's a mid/late champion because his Q actually has damage on it, even though his late-game burst is still missing out on like 200-ish damage from before.

All I want is for Shaco's Q damage to be able to actually be applied to his enemies a little later than .25 seconds because of all the stealth-related factors that cheese you out of stealth and make it miss or allowing Shaco to engage with E first if he needs to. It's not asking for much at all to have a 1-1.5 second grace period on the little Q bonus damage, my man. The fact that you "can't tell a difference" between the two Shaco's is because you don't play the champion and don't care to learn anything about him. That's ignorance.

He can! Just because you stealth from 3 kms away and lose your stealth, that doesn't mean he cant do an early stealth gank. Watch Shaclone, he does it all the time at level 4. Also please dont buff a 54.24% winrate champ with nearly a 10% pickrate. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Shaco/

ChickenWrap1 votes

Where does lolalytics get these numbers? Both champ.gg and op.gg say his pr is about 5 and his br is about 3. His current WR is about 52 and it's because of the Q damage nerf, not because of the ridiculous and un-needed window nerf

Shaco needs to do a full clear to his level 4. That's every jungle camp or every camp but one and then hope the enemy jg didn't take scuttle. That means you're not there to stop the initial first gank on top lane.

Yes, you can make it to lane with level 2 Q. Not with level 1 though, and doing it with level 2 is rare. So usually you don't see success until level 3 Q.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

Where does lolalytics get these numbers? Both champ.gg and op.gg say his pr is about 5 and his br is about 3. His current WR is about 52 and it's because of the Q damage nerf, not because of the ridiculous and un-needed window nerf

Shaco needs to do a full clear to his level 4. That's every jungle camp or every camp but one and then hope the enemy jg didn't take scuttle. That means you're not there to stop the initial first gank on top lane.

Yes, you can make it to lane with level 2 Q. Not with level 1 though, and doing it with level 2 is rare. So usually you don't see success until level 3 Q.

Because lolalytics has been known as the most reliable source when it comes to pickrates and banrates and winrates. Why do you think Irelia got hotfixed? It was because according to lolalytics, she had a 55% winrate. Whereas champion.gg and op.gg said 48% wr.

UnboundHades1 votes

i will take 2 sites with around the same stats rather than a random one with everything far off because you think its better

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

i will take 2 sites with around the same stats rather than a random one with everything far off because you think its better

Quality not quantity.

UnboundHades1 votes

so your telling me that 2 sites that had almost the same stats vs 1 with completely different everything makes it better because it has "quality" that cant be proven by literally anything

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

so your telling me that 2 sites that had almost the same stats vs 1 with completely different everything makes it better because it has "quality" that cant be proven by literally anything

Yes. Because op.gg and champion.gg rely solely on patches whereas lolalytics record every hour. League subreddit only use lolalytics. Again; Why do you think Irelia was hotfixed the same day she was released?

ChickenWrap1 votes

That makes Op.gg and champion.gg more reliable websites, if I'm understanding you correctly. Lolalytics uses data metrics from every previous hour?

Think about it this way:

If a website updates every hour and Irelia wins one game out of one one hour and zero games out of one the second hour, her win rate has gone from 100% to 0% in the span of two hours on lolalytics.

If only two Irelia games were played the entire patch, those two games, then Irelia would have a 50% win rate according to op.gg.

But you know they both pull their data from the League of Legends API, right? The APi that Riot made and actively watches? They wouldn't use Lolalytics which updates its shit based on what happened in the past hour, they would use all the data from each day since the patch launched.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

That makes Op.gg and champion.gg more reliable websites, if I'm understanding you correctly. Lolalytics uses data metrics from every previous hour?

Think about it this way:

If a website updates every hour and Irelia wins one game out of one one hour and zero games out of one the second hour, her win rate has gone from 100% to 0% in the span of two hours on lolalytics.

If only two Irelia games were played the entire patch, those two games, then Irelia would have a 50% win rate according to op.gg.

But you know they both pull their data from the League of Legends API, right? The APi that Riot made and actively watches? They wouldn't use Lolalytics which updates its shit based on what happened in the past hour, they would use all the data from each day since the patch launched.

No that is not.. that is not how it works. If she managed to get a 100% winrate in 1 hour she wont have a 100% wr, they're rounding it off with the other previous hours (I dont know how much I think maybe 6 hours or so). Also champion.gg says Shaco has a 53.5% wr. Are you happy now?

pryda0221 votes

{quoted}

Strong early - Lol. Yeah, good joke dude. Shaco hasn't had a strong early-game since his rework. Strong mid - Yeah, he has an OK mid now Strong late - Yes, Late-game is where Shaco is the best, but he's not better than other assassins.

His late-game winrate actually dropped after the changes, because he still came up with a net loss to his burst damage even with the Q buff in the late-game after the Duskblade changes. It made him a strong mid-game champion, able to contend with other mid-game assassins. List where he ranks among assassins he’s top 3 in just about any list overall and late game without certain supports it’s almost impossible to peel him

ChickenWrap1 votes

"It's almost impossible to peel him"

Meanwhile it's so easy to peel Shaco that any ADC with mobility can do it on their own.

Shaco has weaker assassin burst at almost all points of the game than other assassins do.

Shaco has no decent base damage ratios.

Shaco relies entirely on items while other assassins don't.

Hmm

Blınd Lee Sin2 votes

What bronze are you

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

What bronze are you

Lol the EUNE gold 5 flex guy tells me I'm bronze XDDD, quality meme dude (btw my main acc reached P1 last season and this acc is obviously a smurf acc). Dude noone likes Shaco, there is a reason Riot nerfs him as soon as he reaches tier 1.

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

Shaco is entirely manageable and most champions in this game are toxic. This has nothing to even do with his ratio nerfs. This is about giving him even the opportunity to land his Q properly like he's always had.

Dunno what you considered managable but before that nerf he was was 2 shotting squishes early before the nerf. His nerf was definitely not out of the blue.

Harden Stepback3 votes

Shaco mains will resort to anything in order to defend their free elo

ChickenWrap4 votes

I don't think letting his Q function as a spell is "defending freelo". Did you read the OP? I don't even care about the ratio changes.

Calabok3 votes

need more nerfs for this clown

saltran2 votes

{quoted}

need more nerfs for this clown

Agree

pryda0223 votes

Excluding level 2 Twitch cheese None of those champs have anywhere near the early game gank power without good lane assist. And out of that list of junglers only rengar late game is near shacos I once again exclude twitch cause he’s not really a jungler or an assassin. So continue to cry about Shaco being given reasonable balence changes

Colgate Gator2 votes

Because it's supposed to be a surprise attack from stealth. Walking around in the open for 2.5 seconds is hardly a stealth hit.

ChickenWrap3 votes

Yeah it's just too bad that he won't be able to utilize that for the first 6 levels of the game and then get cheesed by the way attacking from stealth works for the next half of it. .25 isn't long enough, 2.5 is too long, 1-1.5 is plenty good.

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