@Balance Team - So what is up with Ahri?

Mirage Night·Jan 22, 2015·19 votes·1,904 views

Ok can you please explain to me what is going on here? This is completely 180 with her approach from previous changes. First you guys reduced her mobility with nerfs to her Ultimate, the you wanted her single target pattern to be lessen by reducing dmg subsequent hits on foxfire and ult . Then you wanted her assassin pattern to key off Charm, all of which was to help her be a "healthier" assassin. Then you removed dfg. Which again for the long run is for the best. Now, however, you are completely changing her dynamic. What is the deal?

41 Comments

Guy Fox TeemoJan 22, 201515 votes

Because unless you haven't noticed the Riot balance team knows nothing about League of Legends and has probably never played the game before considering every dam time they've nerfed or buffed a champ. They fuck up.

Mirage NightJan 22, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Because unless you haven't noticed the Riot balance team knows nothing about League of Legends and has probably never played the game before considering every dam time they've nerfed or buffed a champ. They fuck up.

As much as I wanted to say this, I get that idea's can change. but they are really making a bad habit of these back pedaling changes.

KeevalroyJan 22, 201516 votes

It's a requirement that they're relatively high ranked. As to whether or not they can make intelligent decisions about balance (Ahri nerfs, Zed 'nerfs', removing DFG, Lee remaining untouched, etc) is a question I frequently say "fuck no" to.

Mirage NightJan 22, 20157 votes

{quoted}

It's a requirement that they're relatively high ranked. As to whether or not they can make intelligent decisions about balance (Ahri nerfs, Zed 'nerfs', removing DFG, Lee remaining untouched, etc) is a question I frequently say "fuck no" to.

lol

AlphariteJan 23, 20151 votes

Wasn't Morello silver?

KeevalroyJan 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't Morello silver?

He doesn't do balance, he only relays information and oversees what goes on.

BigIdeaJan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because unless you haven't noticed the Riot balance team knows nothing about League of Legends and has probably never played the game before considering every dam time they've nerfed or buffed a champ. They fuck up.

my discussion with one rioter who provides input to the balance team gave me the impression they try to be extremely analytical in balancing the game. my guess is they look too much into data that may not be entirely relevant.

Miku Hime samaJan 23, 20152 votes

my guess is they look too much into data that may not be entirely relevant.

Yes, this does sound like the most accurate analysis of Riot's current balance team.

Irrational changes, constant excuses about "tools" and shit... They're tunnel-visioning on these BS "tools" and have completely forgotten to rely on human judgment and common sense. I don't want a game created by machines, I want one by actual people.

BigIdeaJan 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mPKN90v2,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2015-01-23T02:36:06.259+0000)

Yes, this does sound like the most accurate analysis of Riot's current balance team.

Irrational changes, constant excuses about "tools" and shit... They're tunnel-visioning on these BS "tools" and have completely forgotten to rely on human judgment and common sense. I don't want a game created by machines, I want one by actual people.

it does seem like they feel the need to perform extra analysis beyond common sense, even when common sense might be enough. i dont think they're giving win rates enough consideration in making balancing decisions for instance.

Miku Hime samaJan 23, 20152 votes

I feel we're on the same page, but win-rates are amongst the LAST stats they should bother observing for information. It has extremely low relation to a champion's overall health. Only an EXTREME outlier is of any real significance, that champion has maintain both absurdly high win-rates AND pick-rates simultaneously in all elos, especially amongst the higher ones. Of which there currently are NO CHAMPIONS that come remotely close.

Even if someone so absurdly powerful were to appear, it would become painfully apparent for the players long before it showed in their win-rates. Ultimately making the point moot before it even has chance to prove itself.

Win-rates do nothing more than fool people into making false uneducated judgments.

BigIdeaJan 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mPKN90v2,comment-id=00010002000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-23T06:49:52.461+0000)

I feel we're on the same page, but win-rates are amongst the LAST stats they should bother observing for information. It has extremely low relation to a champion's overall health. Only an EXTREME outlier is of any real significance, that champion has maintain both absurdly high win-rates AND pick-rates simultaneously in all elos, especially amongst the higher ones. Of which there currently are NO CHAMPIONS that come remotely close.

Even if someone so absurdly powerful were to appear, it would become painfully apparent for the players long before it showed in their win-rates. Ultimately making the point moot before it even has chance to prove itself.

Win-rates do nothing more than fool people into making false uneducated judgments.

not saying win rate should be the sole or primary factor considered, but win rate to me says a lot about a champion's state. there are a large number of champions, who are played in only 1 role, that have under 47% win rates. when a champion wins 47 for every 53 he loses over the course of several million games, something's wrong with him. and the thing is, their underwhelming states are apparent in game and are also reflected in their pick rates. consider eve, tf, twitch, elise, zac. their inability to influence games is obvious, at least in my games, and is reflected in both their win rates and pick rates. so i'm saying, since in game weakness can be reflected in win rates, a substantial amount of consideration has to be given to win rates.

trying to optimally balance a moba with well over 100 champions in 5 different roles is understandably incredibly difficult. the best way to go about it is probably by trial and error and observing results. win rates are the clearest and most direct results available to the balance team, so they should be used, but it doesn't feel like enough consideration is being given to those results.

Miku Hime samaJan 25, 20152 votes

when a champion wins 47 for every 53 he loses, something's wrong with him.

Ya there's a problem with him: he got played in LCS and now bronze Vs think they can 1st-time play him in ranked.

Win-rates are a toxic stat that are only used by people too lazy to rely on COMMON SENSE or MATHEMATICS. The most recent patches (about 4 of the past 5) have proved that the balance team is putting WAY TOO MUCH focus on this stat and thus we have the watered-down shitty game-state that is present day.

BigIdeaJan 26, 20151 votes

except it's a reliable statistic when the low win rate is consistent across all tiers, which is the case with many champions. it's not just bronze tier weighing down win rates. and it's even more reliable when you see in-game how ineffective the low win rate champions are. i never said win rate should be purely relied on, as you seem to think i suggest.

it's not like i'm going, lee sin has under a 46% win rate, he must be terrible. you consider what he brings to game. 1. he has the first 10-15 minutes of the game to make an impact, since mid to late game, other junglers have more damage, have more CC, or are tankier. 2. his team fight ability is well below average. 3. his ability to make picks from mid to late game depend on the opposing carries making the mistake of standing isolated and out of position. He may be an annoying champion, but that doesn't mean he can carry games. you consider these factors and realize why his win rate is so poor.

so again, i'm saying win rate is an important indicator because there must be a reason a champion has a subpar or excellent win rate. no champion is consistently at 53% or 47% for no reason, so it's important to look into champions who have such win rates and determine why they have the win rates they do. this brings me to my original point. i don't think riot is looking into win rates enough and thinking about why champions are where they are because too many champions have such win rates, are noticeably over or underwhelming in game, and are not being appropriately balanced.

Pika310Jan 22, 201513 votes

... and at the same time, they're giving her playstyle over to Fizz instead. It's like they're telling us, "We don't want our players to use Ahri. I know, let's force them to use troll-fish."

Riot is so inconsistent on their changes and philosophies that it's absolutely sickening.

Mirage NightJan 22, 20156 votes

{quoted}

... and at the same time, they're giving her playstyle over to Fizz.

Riot is so inconsistent on their changes and philosophies that it's absolutely sickening.

Well, that is disappointing.

RifticJan 22, 20159 votes

The worst part is that they're removing her most popular playstyle (which also happens to be the very same one they previously reinforced with targeted changes).

Even ignoring the fact that they're flip-flopping 180 degrees from previous changes, these "compensation buffs" are a sick joke at best. There's no buffing going on here. Not at all.

I feel like I'm being both jerked around and lied to.

Mirage NightJan 22, 20155 votes

{quoted}

The worst part is that they're removing her most popular playstyle (which also happens to be the very same one they previously reinforced with targeted changes).

Even ignoring the fact that they're flip-flopping 180 degrees from previous changes, these "compensation buffs" are a sick joke at best. There's no buffing going on here. Not at all.

I feel like I'm being both jerked around and lied to.

I am in total agreement with you on this.

NarasimhaJan 22, 20157 votes

Ahri was originally meant to be a high mobility AOE mage. The problem was, no one liked playing against that. So it was nerfed. Then they decided to make her an assassin. Then assassins started stomping everything else. So now they're making her back into a mobility mage again. One can only hope that'll be the end of that.

Mirage NightJan 22, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Ahri was originally meant to be a high mobility AOE mage. The problem was, no one liked playing against that. So it was nerfed. Then they decided to make her an assassin. Then assassins started stomping everything else. So now they're making her back into a mobility mage again. One can only hope that'll be the end of that.

The inconsistency of staying true to a Champion's identity, is really annoying. And they call these "compensation" buffs. It all looks like nerfs to me.

Pika310Jan 22, 20157 votes

And they call these "compensation" buffs. It all looks like nerfs to me.

This is what irks me the most. There is no "compensation" being made here. They threw that word us, then make these standalone changes that are completely non-sequitur to DFG's removal.

They aren't even trying to hide the fact they blatantly lied to our faces. Their attitudes towards the players have already reached such a level of condescension.

Mirage NightJan 22, 20156 votes

{quoted}

This is what irks me the most. There is no "compensation" being made here. They threw that word us, then make these standalone changes that are completely non-sequitur to DFG's removal.

They aren't even trying to hide the fact they blatantly lied to our faces. Their attitudes towards the players have already reached such a level of condescension.

I am in the same boat. It really is frustrating as a player.

NarasimhaJan 22, 20153 votes

To be entirely fair, putting so much power into her E was an iffy idea. It forces the idea onto the player of "I should only go in if I land my E, otherwise my spells are useless."

Mirage NightJan 22, 20157 votes

{quoted}

To be entirely fair, putting so much power into her E was an iffy idea. It forces the idea onto the player of "I should only go in if I land my E, otherwise my spells are useless."

However, there is no compensation for it. literally none. Al they are doing is "trying" to update her mage style game play, and even that is piss poor.

EviIGreenRangerJan 22, 20156 votes

They should let Ahri keep her amp damage on charm if they are gonna be idiots and remove it then they at least better revert some of her older nerfs.

AurenJan 23, 20153 votes

My primary concern with changing Ahri's main role from Assassin to Mage is that general purpose mages are generally not competitive picks unless they greatly excel in one area. Mage isn't really a role in the game, it's more of a character archetype. The change to Ahri don't seem to meet that bar. She will gain a small bit of extra mobility, but to what end? It would seem to make her a better split/pusher roamer, but It still seems like Zed could still fill the niche much better if its required. The declared purpose of her last round of changes was to give her a more defined role, and now Riot has completely flip-flopped.

What will her role be now?

ChargeItDownMidJan 22, 20152 votes

[deleted]

Mirage NightJan 22, 20157 votes

{quoted}

They are reworking her back into her super popular mobile mage playstyle. If you think assasin ahri is popular, you should have seen mage ahri back in early season 3. She was a top pick/ban and even defined the meta at times. I ran the numbers and here are the differences between pbe ahri and pre-nerf mage ahri:

When ahri uses her full combo, she loses a slight bit of damage on her primary target (33 damage and .07 ap ratio), and .1 ap ratio on her secondary targets (she gains 30x2 damage from firefox and loses 15x4 on spirit rush, she gains .05 ap from orb and loses .15 from spirit rush). Her passive was also nerfed a little when it went from spell vamp to flat health.

In exchange for these nerfs, she has slightly better costs and mana, movement speed on her q, and better damage when her ult is down. She gains .05 ratio on her q, 0-20 base damage and .15 ratio on her w while losing .12 ratio on her e.

Basically, she is only slightly weaker than what she was during her mage build that was considered overpowered.

Which is what the frustrating part of this entire thing. The patch forecast was only indicating improving her mage style not nerfing her assassin style. It was assumed that her assassin play style was being nerfed already due to the removal dfg. This was only suppose to be a compensation buff to her not changing her completely.

RadiantWingsJan 22, 20152 votes

The most popular playstyle tends to be the one that works the best. When DFG is present, Ahri has the capability to assassinate targets. There was a certain target that she obliterated at the time (0 item supports), so people gravitated towards that. Riot was then forced to nerf her by implementing the charm mechanic to control her ability to obliterate 0 item supports without the current sightstone or gold generation items without landing all of her abilities.

You do not always want to enforce or encourage the popular playstyles. Kassadin was originally supposed to be an auto-attacker. Catering to the people that played him as a bursty AP (because that was what worked) only served to turn him into the unbalanceable nightmare that abuses Zhonya's and ranged attacks that he is now. He wouldn't be anywhere near as problematic if he couldn't use Zhonya's or was actually forced to melee for more than 1 hit.

LanofroseJan 23, 20152 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BsA62Rp1-one-final-look-at-ahri-before-her-changes-go-live

I explain mostly what the balance team are thinking with link to support in my latest post at my thread but to some it up they think Ahri s Mage-Assassin style is toxic for the game (even if its skillshot reliant) and prefer all-in Assassins like Zed and Fizz

I Don't agree with the balance team at all.

Pika310Jan 23, 20153 votes

In other words, assassins aren't allowed to require skill. It's either point/click damage or gtfo, apparently.

Poldy ScarecrowJan 22, 20151 votes

I love the changes. If she's too weak they'll just have to buff her. no worries lol.

KeevalroyJan 22, 20156 votes

If she's too weak they'll just have to buff her.

Elise Evelynn Shen Shyvana Urgot Zac are still waiting for decent buffs. Some have been waiting YEARS for buffs...

Pika310Jan 23, 20154 votes

Expecting Riot to balance this game properly goes beyond optimism. What you have is blind unjustified faith.

If she's too weak they'll just have to buff her. no worries lol.

These exact words were said about Sona countless times. It's now been 6 months and she's still the shittiest champion in the game. Where is your god Riot for Sona? Oh right, they're busy thinking up another new way to nerf her. Cause apparently ~30 weren't enough yet, her pick rate hasn't reached 0% yet.

KeevalroyJan 23, 20151 votes

They just want to make absolutely sure that she's never picked in the pro matches. Sona is boring to watch, they want more flashy and "fun" champions to populate the games.

Drunk RummateJan 23, 20151 votes

this wont be the first main champion i play for riot to completely rework for no reason. ill just find another one i like and play them instead, just like i always have.

its sad. i like ahri as an assassin, but i know for a fact i dont like her as a mage. ive been messing around with azir so i think that's where i'll settle on my midlane pick, and ive always got my riven mid but for some reason people seem to think im trolling when i pick that...

LongFur FoxJan 26, 20151 votes

Ok. Time to spell it out once again.

Ahri was forced into being an assassin by he existence of dfg. That item gave her assassin capability and that together with a little too much mobility made her a safe assassin without any real weaknesses. To combat this riot took down some of her guaranteed damage (fox fire and ult damage) and tweaked her into becoming a healthier assassin.

Now dfg is gone and ahri no longer needs to be an assassin. So now they can balance her around being what they originally wanted her to be namely a kity mage. Which honestly suits her lore and personality more.

I find it incredible and frustrating how many people does not understand or refuse to understand decisions and instead just calls riot stupid because they are changing their favorite champion to have a healthier playstyle.