The Separate Disscussion

Mirage Night·May 17, 2015·57 votes·34,615 views

A quote from Riot Shadow

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Ql5gi7Ah,comment-id=0000000600040000,timestamp=2015-05-17T02:24:38.177+0000)

Right, I should clarify - I'm only trying to point out the fact that those pieces exist. Whether they're good enough is a separate discussion entirely. It just feels really premature to me to say that Ekko's lore is lacking, and to get really angry about it, when we haven't even released him yet.

Ok, here is that separate discussion. Those pieces that exsist are far from good enough in my opionion.

Sneak Dog pointed it out pretty clearly

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Ql5gi7Ah,comment-id=000000060004,timestamp=2015-05-17T00:52:41.203+0000)

The Shurima event storyline was boring and had a very boring medium. Arisen was great but not really officially released, just put on the forums. Kalistas invocation/pledge told nothing more than the short summary. Scourge of the Desert was about Shurima and Noxus. Mountain wasn't much really, given that we have no context to put it in. The feats of Braum is a nice piece of character building.

I'm not blaming people for assuming this is basically all the lore we're gonna get for Ekko, only Azir and Sion really had more lore than their short bio. Perhaps we'll get it twice or thrice like with Kalista.

(Well, there's also Xeraths modus operandi and main motivation getting changed when Azirs story got released, which isn't helping things much from my perspective. On top of that, the first post-retcon event, Freljord, being all build-up and no conclusion where Trundle got removed and replaced.)

I'm pessimistic about Riots lore and I do believe I have solid reasoning. I'm not going to be excited about upcoming lore. You'll probably just tell us the same shallow character, and (more importantly for me personally) perhaps taking another old champion and changing/replacing it to fit in the new characters lore.

Regardless of it all, it's fair to wait for his official release before judging once again.

259 Comments

RiotRiot ShadowStormMay 17, 201540 votes

Cool, I'm happy to kick this off. First, here are the stories I was referencing in that post:

Azir : Arisen | Shurima Event Storyline Kalista : Invocation | The Pledge RekSai : Scourge of the Desert Bard : Mountain

Specifically, these champions did NOT get long in-client bios, but had these stories released alongside the champion's official release (which I'm defining as when we activated them on Live servers). I'll refer to these as launch stories.

To give an idea of how I personally think about these: I consider Mountain to be a story about Bard, presented in video form. It tells a story about how he interacts with the world. How successful it is as a launch story is the "separate conversation" I'm hoping to have here. Mirage Night, TerraRising, Sneak Dog, and others have all claimed that these launch stories are not good enough. I want to better understand why you all feel that way.

I'm going to assume that short in-client bios are here to stay; but I agree that we need to do a better job making all pieces of a Champion's lore available in one place. For the sake of argument, let's say we put a link in the client for each champion, that brings up ALL of their lore (and heck, links to related champions' lore as well) in one page.

(DISCLAIMER: I don't know what our plans are around in-client lore. I'm just using the above as an example to frame discussion around the stories themselves)

So, with that assumption made, here are some things I'm curious about:

What parts did you like about the launch stories? What parts didn't work for you?
Does the medium matter to you? Are there different mediums that we should explore?
What do you think the goal of launch stories should be? How do you define a successful launch story?
How much does world-building matter to you in regards to launch stories? Specifically thinking Rek'Sai here, or even Sion's Reborn piece which focused a lot more on the world around the Champion.
Is there other information we should share about champions at launch, in addition to the launch stories?

Feel free to answer some, all, or even give other thoughts not covered here. I'm heading out for a while; I'll jump back in either later tonight, or sometime tomorrow. But don't wait on me... respond to each other, try to elaborate, clarify, or even challenge (nicely!) each others' views.

And lastly, quick reminder that everything I say here is my own opinion as a player, I can't promise anything... the usual caveats.

Icestar1186May 17, 201570 votes

The problem, for me at least, is that the change to short (and I mean SHORT) in-client bios felt like the lore was being destroyed, not rewritten.

Look at Skarner. I will admit he is a more extreme case, but he illustrates my point quite well. Here's his old lore:

Centuries ago, there lived a race of creatures as ferocious as they were wise. The brackern were unusual beings blessed with the earth's primal magic, embodied in the form of crystals. Their kind knew of an arcane ritual to bind their life's essence to a crystal, communing with the magic embedded in it. With this power, the brackern thrived in the Odyn Valley, protecting both creatures and crystals alike. Despite attacks from those looking to claim the primal magic, it seemed that nothing could get past the brackern's defenses. Nothing, that is, until the devastation of a Rune War.

A vicious battle was fought near the Odyn Valley and the unleashed chaotic magic poisoned the crystals. The brackern began to grow sick and die, and no amount of defensive magic could reverse the effects. To avoid extinction, their only course was to hibernate underground until the wars stopped. The strongest, most intelligent brackern hibernated closer to the surface to awaken first and assess the world's condition for the return of their race. The recent mining operations and violent escalation in Kalamanda were enough to awaken the first of these vanguards. When Skarner burst to the surface, he lashed out in anger and confusion. Reason eventually won out over his anger when he realized that the agents of the League who found him were simply functionaries. Skarner was invited to the Institute of War to share the brackern's story. In return, the summoners told him about the history that his kind had slept through. Much had been done to curb the unchecked use of magic since the Rune Wars, but it was obvious that the world was not yet safe for his kind to reawaken. For now, however, there is a place where Skarner can use his power to change the world into one to which his kind could eventually return: the League of Legends.

"The humans have not yet learned to control their magic - what once was Kalamanda is now a crystal scar on the history of this world."

― Skarner

Here's his new lore:

Skarner, the crystalline guardian, defends the entrance to a realm deep beneath the shuriman wastes. The few who survive trespassing his domain describe a creature of terrifying intelligence, anger, and precision. What this merciless creature protects, no one knows.

Do you see what I mean? There's nothing left. Before, he was the first of his kind to reawaken, trying to make the world safe for more to resurface. The lore team complained about not being able to tell stories before the retcon. Well, here's one: What is Skarner DOING to help his species? We will never know, because as of the Shurima event, he now mysteriously guards mysterious things for mysterious reasons while being mysterious. In Shurima. What stories can you tell about that? There is less than what you started with, but he couldn't stay the same because Kalamanda is no longer canon, despite it being one of the only real stories the lore team ever bothered to tell. We don't have new opportunities. We have a few sentences that explain the bare minimum needed to tell us what the champion is. Not who, what. We don't know anything ABOUT Skarner anymore. He just guards a thing.

HellioningMay 17, 201545 votes

Specifically referring to those four stories...

A) Azir's stories are fine, but they raise questions, not answers. How did Azir get resurrected by Sivir's blood? She's related to him and magic is involved somehow, but how can Sivir be related to Azir when Azir's entire family died? There are any number of explanations, but we have absolutely nothing to go on, so there's no point in speculating. I remember a Rioter getting annoyed that we were asking for answers about that, instead of just speculating to ourselves, but we don't have any hints as to what happened, so what are we supposed to speculate on? There's also the fact that almost all of Riot's recent lore releases have been about new things, with the exception of Amumu's little video. They raise questions about a champion, but since we have no guarantee Riot'll ever get around to answering them, we don't really care.

B) Kalista is a spirit of vengeance. Offer yourself to her and she will get back at someone who wronged you.

...That is all we have to go on. A video, a short bio, and a long story, and they all say the same thing. Again, this is a problem of raising questions that are not getting answered. It's like instead of including a short bio for people who don't care and a longer story for people who do care, Riot just decided to make the short bio and the long bio the same thing, just one has more words in it. Invocation is more about the sword-wife that Kalista pacts with than Kalista herself.

C) This is good, primarily because this is a champion that Riot's primary long story concept works on. This also happened to Kalista and Amumu's longer lore, and to a lesser extent Gnar's, but Riot's been fond of having some normal denizen of Runeterra (or Rengar, in Gnar's case) react to the champion, to make them look larger than life, and make them truly worthy of being called a 'champion'. The problem is that these stories are actually about the point of view character; we empathize more with the narrator than the champion. This works for Rek'Sai because she's less of a character and more of a hazard, but none of the other three have anything explained about them. This shows us that their origins are shrouded in mystery to the average denizen of Runeterra, but we're not the average denizen of Runeterra, especially now that summoners are not a thing. We should not be guessing about every single champion that has been released since the retcon; it gets boring. It's like a series of murder mysteries that never explains the murderer; it just skips from one to another and you're still wondering 'Did the Butler from the first case do it?'

D) Bard's entire thing is being cryptic, which wouldn't be a problem if, again, I didn't think that narrative will never get back to him and therefore speculation is pointless. I learned more from having Rioters explain the video than actually watching the video. It's nice, but it's not something I can get my teeth into and analyze, you know?

And as for Echo...that short form lore is the worst I've seen since Rammus'. It's just badly written (it sounds like a elementary schooler doing a book report; it's just a listing of his most sapient features, with no rhyme or reason to placement.) I'm going to rewrite it right now:

A prodigy from the rough streets of Zaun, Ekko uses his invention, the Zero-Drive, to explore the branching possibilities of reality and twist any situation to his advantage. Whenever he's not experimenting with multi-dimensional probability, he can be found running wild with the other lost children of Zaun. He revels in this freedom, and whenever something tries to threaten his friends, he's willing to endure anything to defend them.'

Same basic words, just put together in a way that the sentences actually flow. (I removed the last sentence because it just felt like a tagline to an action figure, which is kinda what lore is reading as to me recently.)

The video, meanwhile, falls under the same thing that the Azir video does; it raises more questions than it answers. The only things it states are Ekko's abilities and his basic philosophy. It doesn't explain who the memorial is for, who he's fighting against, why he's fighting against him, etc. It just raises a bunch of questions that narrative will fail to answer.

Honestly, I don't have many problems with the launch stories themselves. But I want things other than launch stories; I want actual character development, not just character establishment. All Narrative seems to exist for is to write little story blurbs and cool advertisements for new stuff.

Baron of BreadMay 17, 20154 votes

You seem to mostly have issues with Riot keeping secrets.

I think that some of the secrets they keep are only really meaningful if they are secret. Take Kalista for example: You can tell she is a spooky specter with scary secrets. I think her character would suffer if we knew exactly why she is the way she is. As is, we can infer that she is Shadow Isle's (duh) and that something serious must have happened to her to make her the way she is. This something is likely a very strong form of betrayal and is probably not something she has gotten even for, since vengeance spirits tend to go away after they do that. She is in the Mordekaiser/Hecarim range of undeath, which means she is kind of a big deal and is one of the older undead, possibly from the Shadow Isle's transformation time. After that it is more or less pure speculation, but we have a strong idea about her story and character without the specifics.

I think that most of the questions around the less mysterious champs (like Azir) should have the information around to make those questions answerable if we really think about it (and we should probably be able to get multiple answers reasonably). For the more mysterious champs that are about the past (like Kalista), answers should be more speculative but information around their mysteries should be available in the same way that the less mysterious champs questions's answers are.

ZetaMay 17, 201510 votes

Kalisa's lore is ironically probably the easiest of the most recent releases to piece together if you know the story of the Shadow Isles and just buy Blade of the Ruined King on her. That's the kind of subtle storytelling but with CONCRETE answers IN-GAME if you look hard enough that shows that there is a story there, rather than bad writing hiding behind the blank wall of "She has a MYSTERIOUS PAAAAST! WooOooo!"

Baron of BreadMay 17, 20152 votes

We do get the idea that she was there and involved, but we really don't know what her role in the events were. Which I think is great, as that way we get to discuss what it might have been.

Also, we don't really know the story of the Shadow Isles, do we?

ZetaMay 17, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=00000003000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-17T09:27:26.215+0000)

We do get the idea that she was there and involved, but we really don't know what her role in the events were. Which I think is great, as that way we get to discuss what it might have been.

Also, we don't really know the story of the Shadow Isles, do we?

Actually, we do - they squirreled it away in, of all places, Maokai's updated lore. I know - took me completely by surprise.

The only things we don't know is what role Mordekaiser and Hecarim played in the story - but we know most of the Lord and Lady's story, Maokai's story, and can infer Kalista's story. Not incredible details, but two paragraphs of backstory is more than most big past events get lately.

HellioningMay 17, 201510 votes

That's the thing; if we're never going to get the answers to something, why bother asking questions? We can get close, but unless Riot just drops anvil sized hints that basically confirm something anyway, constant speculation just makes me tired.

Baron of BreadMay 17, 20154 votes

Why do you want the straight out answers to something? If you are told the answers you just know. There is nothing that can be done with that knowledge, it just sits there.

I don't want those straight out answers because that makes lore boring and stale. If we knew the story of the Shadow Isles, for example, what more would there be? Why would they ever make another champ from there? The story would already have been told. The Shadow Isles would be left behind to stagnate forever.

Without questions the lore has nothing to do. The lore would be over.

HellioningMay 17, 201511 votes

But if they are never going to answer the questions, why bother asking the questions? If I'm never gonna be told the story of the shadow isles I have no reason to try and figure it out because I'm never gonna know if I'm right or not.

There's a reason that at the end of every mystery they tell you who the murderer was; if they didn't, you'd find it unsatisfying.

Baron of BreadMay 17, 20152 votes

Why do you not want to figure out how you think the story goes? If you can get it so you can say within reasonable doubt that what you think is correct, shouldn't that be enough to give you satisfaction? I don't see why you need Riot to tell you whether you are right or not if you can show that you have a good answer.

HellioningMay 17, 20159 votes

No, actually. Randomly guessing based on a limited amount of information does not entertain me at all. I like mysteries, yes, but I like fair mysteries. I want to be able to solve the mystery alongside the detective, instead of getting the set up and all of the clues and then the book just going on to the next story.

I honestly do not understand where you are coming from here. What's the point in speculating over something that is never gonna be answered?

Baron of BreadMay 18, 20152 votes

Random guessing is not what I am saying you do. I said you speculate, you take what information you have and you use that to try and come up with the most supported answer you can for the question you have. You don't just say "I bet Jinx killed Quinn's brother", you say "I bet Jinx killed Quinn's brother, and the reason I think that is ___ and ___". Then someone else says "I disagree because ___ and ___", and then you debate it until you have fully developed each other's point of view and can see what the full evidence for and against your point of view is. Then you look at this evidence and say "Ok, I guess Jinx killing Quinn's brother doesn't make sense" or "I can see why you disagree, but I think the evidence really leans towards Jinx killing Quinn's brother".

The point is speculating and trying to develop the best answer you can.

What is the point of just having everything told to you? There is nothing to say about it, it just is. You just get to say "Oh man, I loved when Lucian launched that assault on Karma's temple" or "I really think that Zac is just kind of a jerk".

HellioningMay 18, 201510 votes

But they don't give us enough information to speculate on. For example, we know that Sivir is related to Azir, even though Azir's entire family was supposedly exploded by the ascension ritual gone wrong. There's a bunch of possible explanations for this; Azir could have a family member outside the city, or maybe the ascension ritual didn't kill them and just teleported them somewhere, or maybe everything related to Azir's backstory is wrong and it'll be revealed that Azir is just Sivir's dad in a bird mask.

We can't argue over whether these things happened or not because we don't have enough information to say one way or another. We don't have any mention of Azir having family outside the capital, or of Sivir complaining that her dad is crazy, or anything.

We simply don't have any thing to speculate on, so there's no point in speculating.

Baron of BreadMay 18, 20152 votes

Actually, it should be pretty simple to have an idea as to how Sivir is related to Azir. I mean really, yes all of Azir's family is killed in the blast. His wife, his daughter, his son. It would be ridiculous to assume the lore was just lying, that would make all lore worthless because they could just be lies.

Is it really not that hard to have a plausible answer for how Sivir is a direct descendant of Azir within the confines of what we have been told.

HellioningMay 18, 20154 votes

That's the exact opposite of what I am saying. I apologize if I'm unclear.

But there are MANY explanations as to how Sivir is related to Azir despite his family supposedly dying. Maybe they didn't actually die, maybe he had relatives outside the city, whatever. The point is we don't have any proof one way or another, so speculation is completely pointless.

RiotRiot ShadowStormMay 18, 20159 votes

Apologies if this is an ignorant question, but can you explain why it's important to you to know exactly how Sivir is related to Azir? What does that add that you find missing currently?

thePandevMay 18, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=0000000300000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-18T02:24:46.208+0000)

Apologies if this is an ignorant question, but can you explain why it's important to you to know exactly how Sivir is related to Azir? What does that add that you find missing currently?

To be honest, adding Azir into the game, and magically making Sivir related to him first draws my reaction of ''Ok?'' rather than ''I've been waiting FOREVER to know this!'' Why? Well because, Sivir was kind of already established as a character. No one really had questions about her, unlike the Ekko x Jinx x Vi x Caitlyn x C fiasco, like most people mentioned in here. She was known as a wealthy mercenary, and that's really all we ever knew.

Here, I will now commence creating a terrible short description (sort of a general example) on how revealing Sivir being related to Azir would have been a secret that you have revealed.

Sivir was a child of prophecy, meant to save her village of the Noxian invasions. By learning the truth of her ancestor once deemed a ruler, she will rescue her people. She has come to the league in hopes of learning the secrets affiliated with her mysterious ancestor.

See, now revealing Azir being related to Sivir would have been more of a reveal instead of a simple ''Oh okay, well that's new'' sort of thing.

Now, the reason on why Sivir's relations to Azir would be important to some people, is because Riot has never mentioned any connection to Sivir having some god ancestor.

No one ever really speculated on Sivir being related to Azir.

To put it into better terms, imagine you were a LoL lore fan not working with Riot, and another fan just like you, out of the blue tells you Sivir is related to Azir.

What would be your first reaction? Mine would be, ''where is your proof'', AKA ''how is Sivir related to Azir?''

So I see the question brought up of Sivir's relations with Azir more of a reaction to something new rather than a question lore fans are asking.

Hope I answered your question.

ZetaMay 17, 201514 votes

{quoted}

C) This is good, primarily because this is a champion that Riot's primary long story concept works on. This also happened to Kalista and Amumu's longer lore, and to a lesser extent Gnar's, but Riot's been fond of having some normal denizen of Runeterra (or Rengar, in Gnar's case) react to the champion, to make them look larger than life, and make them truly worthy of being called a 'champion'. The problem is that these stories are actually about the point of view character; we empathize more with the narrator than the champion. This works for Rek'Sai because she's less of a character and more of a hazard, but none of the other three have anything explained about them. This shows us that their origins are shrouded in mystery to the average denizen of Runeterra, but we're not the average denizen of Runeterra, especially now that summoners are not a thing. We should not be guessing about every single champion that has been released since the retcon; it gets boring. It's like a series of murder mysteries that never explains the murderer; it just skips from one to another and you're still wondering 'Did the Butler from the first case do it?'

Well, there's another big reason for this.

When they murdered the League itself, you had a bunch of people excited because it meant "Riot can kill Champions and end their stories now without worrying about still playing them in-game!"

But I can tell you right now - it's not going to happen. Or if it does, it will be done comic-book style, in that a Champ will be killed before a rework in lore and then brought back.

We get to experience lore from Mr. Nobody's point of view because the Lore writer swore that lore without the League can have lasting consequences.

You can't reconcile eternally milking a character with the possibility of irrevocably changing them.

So instead - we have to see the new lore from the point of view of nameless Runeterran goons we don't care about. Why? Because they're not being sold, so Riot can put them in peril, and have their "lasting consequences" they touted so much when they killed the League.

But I don't care what happens to "Noxian Helmet Bro Number 3" or "Shuriman Dude Who Got Fondled By Amumu". I. Just. Don't. Care. And I don't think most of the fandom and player base does, either.

You don't read the X-men comics to hear about the life of a pizza delivery boy who was once saved by a stray Sentinel blast by Colossus and then went home and went about his day, never once looking back at that superhero fight.

ZetaMay 17, 201527 votes

The whole situation is best served by a quote I once saw from a member of the lore team:

"We're not going to just TELL you every Champion's most important secrets."

My response is this - if an author doesn't tell you, you never know.

Hiding all lore behind a wall of "She/He/It has a MYSTERIOUS PAST!" and then claiming that there IS lore - but us inferior mortal players are not allowed to gaze our unworthy eyes upon it means that **there really IS no lore **as far as the we consumers are concerned.

RiotRiot ShadowStormMay 17, 201512 votes

The whole situation is best served by a quote I once saw from a member of the lore team:

"We're not going to just TELL you every Champion's most important secrets."

My response is this - if an author doesn't tell you, you never know.

Hmm, I struggle with this argument a bit. I understand the idea that if we don't reveal things, then those things might as well not exist as far as players know... but should we really be revealing these things right off the bat? Why isn't it acceptable to reveal them over time?

I can't help but think: is Harry Potter a better series if J.K. Rowling puts an appendix at the end of Chamber of Secrets, explaining that Riddle's diary is Horcrux (and explaining what a Horcrux even is)?

Or, maybe a better example - what if Snape's background was revealed in Sorcerer's Stone? He literally has a dark, mysterious past for the entire series, up until the final chapters. Would it have been better to tell that whole story at the start?

My gut says that revealing that information initially would have made the series much less interesting. Do you feel differently? Or is there just something different about LoL that makes this comparison invalid?

Sneak DogMay 17, 201516 votes

Interesting argument on Snape. I think it's relevant here that Snape is a side-character. You can't 'play as' Snape. It's not like players of Shaco will suddenly find out he's a very kind and good Demacian, that might antagonize them.

Dark and mysterious past works, for a while. Dark and mysterious character can backfire.

VerandureMay 17, 201543 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=0000000b0003,timestamp=2015-05-17T18:29:31.911+0000) My gut says that revealing that information initially would have made the series much less interesting. Do you feel differently? Or is there just something different about LoL that makes this comparison invalid?

The analogy is invalid.

Stories have a beginning and an end -- League of Legends does not. Stories have overarching and nuanced character arcs, League does not.

You cannot make the argument that you'll develop characters later when that has never happened in the past. Any and every time a character is retouched upon, it is conceptually changed, not advanced.

How about the other side of the coin. Death of a Salesman. Does it make the story less enjoyable when you know that Willy Lowman is going to die at the end? Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead, Romeo and Juliet (any Shakespeare, for that matter), Life of Pi. None of these stories suffer from keeping things a secret, because the writers are able to tell a profound and nuanced story that is more than just its ending.

NoraverMay 17, 201521 votes

It would be fine if you guys revealed things over time. The problem is, you literally never have post-retcon. Not once, ever. If you can come up with a single example, my argument is invalid.

I feel like Riot just saw that the community voted for Lissandra to win the war and said "Well shit, what do we do now guys? Should we just rewrite everything?". Apparently, that's indeed what happened, and now we're dealing with it. But we'll never know, because Riot doesn't reveal anything over time. Nor do they even speak to their community about lore anymore. The only thing we lore lovers are seeing right now is that lore means nothing to Riot (Contributes no kind of wealth), so they don't feel the need to pay a team to expand on it.

RiotRiot ShadowStormMay 17, 201514 votes

{quoted}

It would be fine if you guys revealed things over time. The problem is, you literally never have post-retcon. Not once, ever. If you can come up with a single example, my argument is invalid.

I'm not actually trying to invalidate anybody's argument in this thread - I just want to understand it better. But one example that jumps to mind is Sivir. During the Shurima event, we learned that she is actually the descendant of Shuriman royalty. To me that's a huge thing for Sivir, and answers the question of "why is this random mercenary a noteworthy character in the world?".

Now, granted - that's only one story piece, wrapped up in a bunch of other stuff (including the release of an entire new character). But does that count as revealing more about a character? Or do you see that differently than I do?

HellioningMay 17, 201519 votes

Considering we had no reason to believe that Sivir was anything more than a random mercenary? I don't really think that counts as 'answering a question'. No one was asking why we should care about Sivir; we cared about Sivir because she fought in the League. I guess now that the league is no longer a thing, we needed some reason to care about her, so I guess tying her into Shurima made sense. (It's still incredibly stupid but that's irrelevant to the current situation.)

If anything, Sivir being secretly Shuriman royalty raises further questions. How does she react? How does she feel about her great-great-great-to-infinity-grandfather, Azir? What's she doing now?

Combine 'was anyone actually asking this question?' with a bunch more unanswered questions and I'm still left wanting for more.

GinoSoldierMay 17, 20158 votes

Sivir being Shuriman is basically the same thing I wrote earlier about how no one could feel surprised if we learned tomorrow that Ekko just straight up saved the world from some random annihilation threat, or, say, was announced to be Irelia's long lost brother. We knew of Sivir that she was rich, she was skilled, and she was a mercenary. Sivir was reputed to be noteworthy in Runeterra because she could take on jobs that may have included facing off against people like Darius and live, for instance. It had nothing to do with her bloodline, and i actually preferred it that way. Pretty much everything else was left to the mystery zone.

It still doesn't tell how Azir's bloodline survived up to Sivir herself, and hardly tells us anything about how Sivir plans to act towards Shurima in the future. We know from her VO that she doesn't intend to stop her mercenary ways but that's about it. It's nice, but far from enough. More questions asked than answered, again.

Chromatic EagleMay 17, 201512 votes

We never considered her to be a random mercenary before the retcon. In fact, she was a famous one. She succeeded her missions, and was noteworthy because she refused a Noxian job to invade Ionia. At least she used to work for them until she refused that invasion. Then she became an enemy of the state and either ran and/or fought Noxians.

Sure, post retcon, we could ask why we cared about her, but we didn't have much reason to believe that part of her story would be retconned. In fact, before the event, I thought Cass would've added to her story. We're still not sure if Sivir has ties to Noxus vs. Ionia because we still don't have her bio.

Her being royalty answers questions we never would've asked. Now we're asking more questions of how she's related to Azir, and why she left him to do whatever. She loves money. Why not become Queen of Shurima? Yes, you can say it's a good thing we're asking these questions, but we once again come to the problem of WHEN it will be answered? Do you feel we should wait a year for this? That's if the tech issues are fixed this year.

Honest question, I'm not trying to attack you per se; but do you non-Narrative people read the lore? The old lore, with Judgments and JoJs. The new lore, with all of these videos. If you're going to come in here and talk lore with us, while you don't need to be an expert, you should at least be informed enough to ask thought-provoking questions based on that knowledge. It's frustrating to explain ourselves due to Rioters not knowing their old lore, and expect us to defend it.

RiotRiot ShadowStormMay 18, 201512 votes

Honest question, I'm not trying to attack you per se; but do you non-Narrative people read the lore? The old lore, with Judgments and JoJs. The new lore, with all of these videos. If you're going to come in here and talk lore with us, while you don't need to be an expert, you should at least be informed enough to ask thought-provoking questions based on that knowledge. It's frustrating to explain ourselves due to Rioters not knowing their old lore, and expect us to defend it.

Sure, I should probably include my background context here. I've been playing League since just after Cassiopeia's release, and I joined Riot shortly before Braum's release. I'm pretty familiar with all of the lore; I've read every JoJ, every Judgement, every bio, obsessively followed the Redtracker, etc.

I wouldn't say that I'm as heavily invested in the lore as you all, but I'm probably closer to your level of investment than I am to the average player's. I'm also invested in engaging with players, and I'm willing to wade into lore topics BECAUSE I have that background familiarity with it.

I'll admit that I'd completely forgotten that Sivir was incredibly wealthy and had refused the invasion. But honestly, I forgot because those details couldn't actually mean anything. There wasn't really any conflict or intrigue left there for me, and all I remembered was "really good mercenary".

Some of this could be personal preference too. For instance, I much prefer TV shows to movies. I like the cycle of "introduce questions, answer some, ask some more, etc." that shows leverage so well, so maybe I'm more forgiving of that in our lore?

DG AshabelMay 18, 201519 votes

Some of this could be personal preference too. For instance, I much prefer TV shows to movies. I like the cycle of "introduce questions, answer some, ask some more, etc." that shows leverage so well, so maybe I'm more forgiving of that in our lore?

I'm not sure how that actually applies here. None of the questions brought up by the lore were ever answered at any point, they were instead replaced by completely new questions that contradict existing information to an extent where we have no idea which parts of it are true and which aren't.

Not all of that contradictory information is from before the retcon either. Amumu is stated to be Azir's son by one Rioter and a completely unrelated person by another. Noxus is described as a city-state ruled by the Grand General in Reborn, yet the guy in Scourge of the Desert refers to it as an empire. Which one is true? None of us know. After Katarina and Talon's long-term story arc got flushed down the retcon toilet along with the Kalamanda Conflict, plenty of us doubt that we'll ever know.

It's all questions and mysteries. At this point, the story produced by Riot Games looks like you guys have no narrative direction at all, you simply push out whatever words sound impressive in hopes that it will sell you more champions.

That is not the kind of impression you want to instill in fans dedicated enough to visit your forums.

Jeddy017May 18, 20157 votes

I wouldn't say that I'm as heavily invested in the lore as you all, but I'm probably closer to your level of investment than I am to the average player's. I'm also invested in engaging with players, and I'm willing to wade into lore topics BECAUSE I have that background familiarity with it.

You know,it would be nice if some of your fellow Rioters who actually works on the lore had at least a portion of the sentiments you have in this state.

But I know,blah blah blah spoilers,blah blah blah saying the same crap that have been said over the last few months,blah blah blah wait till more content is released (and then only talk about that specific content).Yet they also often state comments about wanting better engagements with the players at the same time.

KING OF MASKSMay 18, 201510 votes

While we're on the subject of personal stuff, I think it's worth mentioning how valuable it is that you're here on this thread responding to us. The overwhelming majority of this feedback is negative (as well it should be), but the fact that you're at least responding is worth something. Thank you, ShadowStorm.

2nd FiddleMay 17, 201512 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=0000000b000300030000,timestamp=2015-05-17T22:06:44.209+0000)

I'm not actually trying to invalidate anybody's argument in this thread - I just want to understand it better. But one example that jumps to mind is Sivir. During the Shurima event, we learned that she is actually the descendant of Shuriman royalty. To me that's a huge thing for Sivir, and answers the question of "why is this random mercenary a noteworthy character in the world?".

Now, granted - that's only one story piece, wrapped up in a bunch of other stuff (including the release of an entire new character). But does that count as revealing more about a character? Or do you see that differently than I do?

Half a percent of the male humans in the world are descendants of Genghis Khan.

Have I told you something significant about those men, or have I told you something significant about Gengis Khan?

DG AshabelMay 17, 201520 votes

Neither.

It stands to reason that when a person from 800 years ago has four children, all of them start their own families and have multiple children, and so on and so forth, then basic maths dictates that 800 years' worth of new generations would eventually result in 35,000+ descendants. Therefore it doesn't tell us anything beyond reminding us that the man in question had children.

In a similar fashion, knowing that a person is carrying the bloodline of a celebrity from 800 years back doesn't actually tell us anything significant about the person. That's like knowing that your father's sister's husband's cousin's former college roommate was Britney Spears. A bit of pointless trivia at best.

I imagine that was your point?

GixiaMay 17, 201514 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=0000000b000300030000,timestamp=2015-05-17T22:06:44.209+0000)

I'm not actually trying to invalidate anybody's argument in this thread - I just want to understand it better. But one example that jumps to mind is Sivir. During the Shurima event, we learned that she is actually the descendant of Shuriman royalty. To me that's a huge thing for Sivir, and answers the question of "why is this random mercenary a noteworthy character in the world?".

The thing is, 'why is this random mercenary a noteworthy character in the world' wasn't a question that we had. It was a question you guys made up on the spot and then answered immediately, which is actually the opposite of revealing things over time.

In fact, you could actually argue that we already had an answer to 'why is Sivir noteworthy'. If we were going by the original lore at least, the answer was quite simple. Because she was the best at it. Or at the very least, pretty damned close to it to command extravagantly high prices. If anything, it's less revealing information over time by answering a question, and more changing the answer after the fact. The end result is actually net-neutral in information gained. We gain new info about Sivir but lose the info that was already there. Nothing lost, but nothing actually gained either. Meanwhile, any character who had an actual mystery to them have remained equally mysterious, with nothing new to report since launch.

DG AshabelMay 17, 201530 votes

To me, a huge thing about Sivir was that in the process of revealing that one completely arbitrary scrap of information, you dismantled the rest of the information about her.

In both of her original lore pieces, Sivir was a legendary mercenary with a nearly flawless success record and a reputation for nearly perfect strategy. She had strong lore connections to Noxus due to being hired by them a lot, which also gave her connections to Demacia because she likely fought against them whenever Noxians hired her. All that created an infinite list of possible stories - Sivir is now freelancing but is also hated by Noxus, which means she could be hired by her former enemies to fight her former allies in order to create a cavalcade of warfare drama. Whether it's her being recruited by Demacia for a cover operation or sought out by Ionia for uniting against a common enemy, she has massive potential for interacting with others.

But instead, you guys put out the Shurima event, during which Sivir the legendary strategist does the following things:

Blindly trust a noblewoman from a country that has a huge grudge against her. A noblewoman who is famous for manipulation and backstabbing, no less.
Limp around uselessly and gape in horror while her soldiers get slaughtered by traps, not once considering to change tactics or that Cassiopeia grinning with glee at every death means something is going on.
Get stabbed and die without a fight, only to get revived by her distant ancestor.
Aimlessly wander off into the desert that has since been revealed to be infested by ravenous burrowing void beasts led by some terrible creature the size of a truck. On her own.

You have sacrificed the character's entire integrity for the sake of one scraplet of information that, due to how it came out of nowhere and was followed up by nothing at all, so far feels completely arbitrary and pointless. It's okay that you consider it a huge thing, but I wouldn't consider it a positive one. I personally never once played Sivir since the Shurima event because it repainted her image from a badass leader and warrior into Princess Incompetent.

If anything, that reveal made me feel like I know less about the character than I did before because her behavior in that story contradicts her character as presented in the game and her lore descriptions.

Chromatic EagleMay 17, 201544 votes

Harry Potter is a story with a beginning, middle, and end. Character arcs are concluded, mysteries revealed, etc. We. DON'T. TRUST. YOU. TO. DO. THIS. You haven't concluded or advanced a single story since the retcon. Before the retcon after the JoJ. We're still waiting on a conclusion to the Frejlord event, if there even is one. We're waiting on more background regarding Jinx and Vi, let alone a conclusion, or Caitlyn and C.

You don't tell a story like Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, or Lord of the Rings. I don't even know why you're comparing your story to theirs because a book is a different medium than a video game. Let's phrase it like this; you're not Mass Effect. You're not World of WarCraft. You're not Mortal Kombat. You're not even DC or Marvel comics, and they reset their universes every 5 years. You do not have a consistent, reliable media that you're dedicated to improving in order to advance and conclude stories. You only produce new characters that MIGHT have vague connections to existing ones, along with a vague video describing them.

If your stories were anything like the ones I've mentioned, then leaving info out is fine. Some things shouldn't even be solved, at least not for years. You don't have that type of setting, and pretending that you do without putting in the work to make it as such pisses us off.

EngrailedMay 17, 201511 votes

I think your struggle with the argument might be because you're not looking at the right context in which the comment was made. Your Harry Potter point is valid and totally fair about story-pacing and appropriately timed reveals of previously unknown pieces of information. These are exciting developments within the life-time of a story.

But currently, the stories of ALL league characters are stuck in their infancy. Characters are introduced but then nothing much happens with them. Sometimes the story of a character is advanced through the introduction of another champion (Sivir via Azir, for instance). Riot has released a series of "Chapter 1's" and really started to develop some tension in the world (Freljord War, Shadow Isles vs Bilgewater, Shurima reborn, Void encroachment), but then that's it.

I might be an outlier here, but I actually really can't complain about the new reveal trailers. I think the animation is awesome and I really appreciate how well they introduce each new champion and explain their motivations. Now here's where I speak for everyone - I think if you polled most people here, the topic of character introductions is actually NOT the true conversation that they want to be having with Riot. What people want to talk about is 'where do we go from here.'

The death of the Institute was explained as a way to tell more interesting stories about the legendary champions that we play as in this game. Again, I'm probably in the minority here, but I was OK with that idea. However, my expectation from that statement was that we were going to see stories that advanced the world of Runeterra FORWARDS. My assumption is that all of these champions are contemporaries and thus can show up in the same stories together. Why not show us that?

I know we aren't privy to Riot's plans. I know you're working on another game...perhaps one with more story involved. Bioluminescence worked on Bioshock (the team that created Elizabeth) and is a senior level designer, but she does NOT work on League of Legends. Obviously I'm speculating because I want to believe that you're working on these 'Chapter 2' stories, one way or another. But ultimately I think a lot of the disappointment on these boards in particular comes from wanting to see these champions do MORE than just get introduced. Will these stories ever mature beyond 'Nice to meet you?'

TL;DR - I think the problem is not of character introductions but of nothing beyond character introductions. People want to learn more about how champions interact and what they are doing in the world in a way that advances the story of Runeterra forwards.

RiotRiot ShadowStormMay 17, 201510 votes

{quoted}

I think your struggle with the argument might be because you're not looking at the right context in which the comment was made. Your Harry Potter point is valid and totally fair about story-pacing and appropriately timed reveals of previously unknown pieces of information. These are exciting developments within the life-time of a story.

But currently, the stories of ALL league characters are stuck in their infancy. Characters are introduced but then nothing much happens with them. Sometimes the story of a character is advanced through the introduction of another champion (Sivir via Azir, for instance). Riot has released a series of "Chapter 1's" and really started to develop some tension in the world (Freljord War, Shadow Isles vs Bilgewater, Shurima reborn, Void encroachment), but then that's it.

Yeah, I think you've highlighted where my disconnect is here. Much of what we've done has been "Chapter 1" stuff, but there is little confidence that we'll do Chapter 2 - that much is clear from the other posts here. I don't feel that way personally though.

For me, I see a lot of Chapter 1 stuff going on, but I don't think it's done yet. And in my head, it makes perfect sense to say "let's finish the first chapter on everything, and then we can go forward". I don't actually want to read the next part of the Freljord story right now, because I don't have the framework of the rest of the world to evaluate it in. That way, when Ashe/Sejuani/Lissandra wins the war, I can discuss the impact that will have on the rest of the world.

HellioningMay 17, 201520 votes

It's been 9 months since the retcon announcement. How long will it take for us to finally get to chapter 2? I'm getting bored.

Jeddy017May 17, 201516 votes

Not just 9 months if you count the entire roster.Most champs have been stuck on chapter 1 for years.

HellioningMay 17, 201512 votes

Oh, certainly. I'm just base it off the retcon announcement because it's when everyone started getting tiny bios, yet Riot claimed they had finally figured out where they were going with the story.

Vistha KaiMay 18, 201512 votes

Not even that.

In 4 days it will be exactly THREE YEARS since Journal of Justice was discountinued - ironically it was called "Volume 1". 10 days ago Varus as a champion had his 3rd birthday. He was the last to get Champion Judgement. That's when retcon started. In 2012. Ha. Somebody remembers that back then the world was about to end at 21st of December? It actually started in May.

THREE YEARS WITHOUT ANY KIND OF PROGRESS! No, Freljord and Shurima events don't count as "progress", because lore didn't move at all. It's just changed the chair it's been sitting on.

ZetaMay 18, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=0000000b000300060000,timestamp=2015-05-17T23:05:17.921+0000)

Yeah, I think you've highlighted where my disconnect is here. Much of what we've done has been "Chapter 1" stuff, but there is little confidence that we'll do Chapter 2 - that much is clear from the other posts here. I don't feel that way personally though.

For me, I see a lot of Chapter 1 stuff going on, but I don't think it's done yet. And in my head, it makes perfect sense to say "let's finish the first chapter on everything, and then we can go forward". I don't actually want to read the next part of the Freljord story right now, because I don't have the framework of the rest of the world to evaluate it in. That way, when Ashe/Sejuani/Lissandra wins the war, I can discuss the impact that will have on the rest of the world.

So basically, what you're saying is that LoL's story cannot and will not progress until Riot has announced they're totally DONE making new Champions and will not add in any in the future?

You want to wait to write the lore for a game until the game is basically OVER and will not be receiving anymore major updates?

Sure, yeah, great idea! Let's put off new lore until the company goes out of business! : D

RiotRiot ShadowStormMay 18, 201513 votes

No, that's not what I'm trying to say. You're absolutely right that waiting until then would be silly. I think we can continue to add champions (with their own "Chapter 1") even after we start telling the bigger stories. For instance, the Freljord is reasonably established in my mind, but we could still add other champions to it (and we did that w/ Braum).

The key players now exist, and the central conflict is understood, which is the important part to me. I just want to get other factions to that point before jumping forward w/ Freljord stuff.

Worth reiterating that this is just my personal feeling - I'm not trying to claim what will or will not happen, and I'm not a decision-maker on how we handle lore.

DG AshabelMay 18, 201510 votes

We actually have no idea about the central conflict. We know there are some places and they are at war, but we have no idea where anything is going in Freljord and who knows what about each other, we have no idea what's been going on between Demacia and Noxus now that the Institute is gone, we don't know whether the Noxian invasion of Ionia even happened, and we have no idea how all of it is even standing with Brand, Nocturne and Fiddlesticks around.

All we players have is characters (most of which seem to have no lore anymore?), some conflict premises and a bunch of terms. Maybe you know more as a Rioter, but the players have no bloody clue.

TerraRisingMay 18, 201513 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=0000000b00030006000000070000,timestamp=2015-05-18T01:33:15.254+0000)

No, that's not what I'm trying to say. You're absolutely right that waiting until then would be silly. I think we can continue to add champions (with their own "Chapter 1") even after we start telling the bigger stories. For instance, the Freljord is reasonably established in my mind, but we could still add other champions to it (and we did that w/ Braum).

Well, I'm glad you clarified that before I finished my latest essay.

The key players now exist, and the central conflict is understood, which is the important part to me. I just want to get other factions to that point before jumping forward w/ Freljord stuff.

FYI, it's been over three years since the Freljord stuff was released. Three years of lore team changes, broken promises, unexplained at the time lore changes through reworks (Katarina losing her last name for instance), silence from Narrative, the Dev Blog and the most recent revelation that Narrative not only doesn't want our story ideas, they're content in continuing their silence while we shout at them in their ivory towers.

Three-plus years for Riot go get this stuff done and released. Three years, and NOTHING to show for it but more empty promises, lies, fake apologies and "tech issues."

Granted, you would have a point if there was a consistent, regular release of world building content from Riot. There hasn't been for THREE YEARS, except Shurima and one half-assed map of the Shadow Isles.

So, you're saying that every area has to get caught up before we get a resolution to the Freljord conflict? Bollocks. The company has had time, excuses or not. It's time to put up or shut up (and they've all but shut up.)

Worth reiterating that this is just my personal feeling - I'm not trying to claim what will or will not happen, and I'm not a decision-maker on how we handle lore.

You chose to dive in these boards with a high and mighty attitude, saying "Geez, guys... Wait until the lore is released." Saying "I'm not on Narrative" now is almost pointless. These boards are a cesspool of brutality towards Riot and frustration at Narrative for being treated like lepers instead of members of the community your company claims to be working for. And it's the entirety of Riot Games fault that we're like this.

StarlighteMay 18, 201513 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=0000000b00030006000000070000,timestamp=2015-05-18T01:33:15.254+0000)

No, that's not what I'm trying to say. You're absolutely right that waiting until then would be silly. I think we can continue to add champions (with their own "Chapter 1") even after we start telling the bigger stories. For instance, the Freljord is reasonably established in my mind, but we could still add other champions to it (and we did that w/ Braum).

The key players now exist, and the central conflict is understood, which is the important part to me. I just want to get other factions to that point before jumping forward w/ Freljord stuff.

Worth reiterating that this is just my personal feeling - I'm not trying to claim what will or will not happen, and I'm not a decision-maker on how we handle lore.

But.... It isn't. That is the WHOLE point of these endless anti-retcon threads. Riot has destroyed everything, and replaced next to nothing. There is no central conflict anymore. We don't know who the key players are now. We don't know where the timeline is or if all of these champions live in the same universe.

We know NOTHING about Runeterra now.

AbyssphereMay 17, 201515 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0lfN1fln,comment-id=0000000b0003,timestamp=2015-05-17T18:29:31.911+0000)

Hmm, I struggle with this argument a bit. I understand the idea that if we don't reveal things, then those things might as well not exist as far as players know... but should we really be revealing these things right off the bat? Why isn't it acceptable to reveal them over time?

I can't help but think: is Harry Potter a better series if J.K. Rowling puts an appendix at the end of Chamber of Secrets, explaining that Riddle's diary is Horcrux (and explaining what a Horcrux even is)?

Or, maybe a better example - what if Snape's background was revealed in Sorcerer's Stone? He literally has a dark, mysterious past for the entire series, up until the final chapters. Would it have been better to tell that whole story at the start?

My gut says that revealing that information initially would have made the series much less interesting. Do you feel differently? Or is there just something different about LoL that makes this comparison invalid?

I feel a bit ridiculous saying something as obvious as this but do you really not get that the problem people have with "Narrative will reveal stuff over time" is that... you haven't? So far there's been no evidence of you intending to reveal stuff about your champions and the world they live in over time following their release - you quite simply haven't done it. We don't know anything about Azir that we didn't know when he was released.

The reason people want to find out stuff upfront is because we don't find out anything over time. You can't say "but hey, stuff about Harry Potter was revealed over a long period of time so it's OK for us to do this!" when people aren't complaining about you revealing stuff slowly, they're complaining about you not revealing stuff at all.

The community don't need instant information, gradual release of information is fine too. But people are complaining about not getting the information instantly because there isn't a history of getting it if it's NOT instantly. Look at the Shurima event - there's been zero information about that region since that event happened outside of finding out Rek'Sai lives there. We still don't know anything about Skarner, for example.

The HP analogy is really bad. Your lore is less Snape in HP (relatively big character that is consistent presence in the books, but with somewhat misunderstood intentions) and more Snape if he appeared for 5 seconds in Philosopher's Stone to punch Harry and then was never mentioned again. Snape was developed as a mysterious character, but when Riot gives you half a story about someone and then never mentions them again, that's not developing a character to be a mystery. It's just a flat out undeveloped character.

Harry Potter satisfied its characters because the world was gradually built up through each book and the books were released on a somewhat consistent schedule. Riot's lore is more like releasing Philsopher's Stone and then having a two decade gap between each subsequent installment, or just not releasing the second book at all.