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Gangplank continues to be nerfed

WutsKraken··4 votes·744 views

Before my main post: I expect to get a decent chunk of hate on this post considering everyone's obsession with justifying nerfing a high pick-rate champion in competitive games, but hear me out

Really? Yes he does some very very nice damage (Love getting those massive crits on enemy carries hawhawhaw), but then you have to consider:

Gangplank has ONE shot to do a large chunk of damage before he must close into melee. Ranged ADC's easily out-DPS him in fights because Gangplank in teamfights must either:

a) Build a bit tanky to be able to fight in melee and therefore lose out on some damage b) Build full damage to megaburst with barrels but have to avoid melee combat in teamfights until all CC is used

Gangplank is a melee champ with only a little bit of mobility and his huge ranged damage is literally just that one shot and he has quite a lot of counterplay. Compare that to very mobile champs like Zed Riven VayneYasuo who can deal close to his level of damage but with a lot more mobility and arguably easier execution. Gangplank's advantages over them range from slight, to basically none

For the record: Yes, I'm aware his current PBE nerf isn't god-awful and he'll probably still be in a good spot after his nerfs, but this is exactly what happened with Sion andKassadin Both got hit with continuous nerfs that turned them from top tier, to situational picks, to VERY situational picks, to "Why play them when 'X' can do the same thing but way better and easier?" Gnar and Maokai are picked over Sion 90% of the time as tanks Ahri and Diana (Who was considered trash a few months ago) are picked over Kassadin as assassins

EDIT: Gangplank's PBE nerfs are harsher than I initially thought! I take back my statement of how he'll probably be in a good spot to how he MIGHT be in a good spot

23 Comments

SaltyKracka1 votes

It's more about his lane than anything.

WutsKraken2 votes

His new nerf applies more to maxxed barrels than rank 1 barrels and GP won't max barrels first in lane

SaltyKracka1 votes

His nerf cuts barrel damage in half at all ranks.

WutsKraken2 votes

More than half at later ranks. 40 damage in lane isn't as noticeable as 180 damage mid-late game

SaltyKracka1 votes

...I don't think you quite get the idea of scaling.

WutsKraken1 votes

Oh? Then explain because comparing raw numbers he's got much lowered scaling on his barrels but he still has his autoattacks and Q damage to be applied

Lugg1 votes

{quoted}

For the record: Yes, I'm aware his current PBE nerf isn't god-awful and he'll probably still be in a good spot after his nerfs,

Then why are you complaining? I don't think there is anyone on the planet that doesn't agree he needs a major nerf to the barrels.

WutsKraken1 votes

{quoted}

Then why are you complaining? I don't think there is anyone on the planet that doesn't agree he needs a major nerf to the barrels.

Read the rest of the post. He has been continuously nerfed so far since his release just like the Sion rework and Kassadin's return in season 3 worlds

As for those who don't agree he needs a major nerf: ahem there's ME and: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/8zRcieZb-gangplank-pbe-nerf-is-too-harsh

That thread is more a discussion of the nerf itself. He loses a MASSIVE amount of his damage during his powerspike. Personally, I'd like you to explain why he deserves such a harsh nerf. He may deserve a nerf but this harsh a nerf?

Also, I only said he'd PROBABLY be in a good spot after his current nerf because he was at least allowed to keep his armor pen. HOWEVER I misread the patch notes and turns out his nerf is harsher than I expected so I rescind my earlier statement and say he MIGHT be

Bleediss1 votes

sion is still viable and completely wrecks teamfights, he's just reliant on a good matchup to go against so he doesn't fall so far behind

ahri and diana were also never considered trash unless you count ahri mains QQ'ing about her 'nerfs.'

and GP right now is just too strong and beats so many top laners he needs nerfs, i doubt RIOT will overnerf him though

WutsKraken1 votes

I'm still essentially a Sion/Nasus main with GP as my 3rd/4th. I know about Sion's power...as a JUNGLER

As a top laner, he gets pooped on by a lot of meta top laners thanks to his nerfs. Yes yes, I have played sion top and it's definitely possible to win top lane as him but as you say: You rely heavily on a good matchup OR your opponent making a fatal mistake to allow you to out-trade them

Diana was universally considered trash in S3. Ahri was never trash. Re-read my post. I said Ahri and Diana are picked OVER Kassadin for AP assassins

And GP beats up so many top laners? You ever played any of these people vs him? Chogath Fiora Riven Lissandra Vladimir Pantheon Irelia Darius ?

These champs CRUSH GP in lane, Gangplank's only advantage over any of them is his mid-game splitpushing power and unlike them, his teamfighting power can be severely cut down by someone just taking down his barrels before he blows em up whereas none of them need to rely on such things as positioning on pre-placed variables

Bleediss1 votes

{quoted}

I'm still essentially a Sion/Nasus main with GP as my 3rd/4th. I know about Sion's power...as a JUNGLER

As a top laner, he gets pooped on by a lot of meta top laners thanks to his nerfs. Yes yes, I have played sion top and it's definitely possible to win top lane as him but as you say: You rely heavily on a good matchup OR your opponent making a fatal mistake to allow you to out-trade them

Diana was universally considered trash in S3. Ahri was never trash. Re-read my post. I said Ahri and Diana are picked OVER Kassadin for AP assassins

And GP beats up so many top laners? You ever played any of these people vs him? Chogath Fiora Riven Lissandra Vladimir Pantheon Irelia Darius ?

These champs CRUSH GP in lane, Gangplank's only advantage over any of them is his mid-game splitpushing power and unlike them, his teamfighting power can be severely cut down by someone just taking down his barrels before he blows em up whereas none of them need to rely on such things as positioning on pre-placed variables

sion really isn't that bad

yes he has some bad matchups, so? he deserves to have some bad matchups for how stupidly powerful his ult + Q combo is, that alone can win teamfights for his team if he's behind

even then he's still a tank in a tank meta and can still make use of himself even if he lost lane or fed a few times, which is pretty useful as i'm sure you won't be doing shit as many other champions if you get too far behind (cough riven)

now on the other hand of your list of 'hard counters,' against GP really the only notable ones are cho'gath, fiora, lissandra, vladimir, and pantheon

irelia is a pretty easy and straightforward matchup for a GP who knows what he's doing

and the rest are skill based, darius being the hardest most likely due to how you have to play extremely safe against him and how he's broken as shit right now, you still have poke and can hold the lane though plus use oranges to get out

now may i also mention that pantheon, lissandra, and vladimir top lane aren't even that popular right now? i haven't seen any of them in a while, especially lissandra who, at top lane, has lost popularity due to there being better picks that aren't nearly as situational as her

and forgive me for misreading, but a few months ago isn't S3, and a few months ago people did not consider diana trash, at all

WutsKraken1 votes

Maybe I should've worded better by a "few months ago", I mean around February where Diana was still a "troll pick" as a mid laner but she began to be seen sometimes as a jungler

I never said Sion was bad, but what I mean is why pick him over another tank like Gnar or Maokai? his nerfs have made him weaker picks than them by reducing his laning power and reliable shield. He's mid-tier now since other tanks in this meta do his job much better than him while having a better laning phase and more reliable initiation/picking power. Again he's not BAD, but I use him as an example of someone who was nerfed to oblivion from his popularity and is now inferior to other picks

Kassadin is a much better example and still my go-to example of nerfs taken too far

Also, I never claimed that list was a list of "hard counters", thats a list of people who do VERY well vs GP. You said he would beat almost anyone top lane which is false

If an Irelia can't beat a GP then well all I can say is bad Irelia. Level 4 Irelia can out-trade GP and can straight up kill him at lvl 7+ W max Irelia can duel GP and outplay him with ease

Darius can smash apart GP unless he's a really bad Darius or its a really really really good GP, Darius' Q and E range are close to GP's Q range but GP's Q has a cast time so Darius can run up to him. Plus, Darius can body-block barrels

Another thing, who the hell cares if they're not meta or popular? Don't pick say Maokai vs GP and expect to win because Maokai is a meta pick. Pick a real counter, in fact I'd say of all meta top laners, Gnar probably does the best vs GP

Pantheon isn't as strong a counter as before, but his early game power is much stronger and his late-game is underrated. People build him like a bruiser to survive for lategame. When built as an assassin, he turns into one of those "I'll die but I'll kill their ADC first" kind of assassins Lissandra may have disappeared, but I expect she'll return one day if top lane Lulu stays around And Vlad...bruh...I don't care if he's not popular, he's like Lee Sin, he'll never be truly weak, but never really be top tier

Bleediss1 votes

gnar is a champion who is extremely squishy and super susceptible to anyone who can 100-0 him while he's in his mini form, this is why my strange pick of syndra a few times has completely crushed him in lane, as well as why pre-rework fiora was a concrete counter to him

maokai is a champion who is somewhat tanky with large mana issues even with a mana item, he also doesn't offer as good of a teamfight ability like AOE CC, unlike sion and gnar

even then all these champions offer different things while also having cons different from one another, mega gnar's teamfight ability and sion's teamfight ability could compete, but would you really want to pick gnar into, let's say, akali, over sion? probably not

and yes kassadin was nerfed very hard, that's mainly due to how his kit is very hard to balance, as a hyper-mobile assassin is the opposite of what people want to play against

and i wouldn't strawman me saying that i said he would beat almost anyone top laner, that's not what i said, i said he beats many top laners, completely different, and if you didn't mean hard counter, then next time perhaps clarify because when someone is trying to argue how GP does have bad matchups if you say "ever played any of these people vs him?" then it's going to look like a list of hard counters

the thing about irelia though is that GP can quite easily just abuse his passive and keg and walk away back to his minions which irelia can't really compete with due to how hard minions will hit early on, even then GP will just casually eat oranges when she E's him and run away, irelia really can't do much here other than hope she'll get to trinity force and give GP a hard time, which GP can probably buy item 3082 and reduce irelia's amount of true damage she can pump out if she does force extended trades, irelia can compete at level 9 though as irelia does well even if behind, so the only trick to this is punishing her pre-6 and shoving her out of lane and not letting her force extended trades on you in a safe spot for her

while darius is a bit tougher matchup, darius is entirely immobile, all GP has to do is play safe throughout the laning phase and watch his positioning so he doesn't get hooked, as if he does, he'll be forced to use W to avoid the predictable slow from darius and run away, GP can seriously kite around darius though with his kit and set up ganks to where darius is guaranteed not a safe run back to his turret if he's too far into the lane

and it does matter if they're meta or popular, because that reduces the chance someone is going to counterpick you while also contributing as much as meta or popular picks, i mean, you're not telling me you're going to go pick cho'gath into GP when the enemy team has a vayne, right?

even then, champions like vladimir and lissandra have medium range and are very easy targets in teamfights due to how immobile they are and how they cannot be like xerath firing high damage nukes from a mile away, plus lissandra has fallen out of popularity due to this sudden tank meta, since tanks are actually hard to kill now, the tanks with good initiation tools like CC can compete with lissandra's power as an extremely high CC and initiation oriented mage, which makes her very situational of when you should pick her, as if you think about it, why would i pick lissandra, a typically squishy high damage mage, if i can pick a tank with around the same amount of teamfighting power (CC) for more durability and less damage, at not much of a cost, because my team already has enough damage to compete in a teamfight

WutsKraken1 votes

Looking back, I'm amazed a GP post turned into a debate over tanks, but regardless:

"GP right now is just too strong and beats so many top laners he needs nerfs" implies to me you do indeed believe he can beat almost all top laners so yes I think it was a fair assumption

Now then, if GP is actually able to abuse his passive and keg positioning vs an Irelia, the Irelia must not know the matchup at all, having played this multiple times from both sides I have to say this matchup is definitely in Irelia's favor. Additionally, if GP buys a Warden's mail he will actually LOSE trading power vs Irelia because armor does not help vs her true damage AND she doesn't autoattack much outside of sheen procs during her short trades making the passive really meh additionally, GP will not have spent that gold on getting damage or HP to actually mitigate Irelia's damage, a tanky GP is basically zero threat vs Irelia even pre-nerf

Having played the Darius vs GP matchup as well multiple times from both sides, I have to say Darius has to play very passive to lose lane vs a GP, he will win every trade vs Gangplank because GP's speed boosts are not the most reliable to escape a charging Darius. GP's new W isn't as good as before when it comes to trading. In fact, Darius is one of my preferred picks vs Gangplank because you will crush him if he builds squishy and if he builds tanky he will contribute very little in teamfights

And your example of picking pre-rework Fiora or Syndra specifically to deal with Gnar is an exact example of my point it doesn't matter if someone is meta or popular as long as it works, and Lissandra and Vlad easy targets? You may want to try playing them when not ridiculously behind. They have very powerful ways to avoid damage in teamfights while still contributing. Lissandra ulting herself does a ton of damage to the enemy, heals her, and keeps her safe from the enemy. Vlad has his REQ combo and W when the enemy turn their attention to him

Plus, you reinforced my other point EXACTLY, you can easily pick someone over anyone else because you know they will contribute more, although I have to say you're still really underestimating how much Vlad or Lissandra can contribute. Much like how Sion can be passed up for any other heavy CC tank. Maokai and Gnar have clear advantages and disadvantages over Sion (although your point on Maokai's mana problems is easily relegated...seriously stop spamming rank 1 saplings, use your mana to actually trade), but there are other tanks with AoE CC picked over him as well. Shen's global presence and AoE taunt plus his strong laning phase, Nautilus has more CC and contributes much more when behind, Sion's not very tanky when behind and will die before he pulls off his CC while Nautilus can smash his out quickly before he goes down.

Bleediss1 votes

before i respond to any of what you just said, please explain to me why i only see one match as irelia and eight matches as GP on your profile

WutsKraken1 votes

You realize that neither of us can see a big chunk of each other's match history right? On your match history I see you played 4 games in the last 3 days as Karma, Vayne, Janna, and Leona, before that I see the last game you played was all the way in January and I highly doubt you would just randomly come back 8 months later and be talking about GP and Juggernaut balance

Also as I told you, I was a GP/Sion/Nasus main right? And did you ignore my 5 consecutive matches of Irelia last month (technically more like 2-3 weeks ago ? Or did you not see them? 3 of them were vs GP whom I got very nice and fed off of before snowballing my advantage. Champs who like to try to poke from a distance and avoid melee trades like Gnar or GP are easy pickings for Irelia

EDIT: Hmm, ok I also decided since Match History isn't the most accurate I'll also LolKing since na.op.gg isn't working either (since match history is fair game according to you), according to that, in the past 4 days you won 4 in a row, then lost 8 in a row and seem to be on massive tilt after the Fiora game. According to that, each game you played a squishy damage dealer or a squishy support (I'm wondering where's the Leona game) except for Vlad and Shyvana. I'll completely ignore ranks, but according to this you like to play people tops and supports who are actually decent picks vs GP but your ADC choice involves squishy people who can get blown up the instant burst hits them. No signs of Sion, or any of the people I listed as good vs GP, heck there wasn't even a GP in your games the last few days according to this

ALSO: If you choose to not respond anymore, fine by me

Rabid Husky1 votes

hi gp main here now i totally agree gp barrels need nurfs but this damage is just to much its literally worse than his old e was if they nurfed it by say 50 damage and a bit on the scaling id agree cuz it nurfs the damage without making it useless

WutsKraken1 votes

Wouldn't call it useless. But this basically prevents him from 1-shotting minions anymore with barrels after Triforce for farming and his teamfight contribution is much weaker midgame when he only has Triforce and maybe an IE

Rabid Husky1 votes

it kinda is, the only use would essentially turning gunshot into a small aoe for teamfights and making it useless for dueling unless they're tank

WutsKraken1 votes

Actually, it still would work as a way to re-proc his passive and function as an anti-armor autoattack/Parrrley. Although GP wasn't all that great at dueling without his barrels anyway

Rabid Husky1 votes

good points but how often can you say non-tanks let you in melee range ya it procts passive but how useful is it when you can only melee someone by laying a ambush,i am talking about actually skilled people btw a good mage or adc can easily kite you and most melees do go tanky. as for the dueling exactly i wouldn't mind if this was more targets less damage or stacking barrels and each blast doing some damage like half damage every explosion first one doing 100% 2nd doing 50 and 3rd doing 25% but as is there good for speed boosting and procting sheen also for your previous post it wont affect his farm its his damage to enemy champs hell still one shot minions

WutsKraken1 votes

Personally, I'd really like GP's barrels to not do less damage on explosion since that's a huge source of his poke and teamfight contribution. In any case, yes any ranged person who has good reflexes will stop GP cold when it comes to barrels, I've seen it happen before so I think this massive of a damage nerf is too big. He already has counterplay to his high damage, I think he deserves to be rewarded for pulling it off vs someone who can easily kite him

Also, I forgot the damage doesn't apply to minions, so nvm he can still farm at least

Rabid Husky1 votes

i totally agree id rather not have his barrels do less but we can only discuss what we want and what ifs, riot got final say and exactly only slow moving tanks will have a hard time with his barrels or melee assassins that don't pay attention or cant burst gp down first would also have a tough time, tbh i think this massive nurf is to help assassins. don't worry man it happens and its easily overlooked when i one barrel kill a wave after tri i easily forget its the same damage as a big gunshot

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