I share Stonewall's views on Sion's current state

WutsKraken·Oct 23, 2015·121 votes·19,932 views

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxRI2mt6wkg

In a nutshell: Sion's rework moved him from basically trash tier to a solid pick, then he got Warwicked

By that I mean: He was in an alright spot (although in Sion's case he was in a very solid spot on release), then some extremely powerful items made him insanely powerful (Release Cinderhulk in Sion's case, Release Challenging Devourer in Warwick's), he got nerfed, his items that made him so OP also got nerfed, and he then returned to "meh" status

Sion deserves at least some of his nerfs reverted (and Warwick on an unrelated note) because his rework really gave him a true identity and feel. But then some really OP items broke him so Riot piled on the nerfs before nerfing said OP items, and then never reverted the nerfs.

I'd be happy to get back his 2-second triggered W, even happier to get old W values back. His E nerf was justified because of his crazy lane dominance thanks to that but his W nerfs makes it very difficult for him to trade well in lane and screws up his first clear pretty hard

185 Comments

LankPantsOct 23, 201552 votes

They did the exact same thing to Sej too, but the thing about Riot is that they're really bad at admitting they're ever wrong.

Jeddy017Oct 23, 201543 votes

Problem is that they don't want them "back in the spotlight" for the time being as explained in the recent Gameplay Q&A.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Time Wizard,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=vWEoZ6X0,comment-id=00440000,timestamp=2015-10-16T20:33:03.135+0000)

We tend to let champions like Sejuani (who thrived close to a 60% win rate for a while) level off after we nerf them in some way. We're not intending to leave them to die and be forgotten, but in the interest of keeping the live environment fresh, we don't want to rebound and throw more buffs at her, since she only just stopped being picked so much. She'll be back -- we're just trying to let other champions have some time in the spotlight!

I understand letting others get some shine.But I don't think that means we should just gut those in the spotlight & leave them in the dumpster.At least give them something for now.This also doesn't help the fears of "My main is popular & really good.Now they're going to get gutted & left to rot for god knows how long."

NichtHurzOct 23, 201540 votes

Wow...nice explanation Riot. Could you please destroy Thresh then? He's in every second or third game since he was released. It just really pisses me off to see the at least 3-4 champs being repeatedly picked in almost every game. Seju and Sion were in the spotlight for a really short time and I don't see how that comes together with balancing out the game if your only intention is to gut champions you actually don't like and then leave them in the trash for another 2-3 years. Absolutely great idea.

Ulquiorra995Oct 23, 201521 votes

Yes please. I'd love some of variety in my bot lane.

Also, I love how they state that they want to "keep live environment fresh", yet keep nerfing champs like Sej and Sion, then nerfing their items, and then nefring them some more with zero compensation while buffing Lee, Zed and LeBlanc after 2 patches of not being tier 1.

manbearswineOct 23, 201521 votes

{quoted}

Yes please. I'd love some of variety in my bot lane.

Also, I love how they state that they want to "keep live environment fresh", yet keep nerfing champs like Sej and Sion, then nerfing their items, and then nefring them some more with zero compensation while buffing Lee, Zed and LeBlanc after 2 patches of not being tier 1.

It was probably just a typo,they probably meant "we want to keep live environment thresh".

Ulquiorra995Oct 23, 20156 votes

Well, considering how often you play with or against this ~~overloaded piece of shit~~ champion, we are just a step away from being able rename support role to Thresh role.

SîcarîusOct 23, 20152 votes

This comment section must be full of bronzies lol. If you're struggling that much against Thresh, then pick Braum or Alistar. Braum and Alistar can literally eat every hook for their team.

Axis the DragonOct 23, 20156 votes

Honestly it's not a question of how strong Thresh is but how often he's picked

Like for real, when you see Thresh at least once every 3 games, he gets annoying real quick

Rubber JesusOct 23, 20153 votes

I agree with you. His kit is rather overloaded. And Thresh has been a consistent pick since release.

I don't think they should be necessarily nerfed, that's not at all what I think. But some parts of the kits should be removed (particularly passives that require no skill) and the power they lost should be placed in the other abilities, not passives, that require skill to use. For instance, I just don't think the passive on his E fits his kit. He's a support, not a damage dealer. No need to give bonus AD on his AAs imo. Take that away, and add strength to his shield (maybe shields two champions so it wouldn't be too oppressive in laning but adds some power to ganks and teamfights early on?).

Take away Zed's 25% bonus AD, and add that ratio to his abilities. Or give him another ability that requires skill, that is equivalent in power. Since he has decreasing energy costs as he levels, why does he have a passive that restores energy? Doesn't that negate his early, high energy costs meant to decrease early power? Rework that whole ability imo, and give him some kind of power there that isn't passive. Although the energy passive does require skill, it can stay, but his energy costs should remain relatively the same.

Remove Yasuo's double crit passive, and move it to his ult where the armor pen is (I don't like it at all due to it's passive, OP, power spike nature but it looks like it isn't going anywhere) and then make his Wind resource meaningful again by increasing power in his shield.

Some champions have good passives, that are needed, but I don't see the point of them on champions with such powerful kits without them. Passives like those above have no counterplay, sometimes don't fit the kit, are hard to balance around, and give the players no chance to make a meaningful decision in regards to play.

Edit: Note Annie's passive: her stun actually requires meaningful decision making to use to it's full potential. This is good. Opponents can counterplay by watching for it to proc. You don't have those things on double crit, 25% bonus AD, or % extra bonus damage on AA for a support.

SîcarîusOct 23, 20154 votes

They have destroyed Thresh lol. In pro play, when he is picked, his team generally loses. Thresh is honestly one of the more balanced champs atm. How so? Sure he has tons of utility, but he's not nearly as tanky as other supports(Braum, Alistar, Leona) and his damage is nowhere near that of other supports(Annie, Blitzcrank). The reason why Thresh is picked is because he is FUN to play. You can do crazy shit with him if you're good, but you look like a complete scrub if you're bad. This is a VERY appealing champion design to anybody who strives to be 'good' at the game. The last thing I want to see is another Blitzcrank nerfs because 'baddies can't dodge hook'. Blitzcrank and Thresh are the literal definition of 'high risk; high reward'. They could make Thresh have 0 damage on every ability, and people would still pick him because his design is beautiful. It's the same thing with Lee Sin. Even after Riot gutted Lee Sin, people still spammed him. Why? Playing Lee Sin well makes you look like a bad ass.

Guyy FieriOct 23, 20153 votes

Thresh is always in the spotlight because his kit is so strong. It doesn't matter what the ratios are or anything really, that utility is just so strong that unless his whole lot was reworked, you wouldn't see that happen

BleedissOct 23, 20154 votes

{quoted}

They did the exact same thing to Sej too, but the thing about Riot is that they're really bad at admitting they're ever wrong.

sejuani isn't weak

she's weaker than her previous pick/ban state, but she isn't weak

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20154 votes

She is currently a worse Amumu though. Worse clear, less damage, squishier, and just riskier due to your engage being attached to ult. If Amumu misses bandage it's no big deal but if sej wiffs ult.....riperoni. her earlyganks may be better but she will stay half health or lower after every clear.

RozzetaOct 24, 20153 votes

Even worse actually. In the balance team AMA, one of the Rioters openly admitted they were not going to adjust Sej because she already had her moment and now they wanted to see other junglers under the spotlight.

SaiannaOct 23, 201524 votes

I've watched Stonewalls Sion yesterday and couldn't shake this feeling he was kind of useless champion.

For a Juggernaut to have all of his power located in Q. damage from AA is unreliable and ultimate so easy to miss..

ReQnosisOct 23, 201526 votes

Why are you bringing up Morde in a Sion threa... ohhhhh, nvm. ;3

SaiannaOct 23, 201510 votes

I see what you did there >.>

BastionKrossOct 23, 201514 votes

His entire kit is full of unreliable and easily counterplay-able mechanics.

P: Any kind of cc, even the lowliest slow, will render his passive completely useless. As will any sort of mobility. But how many champions have either one of those? /sarcasm

Q: Even a half charge takes a long time in a fight, and everyone can clearly see exactly where Sion's axe is going to land. When Chogath looks at your Q and goes "Damn boy, that's telegraphed" you know there's a problem. He can't even move while he's doing it, like a Darius can.

W: Look, he's got a shield that does %HP damage when it pops, whatever shall we do? Oh right, let's just pop his shield before he can. This is especially easy after the nerf that extended the time Sion has to have the shield active before being able to pop it himself.

E: When your most reliable spell has you bowling with minions, that's a red flag.

R: Hey, what's that global noise? Does the entire map really need to be informed when Sion ults? And what is this "steering" that you speak of? I don't expect him to turn on a dime like Rammus , but for the love of god he's hard to control. When a lot of players prefer to use the ult at point blank range because of how wonky it is to control over even short distances, that's no good.

Sion's kit needs a rework to make it more reliable. Counterplay is fine, but this shows what happens when it goes too far.

SîcarîusOct 23, 20157 votes

Uh, his kit is fine. Landing his shit is VERY rewarding. Oh you landed your ultimate? TONS of damage + a knock up into basically a free Q(Another knock up). His Q is a knock up that deals tons of damage, or slows if you proc it early. His E slows you and reduces your armor(GREAT for peeling for your adc or diving a champ with an assassin). His W gives him a shield, which FORCES the enemy team to spend time hitting you. Oh, and if you do manage to kill him, you basically have to run away/kite his passive because it WILL murder you.

TL;DR I'm not saying he's OP, but he's not bad by any means.

TaigongwangOct 23, 20152 votes

His abilities are awkward to use in a team fight right now, with the exception of his ult being used point blank, and it makes him somewhat unreliable past the laning phase. Thats more of what Bastion was getting at. Other juggernauts dont have the CC power he has, but his abilities delays and awkward usage are what make him bad currently.

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20154 votes

It should feel rewarding to hit your abilities yes but the probability of you hitting your ult on more than 1-2 people (not even considering who you hit since you will most likely be hitting a tank sorry) is so very slim that it is not worth playing Sion since chances are he will be your only form of super hard engage if he is top lane (tank junglers are not as common anymore so chances are they will not fill this role and supports typically peel so that leaves mid and adc........I guess there is Ashe?). Even if you are running double tank (Sion+some tanky jungler like Amumu/Sej/Malph/Naut/etc.) you will most likely lack the damage to really capitalize on the chain CC that is very combo oriented in order to win fights. If you can land some hard cc elsewhere and then Sion follows up it is easy to land the ult and win the fight but he should not be that pigeonhole'd into a supporting role as an initiator to have sufficient results.

RalanrOct 23, 20153 votes

The Q wind up does have weaknesses. His weakness to CC actually makes me wonder why people say he counters . Sure you have late game, but by that logic everything counters Pantheon.

I agree with Stonewall on the passive, it is rarely useful. People who know about the passive will run away from Sion when he dies (I might just suck, but the speed boost doesn't help enough) or CC/kit him. People who don't know of it will fall for it once, then remember to not be near him upon death. So far the best use for his passive I have found is emergency destruction. If I get killed under a turret, I'll just focus the turret rather than waste an attempt to get another kill. At least then I'll have brought it down a little more if I did not destroy it.

RiotRiot KeyseritoOct 23, 201524 votes

Pretty much all of Darius' power in laning phase relies on his Q, Garen's relies on his E, etc. All the juggernauts pretty much tank and use one or two abilities to make them viable. In Sion's case, it's a mix between his Q and ult/passive.

LeeDarkOct 23, 201548 votes

Yet both Darius and Garen have strong, reliable ults. Sion doesn't. So it isn't just a case of Darius and Garen relying on one ability where Sion relies on one and a little bit of two others. No. Garen and Darius both rely on one ability with a good ult to back it up, while Sion relies on one UNRELIABLE ability, and UNRELIABLE ult, and has to DIE to make use of his passive.

Joe DreddOct 23, 20155 votes

Sion's ult is far more game changing though.

JacobofcourseOct 23, 201521 votes

I wouldn't say Sion's ulti is more game changing. It is certainly more versatile. This is because Sion can use his as an escape, engage, or crowd control. While Garen and Darius are very aggressive ulti's. Garen's ulti can destroy tank complete changing a fight and Darius can go from 0 kills to 5 kills easily with the bleed stacks and resets from his ulti.

Joe DreddOct 23, 20152 votes

If you land a good ult you just win end of story

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20155 votes

Same with Darius and Garen though.....except it will happen way more frequently due to them being way more reliable and not require you to engage from halfway across the map for maximum effectiveness. Also garen and Darius ults don't auto lose to any dash or flash (speaking of wish I think sion should be able to flash during ult like rammus powerball but that is just a thought).

Penta PenguinOct 23, 20158 votes

You don't "land" your ults with Garen and Darius. They'e fight-closers after you've already won doing something else

LeeDarkOct 23, 20156 votes

Wrong. Darius' ult is now a fight starter. He wants to catch out a squishy support, execute, and start spreading instant 5 stacks. The fight isn't over when he ults... it's only just begun. Garen charges one of your most valuable people, someone who has been getting kills, chunks them, and executes, taking a valuable member of the team out easily at the beginning of a fight.

But you are right... you don't "land" those ults. They're given to you on a silver fucking platter. Sion actually requires skill, and any competent opponent can negate that most of the time because Sion's ult isn't even that fast. It is a better ult when it lands, and it is more versatile, but all of that is already covered under the "high skill floor" part of it.

Sion is just as easily kited as the other juggernauts, and even if he catches up to you, he loses to dash or flash just as easily. Worse, he's the only juggernauts that actually loses trades even if he sticks to you, thanks to the nerf on his W and E. All we want is ONE of those nerfs reverted. Not even the E nerf, because that would still be justified.

Kuroi86Oct 23, 20152 votes

So mostly just making his abilities and ult a little more reliable. His passive I've never had much issue with except the MS/AS caps placed on it. =/

SugarNipsOct 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Keyserito,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RGn7L3Eo,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2015-10-23T17:01:43.780+0000)

Pretty much all of Darius' power in laning phase relies on his Q, Garen's relies on his E, etc. All the juggernauts pretty much tank and use one or two abilities to make them viable. In Sion's case, it's a mix between his Q and ult/passive.

Even though Darius and other juggernauts are brought up in this thread, i really feel like Sion doesnt fit into this category. Juggernauts are described as being able to have kill pressure on a carry if they are able to close the distance. Tanks on the other hand are there to soak damage and provide crowd control, which is exactly what Sion's purpose is and should be compared to.

Janna Me FiddleOct 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Even though Darius and other juggernauts are brought up in this thread, i really feel like Sion doesnt fit into this category. Juggernauts are described as being able to have kill pressure on a carry if they are able to close the distance. Tanks on the other hand are there to soak damage and provide crowd control, which is exactly what Sion's purpose is and should be compared to.

Sion is supposed to create kill pressure from his R, he's supposed to be able to get in easily onto the back line and pose a huge threat, but that's the problem. his kill pressure comes exclusively from his R, whereas Darius'es pressure comes from his hook (E) while his R might be an extremely effective clean up tool, it's the picks he creates from well positioned hooks that applies the real pressure.

If anything, Sion needs pressure in his basic kit, he used to have it pre-rework in the form of his stun, I'd change his Roar of the Slayer to have terror instead of a slow to give him that much needed pressurizing element outside his R, have it work like Tryns that if the enemy is facing away, they are stricken with Terror, if facing him they are given the current armor reduction, minus the slow.

Doing just that would probably bring him into line with other Juggernauts without actually having to buff anything else in his kit.

Edit: The terror would also make his R much more reliable as a follow up to engage on a poke comp. Roar as they try to disengage, R straight to the ADC then you can go for your Q, Sions issue is reliability in creating opportunities, I'd never ask for CC on someone without thinking it through, in Sions case his lack of hard CC is what makes him so unreliable (and please don't say his knock up from Q, nobody is going to stay in the area long enough to get Q'ed, at best you're going to land the slow from Q, not the knock up)

SugarNipsOct 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna Me Fiddle,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RGn7L3Eo,comment-id=0005000300080000,timestamp=2015-10-23T20:15:31.547+0000)

Sion is supposed to create kill pressure from his R, he's supposed to be able to get in easily onto the back line and pose a huge threat, but that's the problem. his kill pressure comes exclusively from his R, whereas Darius'es pressure comes from his hook (E) while his R might be an extremely effective clean up tool, it's the picks he creates from well positioned hooks that applies the real pressure.

If anything, Sion needs pressure in his basic kit, he used to have it pre-rework in the form of his stun, I'd change his Roar of the Slayer to have terror instead of a slow to give him that much needed pressurizing element outside his R, have it work like Tryns that if the enemy is facing away, they are stricken with Terror, if facing him they are given the current armor reduction, minus the slow.

Doing just that would probably bring him into line with other Juggernauts without actually having to buff anything else in his kit.

Edit: The terror would also make his R much more reliable as a follow up to engage on a poke comp. Roar as they try to disengage, R straight to the ADC then you can go for your Q, Sions issue is reliability in creating opportunities, I'd never ask for CC on someone without thinking it through, in Sions case his lack of hard CC is what makes him so unreliable (and please don't say his knock up from Q, nobody is going to stay in the area long enough to get Q'ed, at best you're going to land the slow from Q, not the knock up)

thats not really kill pressure though, thats a tank locking someone down to get killed, like malp or maokai.

Janna Me FiddleOct 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

thats not really kill pressure though, thats a tank locking someone down to get killed, like malp or maokai.

Whereas Darius creates that same pressure through a E > W > Q

Pulls, slows, stacks.

Whereas atm Sion:

-Has a charge that is easily sidestepped. -Has an extremely telegraphed and easily avoided knock up/slow which 8/10 times you're just going to let it off for the slow portion only -Has a shout armor debuff that slows. -Has a shield that he can detonate (Kill pressure)

So he's not a "Tank" because he has well...light CC or easy to evade CC.

He's more a Juggernaut but lacks kill pressure because his shield detonation isn't as it used to be, pre-rework with Sion you could stun, run up and detonate the shield, now you rely on light CC to get close enough to do it.

So what do they want him to be?

A Tank? Well you better give him some reliable lock down or he's going to keep failing that job. A Juggernaut? Better give him some way to better utilize his kill pressure.

That's why I'm thinking along the lines of his shout having a Terror effect if the opponents turn their back to him, this fulfills the reliable CC criteria and depending on the duration, also fulfills kill pressure creation.

ULTRAF0RCEOct 23, 20154 votes

Sion isn't a juggernaut though he is a tank.

Janna Me FiddleOct 23, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Sion isn't a juggernaut though he is a tank.

Which makes zero sense both thematically and play style wise.

His entire backstory screams Juggernaut, his Kit screams Juggernaut. Yet he's treated like Shen, Leona and Braum.

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20152 votes

Juggernauts do mainly reliable damage with mediocre cc (almost all soft cc) once they get in range of someone. Sion has unreliable damage and hard cc that is also unreliable due to how super telegraphed it is. The only juggernaut-esque ability Sion has is his passive which is very lackluster unless you for some odd reason are running a frozen mallet (which his passive should just have built into to kind of make it worthwhile since you will still get cc'd when you revive but you won't auto lose to someone simply running from you that or just make his passive active ability make you slow immune or something since right now a 1% slow can make it so you just will never catch anyone unless they are literally teabagging your corpse before you revive).

Only Play DariusOct 23, 20159 votes

Unfortunately this issue of double-buffing double-nerfing keeps happening. Same with Sejuani , she was in a very bad spot before Cinderhulk so Riot gave her a bunch of number tweaks 2 patches before Cinderhulk to help her out for the time being. As a result she became overbearing when Cinderhulk released and Riot ended up nerfing the shit out of her numbers 2 patches BEFORE nerfing Cinderhulk, leaving her in a poor state once again.

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 23, 20158 votes

If his passive reinforced his tank role or gave him some manner of benefit it would be nice. Right now it has zero conduciveness with how you'd normally build Sion. It favors on-hit/auto attacking builds versus the hardcore tank-and-spank items you get on Sion.

While it may not fix all his problems, having a passive that functions in situations beyond "Died in a teamfight" I think it'd be nice. Alternatively, lose the lifesteal and make post-death Sion's autos have some sort of CC or crowd control functionality to them.

ScoroctOct 23, 20151 votes

while it wont stop things with dashes or that are super fast, build frozen mallet on sion, it gives some reliable cc normally, and combined with ur passive makes u surprisingly sticky if they dont have multiple dashes

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 23, 20153 votes

I'm dropping almost 3k gold on an item for when I die.

That is not good at all.

Auz the RipperOct 23, 20152 votes

The slow helps land your Q, your W (if they didn't pop it), and your E Plus the health adds a nice amount to your shield and the bit of AD feeds into your scalings. The slow also gives Sion more peel for his team

It's not only helpful in zombie rampage mode

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 23, 20153 votes

No, it's pretty much only helpful in Zombie mode.

What's Sion doing in a teamfight?

Charging his Q and being a threat.
Massive HP shield that doubles as a burst damage if you don't remove it.
Screaming.
Ulting into a fight.

Very, VERY rarely is Sion auto-attacking. Much less auto-attacking at a consistent enough rate to justify the item. You want HP, you get warmogs/randuins/banshees. You want damage, you get Maw/Black Cleaver/Sunfire/Titanic. Frozen Mallet is just a trash item on him unless your build is gimmick as hell.

Auz the RipperOct 23, 20153 votes

I said helpful, not great or amazeballs and I can't imagine throwing an AA or two in between abilities to be that hard.

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20153 votes

when your AS is dookie along with your attack animation being slow it is not the easiest thing to accomplish. I am not denying it is an "okay" item on him but if I wanted to still be bulky while throwing autos around I would just go for Titanic Hydra.

IpolsOct 23, 20151 votes

He's not wwicked In my opinion, I pick him 50% of the times when I have to go top, never had problems vs the Juggernauts

NichtHurzOct 23, 201518 votes

That might show that you're a good Sion player, but Sion's problem is that the reward for your effort or lead is just way too small.

IpolsOct 23, 20153 votes

the reward is building full tank while still doing dmg and beeing unkillable (10% max HP shield every few seconds)

101100111000Oct 23, 20159 votes

A full tank Sion itself will never reliably deal damage. That's the gist of Sion. He zones with the threat of damage, so he punishes people that ignore him. But until he reaches a solid endgame, a good amount of his damage( that isn't in his Q) can go largely ignored because it doesn't provide anything else, and the scalings are so poor they're not even needed.