@Riot Meddler - Support or Divers Should Be Addressed in Next Class Update, Not Tanks

Winterkill··15 votes·1,599 views

I have a few reasons as to why tanks, for the second time around, should not be addressed over Supports or Divers. If you really think about it, we have Six classes in this game. Mage, Fighter, Rogue, ADC, Tank, and Support. Four of those six classes have been worked in one on way or another. Tanky damagers, Bruisers, were worked on first. ADC champions were worked on next. Mages were after that. Then just recently Rogue. I think it isn't fair to go back to another class that received an update when yu have two other ones that could benefit from a little more love and a clear direction. You may have worked on soley the subclasses of these 6 classes, but you tackled problems within the class itself which made it easier for you to probably work on the subclasses later on.

Divers - I consider Divers to be fighters. My opinion is that there are a lot of champions that need more work . . . than just the class itemization. If you really think about it, the Diver class can use tank items . . . they can use . . . some adc items . . . and even some of them can use AP items. What I think the problem is you have champions that are not reaching their full potential as a real "Diver" like champion. This class benefits more from champions being updated and worked on, like Aatrox.

Support - Support is the most undesirable role to play as in League of Legends. No one wants to play support. No one wants to learn how to play support. You wanna know why? The support role is the most unoriginal, bland, and boring role in the game. You have dumb downed so many champions, changed so many champion kits to fit a specific mindset of what a support should be, and made SPECIFIC support champions feel so unimportant and bland to play as. Oh hey I can paly as Lulu to shield others and use my ULT heal my teammate and make sure they don't die. Oh hey I can play Karma and be a strong damage dealer early game, but be nothing but a shield bot late game. Oh hey I can play Janna and use my shields on my allies to keep them alive. For all three of these champions I can use the new support items to increase my shield and heal amounts . . . . by just pressing one button. Oh how fun it is to play a champion that is only useful with one button late game . . . . how ironic they happen to be champions that can give shields to allies.

The support class . . . . specifically the enchanters . . . . are VERY boring and lame to play as. Add in the poor AP itemization and nothing exciting about them, they all feel the same. Oh hey . . . buy this support item to increase the effectiveness on this one ability I want you to spam through-out the game. I view Morgana as a successful support champion . . . . which a lot of people might not agree with me . . . but she is a support that has choices. Morgana can build sightstone and then all AP items to help with damage. Or Morgana could build pure utility and support items to protect her teammates. Or Morgana can build a mixture of damage and support items to do a good amount of damage, while still having options to protect her teammates if she needs to. I do not have those choices on Karma, Lulu, or Janna. Karma, Lulu, and Janna are not distinctive enough and they have no options other than just . . . . hey build pure support items because I do hardly no damage. What happens if the ADC dies and you have an enemy with hardly no health but you have full health . . . but you have such long cooldowns and do no damage . . . that you die. As Morgana that probably wouldn't have happened. Karma might have very good damage early game, that damage fall off VERY bad mid and late game . . . . and she is nothing more than a shield bot late game.


I would love to say Divers should be looked at before support, but quite frankly . . . the support role is a mess. The fact that there is no que time wait for anyone queing as a support, makes you wonder why . . . . and that is because the itemization sucks, the role is bland and not enticing enough, and there are champions being dumbed down for the sake of a specific idea of how the support role should be played all the same. Karma, Lulu and Janna all feel like the same champion. All three champions have a shield. All three champions have an ability to speed other players up. All three champions have a heal, and yes even Karma has a heal. You see how Karma, Janna, and Lulu feel all the same . . . . and not very distinctive? Sona can do the same thing . . . but she has decent damage and a rewarding ULT. Sona is a lot more fun to play in the support role than Karma, Lulu, and Janna . . . . I would love to see Sona be able to be played in solo lanes.

I would not be opposed to Divers being tackled next. Tanks should wait for Divers and Support. Sorry . . . . the new mastery has helped them a lot. I just don't feel like it is very fair to make Divers and Supports wait when tanks have been addressed the most out of any class so far.

32 Comments

ChaddyFantome6 votes

tanks do need to be updated because as of right now, they all kind of do the same thing and the tanks that get picked are more about whos currently statistically better (takes less damage/does more damage/has better cc) than who is good n x given situation. Also, people tend to find them boring to play.

Support issues aren't something that can be fixed purely with a class update since support isn't really a class, but a position.

Divers while they need help tend to have enough differences to where you have a reason to pick one over the other. the issue they have is more that a lot of them kind of got outclassed bu newer ones i feel.

Also

Support - Support is the most undesirable role to play as in League of Legends. No one wants to play support. No one wants to learn how to play support. You wanna know why? The support role is the most unoriginal, bland, and boring role in the game.

I take metric tons of offense to this.

Winterkill3 votes

What they should do is redefine what the word "support" means in League of Legends. I don't think I was really conveying what I was really trying to say in my . . . . incredibly long and useless post. Support champions should not be dumbed down they way they are. Karma, Sona, Janna, Nami, Lulu, and ETC should be ONE class, but be champions that have abilities that can suit their class but also help others. Karma should foremost be a battlemage with abilities that can be used on allies to help them. Karma feels like that early game . . . but falls off mid and late game very bad. You have the other spectrum of champions like Lulu, Sona, and Janna that don't do any of that.

Thes support role has no direction and is not exciting. The tank role at least has the backbone to be a class. Tanky champions can build AD or AP items to be more useful in the game. Support champions can build one item to increase the effectiveness of their shielding and healing abilities. How fun is it to play the support role over the tank role? You at least have options and your champions can do more than supports.


People might disagree with me. That is fine. I might even be wrong . . . I just feel like supports should be tackled next.


EDIT-

It's true though. The que times is evidence to prove it. What is the first role teammates blame for losing a game? Support. What role is bland and boring to play as? Support. What role has no damage, long cooldowns, and is completely team reliant? Support. If my teammate I am protecting dies, but manages to get my opponent so low . . . that I should be able to kill him. Well I am dead because everything is on cooldown and I do no damage what so ever. I may have full health but everything is against me as a support.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

It's true though. The que times is evidence to prove it. What is the first role teammates blame for losing a game? Support. What role is bland and boring to play as? Support.

No, its the jungler or whoever was feeding most. Support only gets blamed by the adc.

What role has no damage, long cooldowns, and is completely team reliant? Support.

Depends on the support you are playing and Support is actually the class with the easiest access to CDR of any class, unless you are a tanky supp.

If my teammate I am protecting dies, but manages to get my opponent so low . . . that I should be able to kill him. Well I am dead because everything is on cooldown and I do no damage what so ever. I may have full health but everything is against me as a support.

Well in that scenario, assuming your teamate isn't dead because they are boosted monkeys and tried to towerdive a thresh for a kill on ezreal, then you probably didnt do a good enough job protecting your teammates. Theoretically speaking ofc. You can't help it if your team member runs away from you and wont let u shield them, I know, ive been there, but when it DOES happen, the result is often an unkilable god tearing though the enemy ranks.

Have you seen a Jinx, Twitch or Vayne on Lulu Whimsy with item 3504 ?

Supports can turn even just 1 team member into a monster capable of winning 1 v 3s easily when played correctly. If you also has the damage to fight people 1v1 by yourself on top of all that utility , you;d be simply broken. Why even have a mage at that point when the support can do what they do with all this utility?

Being vulnerable i n terms of damage is par for the course as support, just as it is for tanks for the most part, and while i dont think supports should have NO damage, they rally shouldn't have much either. Unless you are a "support" or as i like to call them "discount midlaners"Brand VelkozAnnie

dark100dark1002 votes

Supports can turn even just 1 team member into a monster capable of winning 1 v 3s easily when played correctly.

Or die horribly. Shields / health does not make a weak a player better.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Or die horribly. Shields / health does not make a weak a player better.

dude, it doesn't matter how good or bad the ADC is compared to the opponent if they outstat them and can't die. Damage is damage and in league, the person who doesn't die and kills the enemy wins.

dimiondo1 votes

Going to have to massively disagree with this one, tanks and divers suffer from the same problem. The difference is that while you can pick any tank and do well because they have alright kits and the champs are in a balanced position, the diver class isn't. Several of them need obvious reworks or buffs,like aatrox for a stupidly long time and they literally have no diversity. They are all dive into the backline and cc someone and hopefully their team follows up or they die. The only reason tanks need a rework at all is to give them some item diversity.

Jmman1 votes

I kinda agree and understand with this. As a Fiddle main from season one. I can't not play him atm. Just not fun being counter jungled so badly. Support and mid they are always better picks. I rather them just do the champs that really need it. Not the ones that lost there flash for lcs. They need to pick the least 10 play champs every season and fix them. The can still do balance changes but I would say after worlds or whatever they call it. They should do this every season.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Going to have to massively disagree with this one, tanks and divers suffer from the same problem. The difference is that while you can pick any tank and do well because they have alright kits and the champs are in a balanced position, the diver class isn't. Several of them need obvious reworks or buffs,like aatrox for a stupidly long time.

You basically tried to argue that you disagree with my point, ..by using the exact same argument I used.

and they literally have no diversity. They are all dive into the backline and cc someone and hopefully their team follows up or they die.

First off, this is a silly thing to sue to claim they have no diversity. That is the classes shtick. You might as well say ADC's have no diversity because they all provide high and consistent amounts of physical damage from range, or Assassins have no diversity because they all specialize in eliminating a target with high mobility, or mages all provide large amounts of damage in chunks, utility and bursts from a safe distance.

Yes, champs of the same class will do things similar to eachother. Who knew?

The difference is that Divers have a better time distinguishing themselves from one another than Tanks do. Malphite and Amumu are mostly interchangeable in teamcomps.

Diana, Xin Zhao and Nocturne aren't.

dimiondo1 votes

Lol the reason I disagree with your point is that your argument is flawed. You’re asking for reworks on champs with solid kits that do well in the current patch. You’re saying they need to diversify the role because tanks are getting outclassed by the strongest tank at the moment. You then contradict yourself by saying that divers are fine, but are getting outclassed by new divers. Which is ironic because we haven’t had a diver be released in a long time. (yes I know camile has been released but I’m pretty sure she is the first one since aatrox). Secondly you can’t say the role is diverse when literally all the champions try to do the same thing. Use a point and click skill to get into the backline and try to kill the most important target either dying in the process or killing them, then moving on to the next target.

Diana does this. Xin Does this. Noc Does this. The difference is their range and damage output, you could argue some minor differences but it is essentially the same.

Secondly this

Yes, champs of the same class will do things similar to eachother. Who knew?

This is an argument against reworking your champs as well… your basically saying it’s all right that divers do similar things, then how can you complain when tanks do similar things as well? Tanks and Divers suffer from similar problems…. Lastly this

First off, this is a silly thing to sue to claim they have no diversity. That is the classes shtick. You might as well say ADC's have no diversity because they all provide high and consistent amounts of physical damage from range, or Assassins have no diversity because they all specialize in eliminating a target with high mobility, or mages all provide large amounts of damage in chunks, utility and bursts from a safe distance

Is just frankly funny. You realise you listed three of the classes that got a class update right? You can’t argue that a class doesn’t have a lack of diversity because they do similar things, then give classes that got updated because riot felt like they weren’t diverse enough… Now I agree with you that tanks need a rework. However it is not needed urgently. Divers do. Divers due to the nature of their kit are massively feast or famine, they need to kill their target or they are useless. This means that weak divers will never get picked over strong divers while a tank can focus on using crowd control to control to disrupt the enemy team. So even if they are behind or weak, they can at least be useful. A weak diver cannot.

Finally there are more champs in the diver class that need reworks, Xin, aatrox are just 2 examples of them. Yes Malphite and amumu are interchangeable in teamcomps, but at least you can use both viably unlike certain champs in the diver class.

IxtaliKing4 votes

If there were an Enchanter update who do you think would be the main candidates for big changes?

Enchanters (excluding Ivern, Bard and Taric)

Soraka - Soraka is the best healer. Janna - Janna has the strongest peel/disengage. Nami - Nami has the strongest engage out of the Enchanters. Morgana (Hybrid) - CC immunity and high damage potential. Lulu - Lulu has the best single target protection. Zilean - Best zone control, free GA and Exp (probably needs a VGU). Sona - Generalist, free locket and talisman. Karma (Hybrid) - Generalist, free locket and talisman.

Every Enchanter either adds something unique or excels at doing something in particular except Karma and Sona. In Sona's case being a generalist Enchanter is cool because her utility doesn't outshine the other Enchanters. Karma on the other hand is a bit of a mess, she has:

  • High damage (... because she's a mage)
  • A self heal, a very battle mage-like quality
  • A basic root to set up her her own damage (W > RQ)
  • An extended late game root that only her allies can really take advantage of
  • A basic Enchanter shield with a speed boost
  • The largest shield in the game (always has been, but now even more so) which happens to be AoE wth a speed boost
  • An empowered damage ability (RQ) which is most effective at max range, a very artillery mage-like quality

On a champ that is supposed to be a Battle Mage/ Enchanter, and somehow still manages to be "bland"? That's a mess.

As much as I'd personally love to see an Enchanter update next year, I think it's very unlikely when Karma is the only one who doesn't make any sense at all.

Requiemsfire2 votes

I'd say Karma, Lulu, and Sona.

LankPants2 votes

Tanks mostly need itemisation updates. Personally what I want to see Riot do in the mid season is a mass itemisation overhaul. I'm not convinced by their class updates in the first place, I'd say their failure rate is far too high. IMO the Skarner, Mord, Kog, Graves, Zyra, Vel'koz, Akali and Shaco reworks have been overwhelming failures, that's a 20-25% failure rate, that's kinda terrible.

I'd like to see an overhaul of tank, bruiser, mage and support items. I think the itemisation problems facing these 4 classes is more of an issue than any of the actual champion designs in them.

Zerenza2 votes

Diver's That Need Changes: XinZhao Irelia Jax MasterYiAatrox Pantheon Udyr

Fighter's and Diver's from the early days of league are all about Stats and Auto Attacks, all you have to do to win a fight with most of those champions above in a 1v1 is stat check and you'll probably win. It makes the class overall very linear in play style and in addition makes it a bland playstyle at that. If you can play one of these champions, chances are you can play all of them. Not to mention Diver's also have really good archetypes, take Udyr for example but their playstyle is overall very boring and doesn't offer much in counterplay for the opponent or outplay for the player. You can't show off at all.

Tanks That Need Changes: Shen Malphite Nautilus Rammus Maokai Garen DrMundo

Tanks have one of the same issues as Diver's, they lack any really interesting gameplay from the older designs and are usually all about gaining as many raw stats as possible in lane then melting in teamfights to burn big damage abilities or CC. Most tanks play the same and one issue they have is every tank looses in lane to a Fight/Diver (except Garen) they just can't match the damage and don't have the tools necessary to keep up in the meta game anymore whereas Diver's do they just need to feel different from eachother similar to the Assassin update.

Supports That Need Changes Soraka Sona Lulu

Support's don't need changes, the only supports that are Pure Supports that might need changes are the Healing ones, the unhealthy ones that cause a lot of gameplay issues and balance issues.

Ralanr4 votes

Mundo and Garen aren't tanks.

IxtaliKing7 votes
  • Irelia is in line for a VGU.
  • Shen and Maokai are Wardens, the more supportive tanks. Vanguards Nautilus Rammus Malphite are what Riot wants to tackle.
  • Garen and DrMundo are Juggernauts.
  • You missed Karma from your list of Enchanters, Riot basically confirmed they'd work on her in an either an Ionian lore event or an Enchanter update already. She's in about as much if not more need than Lulu Sona Soraka .
Zerenza3 votes

The boards are so nit picky....

IxtaliKing1 votes

Wasn't my intention to nitpick, apologies if I came across that way.

Zerenza1 votes

You and everyone else are like this.

"Weelllll those champions are "Wardens" so not necessarily what you said, it's the same thing just a different name and you triggered me by caling them "tanks"" you guys know what i mean there is not need to continually correct them i only listed the champions that riot has said they might look at in future class updates.

IxtaliKing4 votes

You compared "Tanks" which is an entire class, to "Divers", a subclass. My only intention was to provide clarity in that regard, not to patronize you.

Chamuel852 votes

Didn't Shen already get a full rework and Soraka like 2 of them? I think that Sona also got a mini rework.

Anonagon2 votes

In addition to what KingKold93 said, Udyr is also a Juggernaut and not a Diver, and Jax and Yi are Skirmishers rather than Divers (though it's easy to confuse these two in particular. They both need large scale work.)

Zerenza1 votes

Nitpicky people i swear, regardless of what riot lists them as the way that they play are as diver's and the ones i listed are, as stated by meddler, quite possibly to be looked at during a diver class update.

It would be easier just to say Brainless AA champions but for real why are the boards so nit picky, you knew what i meant so what's the point of correcting everything it's really annoying.

Anonagon3 votes

Udyr does not play as a Diver in the slightest.

Jax and Yi wouldn't be looked at during a Diver update. Nowhere has Meddler said anything of the sort.

It's not nitpicky to discuss what classes champions belong to when the discussion at hand is directly about classes themselves. It would be nitpicky if I was the asshole who came into random threads and went "um excuse me X champion isn't a tank" and ignored an argument on an unrelated topic just because of it.

Ralanr2 votes

"Second time around"

When was the first time around for tanks?

kasfas2 votes

Firstly, support isn't class of champion, it's a role or position like top, jungle, or mid. Secondly riot has several different types of classes like enchanter, burst Mage, warden, vanguard, diver, juggernaut, etc. The classes they thought about updating next are vanguards or divers, not enchanters or wardens. Support is not a class I know of thus far, neither is rogue (though the argument could be made that rogue == slayer). Finally I'm pretty confident that riot is going to look at the classes in this order: divers, vanguards, wardens, enchanters. Mostly because tanky itemization tends to overlap all of those first three major classes, vanguards and wardens have many overlapping kits and need reworks, and defensive itemization has needed changing for a significant amount of time.

However I'm fairly certain that the only class they could look at afterwards is the enchanter class, or perhaps skirmishers. So don't feel too down, plus enchanters have some really good itemization right now so they'll just be getting balance changes for the most part. In fact if you look at the enchanter class this far it seems that riot has been slowly giving them their own class update and majority of changes when they finally get to enchanters seem to be small.

chipndip12 votes

This thread needs 500 comments, 1000 upvotes, and 30 Riot comments. The things you said about support is what I've been saying FOR AGES.

Cute Poro1 votes

As a support, I only queue as a support. I like support.

Winterkill2 votes

Great. I am a support main as well. I feel like the role itself is boring to play and it is not exciting. There are also too many champions be dumbed down for the sake of a specific idea of what support should the support role should be. What do you think Riot can do to make the role more interesting?

Zerenza2 votes

Not much, but certainly not adding items like Redemption. The item is broken, it could use some nerfs but even then it might be pretty OP.

They just need to make more supports like Bard and Thresh, playmaking supports and supports that take lots of skill and have lots of option instead of Healbot Supports that can't do much outside of make the game unhealthy by giving their ADC 4k health. They should also make more support viable for Top/Mid and Jungle so you can main a support champ and not have to play support constantly because even as a mid laner i get bored of mid sometimes.

Cute Poro1 votes

To be honest, I don't think it's boring or uninteresting so there's nothing I can think of to make it more interesting for you. I have a lot of fun with it, which is why I queue as it.

Big Lincoln1 votes

I would disagree if only because tank itemization will still be necessary for divers, and tank champions themselves have the same problem a lot of supports do; they do the same exact thing and there's no real reason to pick them other than just objectively being better at doing the same thing. That being said, I'm pretty sure I would hate whatever idea they have for Sejuani if she makes the list.

Support is in a really shit spot too, in my opinion, but that's mostly due to Riot only ever letting supports have CC, heals/shields, and damage. We've got no really stand-out champions besides Bard and his portal. Honestly, it feels like Riot is very conservative about what they give supports; a lot of them feel like they're missing something. They never have, like, that ability to just go crazy and feel really good about doing something like they have with mages or the new fighters.

I would probably say Divers > Supports > Tanks. Divers are owed priority; they have been promised already and a lot of these champs have been waiting longer than any support to be viable again.

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