Why is there no offensive item built out of tear for AP champions?

Oakleaf Ranger··2 votes·556 views

Tear isn't appealing enough to a lot of AP champions when it builds into an item that has a defensive passive (talking about the shield) instead of an AP item that offers a offensive passive. Why hasn't one been created already?

23 Comments

Sightless666 votes

Seraph's give a fuckton of AP. That's offense in my book. The passive gives damage and the active gives defense. It gets to do offense and defense at the cost of having a very, very long stack-up time.

DeathBurst2 votes

Yeah, it's probably the single biggest AP item with Rabadon right now. Stack it with some item built out of Catalyst (RoA, GLP007, ...) and a Morello, and you have an insane amount of Mana and AP.

Flaherty2 votes

Look at it this way, it lets you stay alive longer so you can do more of your abilities so overall it is more offensive than defensive. You can't do damage when you're dead.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

The difficulty of staying alive changes with every game and as it progresses. So the choice to either build the offensive or the defensive version is constantly changing.

Flaherty3 votes

Seraph's is mostly offensive though, the extra mana that turns in to more AP is an offensive passive. It also just has a shield on it which is extra. Is bloodthirster a defensive item because it gives you that shield as well?

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Comparing Seraphs and Bloodthirster is like comparing apples to oranges. Those 2 items are used by different classes of champions that function and interact with items too differently to be comparable.

Flaherty2 votes

Not really, other than the ramp up and extra stats that Seraphs gives those two items are at their core are items that give offensive stats and provide a shield.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

The reason I say that you can't compare them is because ADC's are a constant source of damage that are able to gain back HP from Bloodthirsters life steal that also only gives a shield for life stealing past their health bar so the shield is only gonna be present at the start of fights if given the chance to build it up. Mages damage are gated by spells, mana, and cooldowns. While the shield is dependent on the amount of mana consumed by the active to decide how strong it is.

LadyRenly2 votes

Seraphs gives like...more base AP than a deathcap, doesn't it? Even moreso if you so happen to have tear. It's offensive enough

Mysticman891 votes

Do you mean offensive active? I'm pretty sure turning your total mana into more AP is an offensive passive.

(And I seem to recall that that passive is strong enough that the maximum theoretical AP build features it, although that may have changed with the mage update.)

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

I'm not sure after the mage update, but the AP from the passive isn't strong enough to chose over another AP item if I'm looking for an offensive AP item. Bascially what I'm saying is that tear has the potential to offer a bigger mana pool that refunds mana that many players would be willing to build if they could get more offense instead of a shield. I still think the shield option should be available but a more offensive option should exist as well.

1374341 votes

You realize that DC and a fully stacked Mejai's are the only two items that give more AP than a Seraph (by itself, not including champion base mana and any mana from other items/runes/etc)?

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Its also requires time to build up that damage as well. The offensive version would still keep the same concept needing stacks and time to achieve the maximum potential of the item

1374341 votes

But if it had an offensive active you would likely see it have much lower AP (or else very few people would likely take Seraphs). Which means the passive has to be incredibly strong to be worth stacking and choosing it over Seraphs, that is also unique from other items (i.e. Ludens or lichbane). I don't see the point. Seraphs already offers a ton of offensive stats and all users benefit from the shield.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

If it got an offensive version then I would imagine the offensive bonus would be equivalent of the shield or having the items costs adjusted accordingly to what it offers.

Jbels1 votes

I don't know, the mages that do build tear find that extra 400 health shield or so to be preeeetty attractive

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

The only 3 mages off the top of my head that I see building it are Anivia Cassiopeia Ryze Cass doesn't need boots so she basically gets a free slot for another item that isn't possible for other mages. Anivia already does a lot of damage but needs the larger mana pool to keep up with her mana costs and Ryze scales with mana. A offensive version would make the item more appealing to mages who don't really care/need the shield but would like a larger mana pool.

Flaherty1 votes

So you want another offensive item that offers mana to build alongside Morellos? Or to have something that you can choose either it or Morellos?

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Well in terms in mana you wouldn't need to also have Morellos to keep up with your mana costs unless your really mana hungry or want to use spam spells more (IDK why but I guess that might be possible with both?) But at the same time the CDR and passives from Morellos would still make it worth purchasing if you still want those while both items wouldn't conflict with each other. I don't have anything off the top of my head on what the offensive active would be so I don't know how that would affect having Morellos with it.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

seraphs is already the highest raw ap item in the game after deathcap.

why does there need to be a version with an offensive active?

Wînter Fox1 votes

Mana + Offense = item 3165

Oleandervine1 votes

The thing is, the item can't be too appealing or it will absolutely choke out every item in an AP build. The mana refund passive on the Tear and Seraph's is extremely powerful for mages since mana management has become much more of a necessity, and if an item gave you heavy offensive capability with strong mana management, the item would either have to be really expensive or have its power gated behind some other mechanic. Having items be too well rounded makes builds stale and such is why niche items exist.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

I already see seraph's power being gated be time and stacking which would applied to the more offensive version. So the item would probably be only appealing to champions who have a stronger mid to late game where early game to mid game champions would prefer item 3165. Plus buying item 3070 means your trading early game power for more later. So champions take the risk of being weaker early to be potentially stronger later. This item I think also opens up a chance to have a new and very unique offensive active in the game.

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