So... only Teemo will have Blind once Quinn loses it...

darkdill·Oct 29, 2015·25 votes·2,341 views

Is this Riot's way of saying "Blinds are toxic gameplay"?

49 Comments

ChickenWrapOct 29, 201522 votes

Yes, because Teemo is, quite literally, the epitome of Toxic.

KING OF MASKSOct 29, 20152 votes

It's even in his kit. http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/07/Toxic_Shot.png

ChickenWrapOct 29, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEQA3BGY,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-10-29T20:24:13.236+0000)

It's even in his kit. http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/07/Toxic_Shot.png

ThatsTheJoke.jpg

kile147Oct 29, 20155 votes

They don't want it to be a common mechanic because it's not a good one. They need to either change how it works, or not add anymore. My guess is that Teemo will keep his blind just due to history, but they'll never let him be truly viable because of it.

FeathermaneOct 29, 20154 votes

{quoted}

They don't want it to be a common mechanic because it's not a good one. They need to either change how it works, or not add anymore. My guess is that Teemo will keep his blind just due to history, but they'll never let him be truly viable because of it.

Why is it not a good mechanic? Such arbitrary tripe. You could wake up tomorrow, decide slows are a bad mechanic and start removing them. Blinds and silences are awesome.

darkdillOct 29, 20151 votes

Blinds are nastier than most think. It's not just that they can neuter AA-dependent Champions, but you can also use them to fuck up an opponent's last-hitting.

kile147Oct 29, 20152 votes

Basically this, it feels like shit to play against and it's not that the mechanic is inherently bad, but that it's difficult to balance effectively. Riot isn't a big fan of mechanics that have massively varying levels of power based upon who its used on. If I am playing a mage a blind basically means nothing except I can't auto for a bit ( Karthus "you mean Q?"). If its Vayne then a 3 second blind is 3 seconds of being literally useless. Something like a slow effects all champions roughly the same, even champs who dash everywhere care if they are slowed because it can mean the difference between getting away and not, so tuning the strength of slows is easier.

For CarthageOct 29, 20151 votes

Galio : As a champ is meant to be built anti-mage. Clearly varying levels of power in who he faces - better remove from the game.

Rammus : As a champ clearly counters AD auto-attackers. Better remove since he has mixed viability depending on if he's against AD or AP champs.

The argument is pretty piss poor for removing blind based on it "neutering a type of champ" when there's various examples of champion kits being built solely for the purpose of neutering a type of champ (hello Veigar , Trundle , Olaf [CC tank counter], Chogath [assassin counter] ). Hell, certain champs even counter others so hard inadvertently that it's almost rage inducing to go up against those people since their counter's so situational that their kit doesn't even seem to be balanced around it being a mechanic (hello Tryndamere versus any AD top ever).

Teemo's officially become the anti-ADC assassin at this point. That's the "niche" role that's set up for him while Rammus is the anti-ADC tank and Galio's the anti-mage tank with Veigar being the anti-mage... uh... mage (wonder if he hates himself also). If anything, the reason for the blind removal on Quinn is that she was meant to be an ADC and having a blind on an ADC versing other ADC's tends to make the fight pretty one-sided early on.

kile147Oct 29, 20152 votes

It's worth pointing out that pretty all of the champions you listed are either kept weak ( Galio Rammus ) or are heavily complained about for exactly the reasons you listed. However when it comes to champions there is generally counter play and counter build so if you are afraid Veigar is going to one shot you, you build a bit of mr/health or item 3157 . If Tryndamere is pushing your top laner in, gank him with cc. Teemo is kept pretty weak because he has an annoying kit and because his ability to essentially make an adc useless for 2.5 secs on an 8 second cooldown. I'm not going to argue that there aren't other things in the game that have a similar issue, but Riot doesn't appear to have as much of an issue with those.

Edit: When I say champions, I mean that those champions have kits that counter specific things, but not a single aspect that makes them that way. Teemo is literally just a blind when it comes to counter adc.

FeathermaneOct 29, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Blinds are nastier than most think. It's not just that they can neuter AA-dependent Champions, but you can also use them to fuck up an opponent's last-hitting.

Yeah, it's a negative effect. A stun can mess up your last-hitting too. Care to remove?

VeraskaOct 29, 20152 votes

A stun Is equally effective against anyone, brand doesn't care if he's blinded but tryndamere surely does, that's the major issue with it, it's almost completely useless or it neuter a champions power.

Another issue is clarity, it's not always apparent why you just didn't do damage to the target (when I was low level I thought teetos q made him invulnerable to damage lol)

darkdillOct 29, 20151 votes

This. Blinds are ineffective against many, but too powerful against others. Plus Teemo's dart can last up to 2.5 seconds, while most stuns don't even last 1.5 (outside of ultimates).

That and Teemo's Blinding Dart is direct-target, so you can't dodge it without becoming untargetable.

VeraskaOct 29, 20152 votes

Another thing to note is that stuns have a lot more conditions attached to them for their power, teemos blind is incredibly reliable (ranged and targeted) and can potentially have as much dueling power as a stun, it's power is to variable but if you balanced around its most optimal use it'd be a really bad spell.

SaiannaOct 30, 20153 votes

Isn't that the same with silences? Or stuns?

Silencing a mage is by far more effective way of cutting enemys team power than silencing an ADC that just stands in 1 spot and AAs everything in its wake.

In stun case. Stunning an ADC or other squishy target is by far more profitable than stunning a tank.

Tbh we don't have enough blinds to balance all kinds of CC. With more blinds in LoL players would get used to it. But nooooooooooooope, AA-focused champions gotta have it all.

MathbalnaseOct 30, 20151 votes

What ADC in this game doesn't lose out on at least some significant portion of their mid-fight capabilities by being silenced?

SaiannaOct 31, 20151 votes

By that logic silenced mages can also still AA enemies..

MathbalnaseOct 31, 20151 votes

A Vayne loses quite a lot more of her power by being unable to Tumble than an Annie loses by having her AAs miss.

FeathermaneOct 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

A stun Is equally effective against anyone, brand doesn't care if he's blinded but tryndamere surely does, that's the major issue with it, it's almost completely useless or it neuter a champions power.

Another issue is clarity, it's not always apparent why you just didn't do damage to the target (when I was low level I thought teetos q made him invulnerable to damage lol)

For the first part, that same thing can also be phrased as: promotes decision-making.

For the second: if Jax' Counterstrike can remain in the game, so can blinds.

XonraOct 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, it's a negative effect. A stun can mess up your last-hitting too. Care to remove?

Dying tends to negatively impact last hitting as well. Think I'd like to remove that just to be safe.

SaiannaOct 30, 20151 votes

I disagree.

Reason is: blind is really situational.

Silence disables abiltiies & spells Root disables movement & mobility spells Stun/knockup/death disabless all.

And Blind is the bad one?

What's more Teemo uses his Q more as a damage-harrass tool than blind.

Imo if Blind is bad, then so are all stuns, silences & knockups.

kile147Oct 30, 20152 votes

That's the whole issue. If teemo had a 1 second blind it wouldn't be very useful at all against most of the roster, but would be reasonably effective against someone like Vayne. If he had a 5 second blind it would be long enough that champs who auto attack very little would care a bit, but it would completely wreck Vayne. That discrepancy in power is what makes it a difficult thing to balance, because it's hard to make it feel meaningful in most situations without making it absolutely broken in some. With other cc like stuns, slows, and knockups it feels reasonably powerful against everyone without making it too broken in edge cases because nobody likes to be stunned (whereas Karthus could be perma-blind and not even notice).

SaiannaOct 30, 20151 votes

No.. That isn't an issue.

1s blind is useless. And if ADC can't back down for 2-2,5 seconds before spamming their AA once again, then it's ADCs fault. There has to be a meaningfull CC that works only for ADCs as there is silence that wrecks only mages.

kile147Oct 30, 20152 votes

Silence wrecks mages, but it's reasonably harmful to everyone. While not every champ is completely shut down by silence it weakens almost every champion in the game fairly noticeably. Basically if a champ can afford to be blinded for 5 seconds it means its a mage or a tank, if they can afford to be silenced for 5 seconds then that's a shitty champion because even the most auto attack reliant champs in the game ( Tryndamere , Draven , Vayne for example) get noticeably weaker when silenced because it prevents them from using their re-positioning and defensive tools.

I'm not arguing that blind shouldn't exist in some form, but it needs some tweaks to feel better for everyone.

SwapShadowsOct 29, 20153 votes

Blinds should be removed or at least not kept on a point and click ability.

Midder ScrayOct 29, 20151 votes

Exactly. They need to at least make Teemo's Q a skillshot

PyrodiniumOct 29, 20152 votes

They probably have their place of the game.

But a Top-lane Marksman with an assassin/duelist gameplay is probably not one of those. Having a Blind on such a champion creates problems similar to those found on Mid-lane Assassins with access to a reliable Silence.

Voluug13Oct 29, 20152 votes

The difference is that blind only affects lss that 50% of the toplane rooster, while silence affected 95% of the midlane rooster. Toplane is MUCH more diverse that midlane. You have ad casters, ap casters, tanks, etc. Not all of them are affected equally by blinds.

PyrodiniumOct 29, 20152 votes

While that is certainly true, is also irrelevant to those champions that are actually affected by the Blind, who are screwed if they face Quinn.

Also, Blinding Assault can be used on the laning phase to disrupt last-hitting, which disproportionately affects melee champions, regardless if they rely on basic attacks to trade.

Voluug13Oct 29, 20153 votes

Every champion should have bad and good match ups. The amount of champions hyperdependant on AAs is pretty low compared to those that mix AAs and abilities or are 100% abilities.

Wind WhistlerOct 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The difference is that blind only affects lss that 50% of the toplane rooster, while silence affected 95% of the midlane rooster.

There's a rooster in top and mid lane now?

DrCyanideOct 30, 20151 votes

I've seen Azir mid, I guess he could go top too.

PartholonianOct 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wind Whistler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEQA3BGY,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2015-10-29T22:26:38.473+0000)

There's a rooster in top and mid lane now?

As part of the marksman rework, Valor got a sex and species change.

YorukinOct 29, 20152 votes

Nono, that's not true! There's still a "blind" in the game! After all, smoking is bad for your ~~international sales~~ ~~health~~ vision!

Rustling BushOct 29, 20151 votes

auto attack reliant champions can't do what with kit is built for, so i guess.

XIII VanitasOct 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner Grey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEQA3BGY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-29T03:20:49.731+0000)

auto attack reliant champions can't do what with kit is built for, so i guess.

Therefore silences are toxic because spell reliant champions can't do what their kit is built for? Your logic doesn't work very well with League's current state.

Rustling BushOct 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Therefore silences are toxic because spell reliant champions can't do what their kit is built for? Your logic doesn't work very well with League's current state.

isn't that why talons, kassadins and leblancs silences were removed, because mages couldn't retaliate? don't see anything wrong with my logic their buddy. most silences like fiddlesticks and malzhar are much less reliable.

XIII VanitasOct 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner Grey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEQA3BGY,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T21:09:21.647+0000)

isn't that why talons, kassadins and leblancs silences were removed, because mages couldn't retaliate? don't see anything wrong with my logic their buddy. most silences like fiddlesticks and malzhar are much less reliable.

Your logic seemed flawed because you were only saying "X cc is bad because it prevents me from doing Y and my champion is based on Y". If you consider the cc in its context (what type of champion is using the cc?) you're looking at the subject from the right point of view.

Mr Broken WingsOct 29, 20151 votes

Blind never really worked, its a mechanic thats buggy as hell and riot is lazy and never fixed it. They dont make new champs with it because technically they are not even able to make it work.

KougaOct 29, 20151 votes

I think it falls under the category of "Irrelevant Or Oppressive." Against some Champions the Blind becomes irrelevant if they don't use or rely on AAs. Against others that do, it becomes too oppressive if its used well. So its just overall not a very good mechanic. Doesn't mean it can't be present; Grievous Wounds I think fell into that to a lesser extent. Either you needed to rely on heals/regen, and GW became oppressive against you, or you don't rely on it, and it doesn't really effect you that much. They're bringing GW back, and it can have its own place, but its difficult to balance because its a niche mechanic.

Ace Access Oct 29, 20151 votes

so when is the demon himself gonna lose his blinds ?

Chaotic ReksOct 29, 20151 votes

Because blinds hurt ADCs and we all know how much rito loves their adcs...

Dextix LTOct 29, 20151 votes

LeeSin Toxic confirmed.

NavyDiveaOct 29, 20151 votes

The same reason they took out the dodge stat on tabi.

GuiltyGeckoOct 29, 20151 votes

I don't think blinds are completely bad. It's the AA version of Silence. Quinn's was pretty healthy because it was a skill shot. Teemo's being targeted is part of the issue. If any of you have played Dota 2, they have a similar ability called Disarm and it works fine. Just has to be used correctly.

This may sound controversial, but I would rather remove attack speed slows and replace them with lower duration blinds because AS slows are hard to show in-game. Blinds are more clear, and do a similar job.

XaviorZeroBlazerOct 29, 20151 votes

you forget about Graves

NavyDiveaOct 29, 20151 votes

Not really a blind since they can attack you back.

SaiannaOct 30, 20151 votes

Blind counters ADCs

Therefore blind = toxic

CibrecaOct 31, 20151 votes

That's the irony of it all.

Quinn's was a skill shot, Teemo's a point and click.

Quinn's lasted 1.5 seconds, Teemo's 2.5 seconds.

Sure Quinn's had other qualities that made up for it, but if blind was so oppressive then why take away Quinn's? Teemo was the oppressive one.

Blind was a great mechanic. It was fairly arbitrary but still a great mechanic. But what they did with Quinn in its place is abysmal. If you will take away blind because it is unreliable, consider what was good about it and replace it with a mechanic that can work.

You can very easily reduce another champs AD and AP and have a similar effect of blind that works similarly for everyone (or lower their damage output.)

As it stands, they took everything from Quinn and buffed other champs like nobody's business.