Bot lane bullies don't feel like they fall off.

Ralanr·Jul 25, 2016·69 votes·11,361 views

Edit: I may have chosen poor examples of lane bullies. That's my bad.

Just something I've been thinking about. Lane bullies are powerful early game champions that have a weaker late game to compensate them (best example is Pantheon, who falls off after 30 minutes). These are meant to counter hypercarries by prolonging their power spikes.

Now every lane has bullies. Top has Pantheon, Darius, and Riven (I consider her a bully, but I could be wrong). Mid has Zed. Bot has Lucian, Miss Fortune, and Draven (and others I'm sure).

So I have to ask, when do bot lane bullies fall off? Draven I kinda understand because he's built around a positioning minigame that seperates good Dravens from bad pretty easily. But I've never felt like Lucian (even when playing him if I get fed. He's one of my favorite ADCs because he encourages spell weaving) or MF really fall off as the game goes on.

Am I the only one who thinks this?

199 Comments

Buff Jax pleaseJul 25, 201661 votes

ADCs are the only class in the game that are allowed to bully other champs in lane and also beat you lategame by default.

MelledoneusJul 25, 201620 votes

Azir Squawk?

ReikkenJul 25, 201617 votes

Azir isn't a class.

He also has the same class as ADCs.

MelledoneusJul 26, 20164 votes

Azir is Shurima's dawn. And he is a class, and he's about to teach everyone the name Shurima.

ItankyouJul 25, 201629 votes

Draven Never falls off. hehe xd

RalanrJul 25, 20166 votes

I'll admit that I don't play him enough to really know. But he never feels like he falls off as he chunks my health down late game.

JimmyyyJul 25, 20165 votes

Honestly, Draven doesn't fall off. >Draven Main< I go a mixed armor pen, especially touching on that LANE BULLY thing you're talking about. I use flat armor pen mark runes, and have like 11 flat going into lane, with 7% from masteries. Then, serrated dirk into Ghostblade, means I have 20 flat armor pen in the first 11 minutes of the game, which makes one shotting people until I get my last whisper item still pretty easy.

Ghostblade > Phantom Dancer > Bloodthirster > Infinity Edge > Last Whisper item (throw berserker's greaves in there after first item or some shit idk) and I crit enemy carries (mid laner, adc, squishy junglers?) for like 1100 late game with my axe crits. Teamfights at that point especially in my elo, mainly depend on how well my team can keep me alive so I can dump on nerds as much as possible.

SpecterVonBarenJul 25, 201623 votes

He only really falls off in the sense that his Q minigame becomes harder to do once teamfights start happening which is why it's so easy to tell a good Draven from a bad one because the good ones still juggle even when kiting four people at once. I'd honestly say that with perfect axe catching and positioning that Draven is the strongest ADC.

YumaS2AstralJul 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

He only really falls off in the sense that his Q minigame becomes harder to do once teamfights start happening which is why it's so easy to tell a good Draven from a bad one because the good ones still juggle even when kiting four people at once. I'd honestly say that with perfect axe catching and positioning that Draven is the strongest ADC.

Wouldn't Vayne be the strongest ADC in this sense? Because a good Vayne is impossible to catch late game and she outduels anyone and kill anyone.

JunkοJul 25, 20162 votes

Draven has a good early game and a really good late game. Vayne's early game is shit tier, but still better than Kog'maw's.

MetalrichdogJul 25, 20162 votes

I'll give it to you, Draven never truly falls off unless he's built to fall off. (Going into a straight armor pen build with duskblade and youmuu's rather than grabbing any crit and % armor pen)

IceKingChernobogJul 25, 201628 votes

I feel like Caitlyn joined the "lane bullies that don't fall off club" after her rework. While yes her mini rework is good, she just feels way too oppressive in lane mostly because how she can fully block off passages or set up traps under your tower.

Solari FortuneJul 25, 201624 votes

gotta take advantage of her mid game power drop before she hits her late game power

RoodToobJul 25, 20167 votes

She's always been good early and late game. Shes just picked more so now you notice it. She has a weak Mid game that you can take advantage of, as long as you haven't fed her like crazy early, because that can make her skip over the entire weak point

RiotAesahJul 26, 201616 votes

The two strongest early game ADCs IMO are Lucian and Jhin, and they both have winrates that fall off pretty heavily as game time increases.

RivuoJul 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Aesah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAvUPAT8,comment-id=001f,timestamp=2016-07-26T01:56:07.819+0000)

The two strongest early game ADCs IMO are Lucian and Jhin, and they both have winrates that fall off pretty heavily as game time increases.

What are your thoughts on Caitlyn? A lot of people complain about her but i honestly dont see her as a problem.

RiotAesahJul 26, 201615 votes

Caitlyn is strong early and also very strong lategame where AA range has tremendous value, but she is weaker than most other ADCs in the midgame.

RivuoJul 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Aesah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAvUPAT8,comment-id=001f00000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T01:59:37.198+0000)

Caitlyn is strong early and also very strong lategame where AA range has tremendous value, but she is weaker than most other ADCs in the midgame.

Yeah. I have to agree with you too. Jhin and lucian were always what i would say the strongest adcs. Lucian definitly does fall off because its harder for him, Jhin just dies really fast but is still super strong

Solari FortuneJul 26, 20161 votes

Jhin swaps from damage killing to Utility killing with his Root and Ult Slow. Plus all that damage is loaded into the 4th bullet anyways

RivuoJul 26, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Jhin swaps from damage killing to Utility killing with his Root and Ult Slow. Plus all that damage is loaded into the 4th bullet anyways

Problem is ive been 100-0d by jhins ult as a squishy. It still does damage regardless

DeathBurstJul 26, 20167 votes

The question is, is the dip in mid-game pronounced enough to compensate for the lead she can build in early? Does it provide a significant window where you can act pro-actively, as her opponent, even if she is slightly ahead?

(Real question, not trying to imply it is or isn't the case.)

RiotAesahJul 26, 20169 votes

Her solo Q winrates are very middle of the pack as far as ADCs go, and although she is played reasonably often in competitive it's definitely not an oppressive amount that she crowds out other ADCs. So yes, I think Caitlyn's weaknesses in the midgame are enough to counterbalance her strong early and late game.

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 26, 20167 votes

I am not exactly sure what "solo Q" you are talking about here...

bulldoggamerJul 26, 20164 votes

Kappa

warpenguin555Jul 26, 20162 votes

But seriously it would be great to be able to do something besides watch our turrets die once Caitlyn has her traps set. Like give us some way to clear them or something that doesn't involve us losing a chunk of health a forcing the guy who hit the trap to back

Sire HippingtonJul 26, 20162 votes

Seeing the hecarim nerfs and their reasoning, i wouldn't have though the winrate - gamelength stats are of interest for riot... "For a sustain tank who scales hard into the late game, Hecarim is pretty strong from the get-go"

Aparently Heca scales hard into the lategame while haveing a very similar winrate - gamelength graph to jhin, just that his early power lasts about 5 min longer into midgame befor starting to fall off. Aparently any melee that stays even slightly above 50% in the late is seen as hard scaleing, which speaks alot about the melee vs ranged balance come to lategame.

RiotAesahJul 26, 20163 votes

Player perception is important too- Hecarim has been banned in almost every single ranked game I've played in the past couple weeks, whereas I haven't seen any Jhin/Lucian (or Caitlyn being discussed in a subthread here) bans at all.

Some players will always be upset when champion X gets nerfed, but much more of them would be upset if the champion X who is currently on permaban status DIDN'T get nerfed.

Critmaster GarenJul 26, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Aesah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAvUPAT8,comment-id=001f00030000,timestamp=2016-07-26T17:06:43.646+0000)

Player perception is important too- Hecarim has been banned in almost every single ranked game I've played in the past couple weeks, whereas I haven't seen any Jhin/Lucian (or Caitlyn being discussed in a subthread here) bans at all.

Some players will always be upset when champion X gets nerfed, but much more of them would be upset if the champion X who is currently on permaban status DIDN'T get nerfed.

people rarely ban adc, because there is little difference between them. they basically all do the same thing. auto attack a lot to deal damage and scale hard into lategame. there are minor differences in playstile, but not large enough that they arent interchangble.

strategically they all fill the same role.

one of the problems is, that adc are played 100% every game on every team anyways. you ban one adc, the next strongest in line fills in.

while with other champions like hecarim are banned out because of their specific strength that only very few champions share. (reliable ganks, teamfight initiation, very powerful splitpushing combined in hecarims case).

banning hecarim doesnt guarantee the enemy team will just pick the "next strongest hecarim".

adc are only ever banned if one of them is strong enough to be noticably overpowered to the point where he can solo carry games.

Sire HippingtonJul 26, 20162 votes

The issue isn't that he get's nerfed, which is totally fine by me, but stateing he scales hard into lategame while also saying Jhin is an earlygame lanebully that falls off in the late while both have prettymuch the same winrate/gamelength curve just is wrong to me.

The Yetii RiderJul 25, 201613 votes

Marksmen are required to be decent late game. That's just part of how critical strikes work, along with perfect reliability (their auto attacks are their main source of damage, and auto attacks have no counterplay).

To differentiate, some marksmen are very good in the early game. They may do less damage than their counterparts in the late game, but the difference between 700 damage per auto attack and 500 damage per auto attack isn't much in the middle of a chaotic team fight.

JimmyyyJul 25, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAvUPAT8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-07-25T15:31:12.994+0000)

auto attacks have no counterplay).

Shennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

doombotMECHAJul 25, 20163 votes

well, you can't dodge them, or pink ward them, and eating oranges doesn't make you k i guess kayle and trynd's ults qualify

bill84Jul 25, 20163 votes

item 3110 item 3075 Rammus

Critmaster GarenJul 25, 201612 votes

{quoted}

item 3071 item 3142 item 3156 item 3035 item 3139 Lucian

Vayne

item 3070 Rammus

bill84Jul 25, 20164 votes

Well yes, but those champions would still be made less effective against thornmail and FH even if they are still able to do something.

SerlthreeJul 25, 20163 votes

item 3070 Jax

"You can't dodge them"

BisaknospJul 25, 201610 votes

Jhin huge threat early and his laning is way too good for how damn broken his late is literally 1 shots squishys with this armor pen build

KadavikJul 25, 20163 votes

He struggles against tanks though, while most adcs can deal with them quite easily.

invisiblecat1Jul 25, 20166 votes

Riven doesn't fit since she does a lot more damage full build and when she reaches max cdr and she just punishes mistakes, while Darius just presses Q when you get close

Wolfram OxfordJul 25, 20164 votes

Before I say anything else Zed isn't a lane bully.

Now the thing is gold income hasn't changed that much to compensate the earlier late game. So champions who are getting fed and then dragging it onto the new standard time for late game aren't falling off because they are actually still ahead power-wise. They got ahead early somehow, and are staying ahead, and you aren't reaching your late game power spikes cause you actually require a lot of different stats to be powerful. Mean while people like Lucian, Graves, Draven, even a few crit-ADCs like Jinx, need one or two items to be powerful. So I guess if there is anything to change, it would be how dominant these laners are.

CatastropJul 25, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAvUPAT8,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-07-25T14:22:53.024+0000)

Before I say anything else Zed isn't a lane bully.

So what is he then? An Assassin who happens to be good at bullying the enemy laner?

Masala ChaiJul 26, 20164 votes

I think the only ADC that falls off significantly at this point is Kalista . And her early game isn't that great either, and it's very support dependent.

MunchCrunchLunchJul 26, 20164 votes

Because Riot decided that attack damage ranged carries marskmen are the class that HAS to be picked in a game. what do you see in a game. a top laner.. a support. a mid laner. a jungler. and wait for it. an adc. look at the 4 other champs. none of those lanes/roles. are called by their champion type. the are called by their role and position. adc is a role that is called by your champion type. an ad marksmen. if you dont pick one you will just die while they tanks hold your hands behind your back and you helplessly die. the only way to stop ad carries from just getting stronger and stronger is adding some diminishing returns on building ad and crit as currently it is casusing you to get multiplicative returns. you build crit. you get more attack speed. and more damage. adc items don't double your damage. they keep increasing your damage by a factor of more than 1. meanwhile tank items fall off right after you get one or two of them. but riot has no interest in that obviously. they have been buffing ad carries ever since the preseason and they werent even weak before hand. they buffed them so damn much. tristana and vayne were so broken before then they became weak because they didn't get buffed like the other ones did. I just wish we had better ways to kill those cancerous fuckers (ad carries) reliably late game to me even zed or so isn't reliable against lock down cc teams late game as the adc himself can kill you as fast as you a burst assassin can kill them. I mean a single auto doing 800 damage and if your jhin or draven idk 1-1.5k crits just make you feel really bad about playing the game when their team has enough peel.

every single team fight is about your whole team diving on that little fucker thats doing all the damage and hopefully killing them quick. an adc has the easiest job if the rest of their team did the hard job which is the peeling. yet we call them carries. go ahead and send an adc on their own they just get rekt against a lot of people with brains in their head.

PoskeJul 25, 20162 votes

I just want to say that Riven is not a bully. But if she gets ahead from your bad gameplay / mistakes she can become one Darius is only bully for champions who cant disengage if they try to mini duel him. He ll come even in a duel then hook you and trade beter

Pantheon is lane bully

Lucian isnt lane bully. Idk How the fk can 500 range ADC bully you.. Like wtf=? Miss Fortune is wombo Combo AD carry. But yeah her Q bounce hurts. She can be both bully and wombo combo champ since she has no escape

Draven used to be a bully back when he had bleed. With triple axe Juggling he can pack a punch. Idk I just rarely see him as lane bully. He can be bully if he has a bully support like soraka (Yeah she is not bully dmg wise... But its impossible to lose 2vs2 lane with soraka)

RalanrJul 25, 20162 votes

I always assumed Lucian was a bot lane bully.

doombotMECHAJul 25, 20161 votes

lucian is the thresh of bot lane. he does everything well earlygame he spellweaves and skirmishes to basically have a higher atkspeed than the other guy, and in longer teamfights he's still an adc.

MelledoneusJul 25, 20166 votes

{quoted}

lucian is the thresh of bot lane. he does everything well

Apparently he wasn't good enough at keeping his wife.

ArticalityJul 26, 20162 votes

The thing that many people forget is that its a duo lane..... You can legitimately outbully a Cait/Lucian/Draven in late with a good support. Also, they dont "fall off" in terms of damage but thats because they dont stack health/armor/mr until like 5th or 6th item.

Also, notice how all 3 the champs you mentioned build very similiarly: BC, Ghostblade and PD.

Aatrox Mid 1v5Jul 25, 20161 votes

Well when you said bot lane bullies, I thought you were talking about supports. however all the champions you mentioned have a weakness. for example draven has no mobility and is kinda squishy. the same can be said about mf. and lucian, um........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

CppLJul 25, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=free software,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAvUPAT8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-07-25T13:49:57.771+0000)

Well when you said bot lane bullies, I thought you were talking about supports. however all the champions you mentioned have a weakness. for example draven has no mobility and is kinda squishy. the same can be said about mf. and lucian, um........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

And what adc is not squisy? (except this fucker Graves ) he also has a ms boost and a knockback.Compared how much dps he does ,thats more than enough mobility.