Nerfs to everyone but adc
mages items cost increased zhonya giving 82% gold efficiency bruisers items fucked up tanks items cost increased (theheck?) assassins being nerfed so hard by introduing random damage reduction everywhere some supports items are nerfed for no reasons (talisman: cd increased to 60, no longer has 20 bonus ms, no longer has cdr, mana/hp regen increased).
i loved your kit changes, but the +5 base AD along with the items changes are fucking shit.
bobsenbob13 votestons of core items for bruisers, assassins, mages have been either nerfed or turned into adc item. Wtf? might as well rename it to league of adc
TurquoiseYoshi4 votesI mean Draven IS an ADC...
maikokk10 votesdaily reminder that tank masteries are really powerful and if items stayed on par with where they were tanks would be way too OP
daily reminder that ADC's have reduced attack speed scaling to go with their increased AD
daily reminder that supports dont need flat MS in a non-boot item, look at their mastery tree
daily reminder that item actives on supports should have higher cooldowns because they have items and masteries to reduce them. so they have a meaningful choice between going full support or being a burst queen.
Silents4296 votesDon't be stupid, we clearly need to look only at the negatives at a narrow minded angle.
Guy Fox Teemo4 votesYou do realize its the first Day of the PBE, and they probably have more changes and fine tuning to do? They blatantly make the items a bit over the edge at first to see how much they need to tune them down.
KONO RUBICK DA14 votesYou do realize its the first Day of the PBE, and they probably have more changes and fine tuning to do? They blatantly make the items a bit over the edge at first to see how much they need to tune them down.
the changes they need is to revert a lot changes
PD giving 12% ms when it was removed in 2012 PD giving random damage reduction lot of healing going to adc, with 20% damage reduction on death's dance LW being only good against tanks giant burster? what the fuck? what was the design of this item? fuck everyone who get health like veigar's syndrom?
there is a lot of bullshit right now not counting the price of every mage items being increased to 3200
Guy Fox Teemo5 votesItem costs got increased due to, increased gold generation in the game (Your going to get the items around the same, time, since your going to be getting more gold quicker)
LW was nerfed, so it was only good against tanks, which should be the intended purpose.
KONO RUBICK DA5 votesItem costs got increased due to, increased gold generation in the game (Your going to get the items around the same, time, since your going to be getting more gold quicker)
LW was nerfed, so it was only good against tanks, which should be the intended purpose.
explain why only mages and tanks are getting an increased of gold due to this? why only BRK and BT only getting a price increased in adc items? LW going to multiple efficient items (even gamebreaking), PD costing 2700 gold for 40% as, 30% crit, 12% ms, 12% damage reduction, hurricane, ect...
darkchan51 votesthe reason they got increased costs (and they werent the only ones, see bork, bloodthirster, berserkers greaves, elixer of wrath, manamune, ravenous hydra, and youmuu's ghostblade.) is because their items were all cheaper a typical adc build cost 1000 more gold than an apc build and 2000 gold more than a tank build
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesthe reason they got increased costs (and they werent the only ones, see bork, bloodthirster, berserkers greaves, elixer of wrath, manamune, ravenous hydra, and youmuu's ghostblade.) is because their items were all cheaper a typical adc build cost 1000 more gold than an apc build and 2000 gold more than a tank build
ghostblade was never built by adc and it no longer gives CRIT it's totaly worthless on ADC., hydra can't be built by adc what the fuck are you even reading the effect? same for manamune, ez is the only one building it varus builds it with a poke build.
darkchan51 votesfirst off, muramana is built by urgot and ezreal; ghostblade is built by graves and lucian.
second, that wasn't what the post was about, leading me to say what the fuck are you even reading?
Vermonster13 votesThats bullshit. LW wasn't nerfed at all, look at what it builds into. Every class of champion EXCEPT adc builds some health into their builds, including 90% of the playable ap carry builds. That tank killer item is gonna make adc do 15% bonus damage to everybody who isn't a glass cannon. Aka it punishes you for not building glass cannon on your champion. Nothing to do with "only good against tanks". Also the 40% bonus armor meets 35% total armor relatively equally if any defensive armor item is built. Meaning if an adc gets fed, and you want to counter it by building armor, your armor is virtually useless against them. It changes the entire gold efficiency of tank items. But tanks are already fucked due to the nerf to all their items followed by these bullshit cost increases. RIP 
. Don't worry is still waiting for the promised buff from when they fucked him in the jungle and said they wouldn't forget about him. Now every item he wants cost more on top of being nerfed.
Anidan3 votesThe only thing I'm posting for is that 40% bonus armor doesn't pierce the same amount of armor as 35% total armor for a long time, as in pretty much ever. It's only 5% more piercing, and only against bonus armor, which not all champions build a ton of. It's a huge nerf against squishies, and still a nerf against many tanky champions (particularly bruisers who aren't going to stack up to 300 armor).
The rest I have no comment on.
Kynami3 votesThe problem being that ONE mastery in the new season...
Precision (from Cunning tree) Gain 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3 + 0.06/.12/.18/.24/.3 per level Armor and Magic Penetration.
3 x 18 = 54... that is FIFTY FOUR FLAT PEN AT 18th level against armor. Which of course can be combined with your purchased items and Runes. So with the right page you can end up with something to the tune of 80+ flat pen to go with 40% bonus armor pen.
Tell me again where your armor is...
LankPants1 votes3 x 18 = 54... that is FIFTY FOUR FLAT PEN AT 18th level against armor
You dropped a decimal point. That's 0.3x18=5.4, add the 3 flat to that and you get 8.4.
Dreamspitter1 votesThats bullshit. LW wasn't nerfed at all, look at what it builds into. Every class of champion EXCEPT adc builds some health into their builds, including 90% of the playable ap carry builds. That tank killer item is gonna make adc do 15% bonus damage to everybody who isn't a glass cannon. Aka it punishes you for not building glass cannon on your champion. Nothing to do with "only good against tanks". Also the 40% bonus armor meets 35% total armor relatively equally if any defensive armor item is built. Meaning if an adc gets fed, and you want to counter it by building armor, your armor is virtually useless against them. It changes the entire gold efficiency of tank items. But tanks are already fucked due to the nerf to all their items followed by these bullshit cost increases. RIP
#No One Remembers:
WolfBV1 votesthe changes they need is to revert a lot changes
PD giving 12% ms when it was removed in 2012 PD giving random damage reduction lot of healing going to adc, with 20% damage reduction on death's dance LW being only good against tanks giant burster? what the fuck? what was the design of this item? fuck everyone who get health like veigar's syndrom?
there is a lot of bullshit right now not counting the price of every mage items being increased to 3200
The changes to phantom dancer make me sad. I like to play AD champs but all these little bonuses are difficult for me to understand why.
ihaveapotion3 votesNerfs are a good thing, almost always. It creates diversity and more room for thought in a match, oh wait.. they are buffing the already op role (vayne/jinx will probably just literally penta everything every day) Better not pick a tank, only thing thats going to work against the ultraroid adc is op hard cc, think fiddlesticks and lissandra etc. Oh wait ap is nerfed nvm. all 5 adc on the map then i guess.
Reaper Soraka2 votesI think it sounds fun. Do you want to keep playing the game as it is right now? I don't like the Talisman changes, but I'm sure I'll find my way.
KONO RUBICK DA43 votesI think it sounds fun. Do you want to keep playing the game as it is right now? I don't like the Talisman changes, but I'm sure I'll find my way.
it's funny because adc are already picked in every games all they needed was kit changes and some item variety like nerfing ie
they didn't need to nerf anyone and buff them
fwL7umeoQe2 votesNerfing IE wouldn't do shit. ADC's would still buy it anyway because they barely have any choice. Unless you're Corki, Kalista, Ezreal it's the same thing every game. Everybody I see complaining about this patch has literally no experience with adc. They just know you click things and do big damage.
KONO RUBICK DA15 votes[{quoted}](name=Catch This,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8kzE8l3,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-30T14:09:49.628+0000)
Nerfing IE wouldn't do shit. ADC's would still buy it anyway because they barely have any choice. Unless you're Corki, Kalista, Ezreal it's the same thing every game. Everybody I see complaining about this patch has literally no experience with adc. They just know you click things and do big damage.
yea, that's why when IE used to be shit everyone was taking BT instead, yea true nerfing IE has no effect IE should be a must pick on ADC, that isn't a problem because IE is the deathcap of ADC. what isn't ok is marksmen rushing it, did you saw one time a mage rushing rabadon?
in the end of the day, riot made a good job at making adc unique, they also made a good job at making them not taking only IE first.
Their work on items however are bullshit, PD didn't need 12% damage reduction, death dance reducing damage wasn't needed, Tanks didn't need to be fucked even more with giant's slayer. all those changes were meant to make them dominant.
fwL7umeoQe2 votesYou CANNOT compare those two items. Mages don't rush deathcap because it has no sustain and it scales off of your AP. There's nothing to scale off of if you build it first, and you will have terrible sustain. IE gave you things an ADC actually needs like crits and damage that doesn't scale off of your stats.
Riot isn't trying to make them "dominant". They are trying to buff them back into relevancy because for the past season, it has been only Vayne, Kalista, Jinx. Besides those champions, it was a pathetic role. Mid jungle and top carried more games than adc. There is a downside to having all that damage though, ADC's are squishy glowing red targets to everyone, and a while back tanks and juggernauts could 1v1 them with ease.
It's the first fucking day of these PBE changes, they aren't final, and they have a long time to be tested. Relax with this "every role is dead" garbage. People say that after every big patch and it always ends up the same.
KONO RUBICK DA3 votes[{quoted}](name=Catch This,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8kzE8l3,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-30T14:26:07.565+0000)
You CANNOT compare those two items. Mages don't rush deathcap because it has no sustain and it scales off of your AP. There's nothing to scale off of if you build it first, and you will have terrible sustain. IE gave you things an ADC actually needs like crits and damage that doesn't scale off of your stats.
Riot isn't trying to make them "dominant". They are trying to buff them back into relevancy because for the past season, it has been only Vayne, Kalista, Jinx. Besides those champions, it was a pathetic role. Mid jungle and top carried more games than adc. There is a downside to having all that damage though, ADC's are squishy glowing red targets to everyone, and a while back tanks and juggernauts could 1v1 them with ease.
It's the first fucking day of these PBE changes, they aren't final, and they have a long time to be tested. Relax with this "every role is dead" garbage. People say that after every big patch and it always ends up the same.
they don't need to nerf everyone to make them relevancy. past season was only vayne and jinx because adc were all the same, achieving late game and fight you just had to pick the stronger one.
Now, kog wrecks hard tanks, graves is a bruiser adc who brings both tankiness and carry damage.
but you know, there are some things that were removed in the past like PD huge ms because "5 ms make a difference for adc" why are they bringing the 12% ms?
KaisadiIIa2 votesBecause right now basically every champion gets a ridiculous amount of mobility from everywhere. Back in the days Miss Fortune was considered a mobile carry while now she's an immobile one. Not saying this is good or bad, just pointing out that they've changed their philosophy and they are giving much more MS than they'd never do in the past.
Silents4293 votesYou are grossly oversimplifying this, Marksmen had no variety with items.
This isn't a matter of nerf IE and force people to pick something else, it's the build paths all sucked and a lot of the items simply made no sense in the context of an ADC, a lot of them weren't picked because they flat out sucked and had better, removing what's better doesn't make something not suck.
So the Item changes are needed.
Voluug132 votesYes, but not ALL the changes are needed. Bruisers didnt need BC and Tri butchered for them. AP itemization DID NOT need nerfs. And some of the changes like the PD 12% are utterly and complete BS. They are basically giving extra tools for adcs to be extra dominant.
One thing is reworking the kits and some item variety. Another very different is to nerf every other role and add some very broken things to the ADC arsenal.
Build variety should be naturaly achieved with the more kit variety ADCs will bring, helped by some item changes.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesYou are grossly oversimplifying this, Marksmen had no variety with items.
This isn't a matter of nerf IE and force people to pick something else, it's the build paths all sucked and a lot of the items simply made no sense in the context of an ADC, a lot of them weren't picked because they flat out sucked and had better, removing what's better doesn't make something not suck.
So the Item changes are needed.
amazing, now they will have more item diversity
what does nerfing mages,bruisers,tanks have to do with it?
Silents4291 votesDo you not know how balance works? Any change made anywhere has a ripple affect that can change everything else in the game, Buffing an ADC can bring forth new ADCs to be meta that counter said ADC, as well as differently picked junglers that either go well or go well against that now buffed ADC. And now that the Jungle switched a new role Top lines switches a new role out too.
Because of the 1 buff making an ADC played now, items might be picked now that weren't picked before, and very easily the meta gets shifted ever so slightly.
There is no way in hell they could rework and ENTIRE ROLE that has been the center focus of the game for 6 years without having to adjust the other roles.
Dreamspitter1 votesYou are grossly oversimplifying this, Marksmen had no variety with items.
This isn't a matter of nerf IE and force people to pick something else, it's the build paths all sucked and a lot of the items simply made no sense in the context of an ADC, a lot of them weren't picked because they flat out sucked and had better, removing what's better doesn't make something not suck.
So the Item changes are needed.
Items made no sense like.......what?
Silents4291 votesThink 
To clarify, I mean some of the items made no sense to get outside the normal 6 that every ADC got.
Dreamspitter1 votesThink
To clarify, I mean some of the items made no sense to get outside the normal 6 that every ADC got.
Even on Jayce?
Silents4291 votesI think Jayce is classified as an AD caster, not a marksmen.
The item was originally made for champions like 
but it never caught on.
Kuroi861 votesall they needed was kit changes and some item variety like nerfing ie
They're getting kit changes. Ie is getting (sort of) nerfed. The new items though will actually give ADC more variety when it comes to builds instead of just IE, boots, Shiv/PD, LW, BT/Bork, GA. And yes, I know not all ADC build that way, but it's the standard crit build and it's been far too dominant among marksmen since the BT IE changes. At least now you'll see a few different builds, maybe have some slightly more off meta choices for marksmen and see some interesting new tricks.
Not to mention, anything made for the marksmen is going to find some play with assassins and bruisers. Heck, look at Deaths Dance, tell me you can't see a half dozen AD assassins and bruisers using that.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesThey're getting kit changes. Ie is getting (sort of) nerfed. The new items though will actually give ADC more variety when it comes to builds instead of just IE, boots, Shiv/PD, LW, BT/Bork, GA. And yes, I know not all ADC build that way, but it's the standard crit build and it's been far too dominant among marksmen since the BT IE changes. At least now you'll see a few different builds, maybe have some slightly more off meta choices for marksmen and see some interesting new tricks.
Not to mention, anything made for the marksmen is going to find some play with assassins and bruisers. Heck, look at Deaths Dance, tell me you can't see a half dozen AD assassins and bruisers using that.
assassins and bruisers won't heal as much as adc with lifesteal i agree with you, their kit changes are amazing, nerfing IE is amazing, giving PD random damage reduction and giving MS back isn't, as well as increasing every items cost in the game except adc's item (except BT and BRK).
they didn't need random buffs or every classes to be nerfed, they also didn't need +5AD at lvl 1
Kuroi861 votesassassins and bruisers won't heal as much as adc with lifesteal
Assassins don't need to heal, they just pop people. Bruisers I expect may start running Mortal Reminder for their third/fourth item.
The change to PD makes it even more of a duelist item, it allows the ADC a little more dueling power while making them have to pick their target in team fights more carefully (remember it only gives you damage reduction against the last champ you hit, and % damage reduction really only becomes effective when you've got some resistances first).
increasing every items cost in the game
Note though, gold generation is going to be at an all time high for every class now. It may even out, I don't know, I've not played enough with the changes to say.
they didn't need random buffs or every classes to be nerfed, they also didn't need +5AD at lvl 1
The champs that got buffed needed something to give them clearer identities or to add more synergy to their kits, this wasn't random, this was work that the champs needed. Also that +5 AD at lvl 1 comes at a cost of AD per lvl, this results in less AD at lvl 18, combo this with lower AD values all around and what do you get?
Some champs got indirectly nerfed by the changes, to say every other class got nerfed though is unfair and is missing so many of the other changes going on.
There is a lot that is going to change, is it going to be perfectly balanced on release? Probably not, PBE only has so many people on it and there's no way to find every possible exploit until it hits live (heck even then we're still learning new ones). Just don't count Riot out and act like everyone just got gutted, that isn't the case, Riot is shaking things up as usual, we've just got to see where things fall and expect they will balance things as they fall.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesAssassins don't need to heal, they just pop people. Bruisers I expect may start running Mortal Reminder for their third/fourth item.
The change to PD makes it even more of a duelist item, it allows the ADC a little more dueling power while making them have to pick their target in team fights more carefully (remember it only gives you damage reduction against the last champ you hit, and % damage reduction really only becomes effective when you've got some resistances first).
Note though, gold generation is going to be at an all time high for every class now. It may even out, I don't know, I've not played enough with the changes to say.
The champs that got buffed needed something to give them clearer identities or to add more synergy to their kits, this wasn't random, this was work that the champs needed. Also that +5 AD at lvl 1 comes at a cost of AD per lvl, this results in less AD at lvl 18, combo this with lower AD values all around and what do you get?
Some champs got indirectly nerfed by the changes, to say every other class got nerfed though is unfair and is missing so many of the other changes going on.
There is a lot that is going to change, is it going to be perfectly balanced on release? Probably not, PBE only has so many people on it and there's no way to find every possible exploit until it hits live (heck even then we're still learning new ones). Just don't count Riot out and act like everyone just got gutted, that isn't the case, Riot is shaking things up as usual, we've just got to see where things fall and expect they will balance things as they fall.
except that they won't, FOR GOD SAKE READ THE CHANGES, banshee +500 hp, death dance 20% damage reduction that are dealt as a dot but it doesn'"t matter since they will have +40% lifesteal and 15% healing from crit(and even spell vamp). phantom dancer gives 12% reduction, it seems like you will need 2500 damage to kill them (not counting the healing) and only rengar can manage to do while being fed.
Kuroi861 votesslow clap I didn't know marksmen would be starting with Banshees, phantom dancer and deaths dance right out of the gate.
You want to know a great over all change along with all of this neat utility the marksmen are getting? An overall AD NERF. The big AD items are weaker, marksmen are getting less AD per lvl, if you can't see the planned picture then let me paint it for you.
In return for utility that should help the ADC survive a bit longer in fights, they will overall deal less damage in return, meaning less healing and something people on these boards have been crying about for a while, weaker crits.
NOW, I end this with a very clear point.
This is the first update for the pre-season, as seen in the past, ANY and EVERYTHING can change. There WILL be need for updates to better balance the changes to come but to assume that what you see is what we're going to get is asinine.
Now take a chill pill, we don't even know how the changes yet in place will affect things and there's no sense in freaking out so soon.
Stillname2 votesThere are so many posts on the new changes.... why? I know you haven't tried them, and even if you had tried them and tried them enough to figure out the new meta under them...
In order to make a huge change to the game like this Riot has to be able to make mistakes on it.... or they could leave the game like it is... and it could get boring... and then we could move onto something else.
BlunterMonk4 votesConsidering Riot only exists because of the players, I think making these posts is necessary.
ayNigerianPrince1 votesI don't want to suffer through a whole patch of bad changes because riot is "allowed to make a mistake". Maybe you find it fun to play a game full of annoying shit that can ruin your experience of playing your champion that's not and adc, but I don't.
Stillname1 votessuffer? It's a game stop being so dramatic... if things never changed people would have stopped playing years ago. If you are actually concerned play your champion on the PBE and see what you can do... then provide some actual feedback.
Either that or you can add to the circlejerk of noise that gets nothing done.
ayNigerianPrince3 votesI don't give a shit if the game changes; it happens every patch. I give a shit when Riot introduces a bunch of new items that will make playing my role incredibly miserable. I don't need to play Shen on the PBE to know that the introduction of grievous wounds + armor pen on the same item is going to fuck things up for me. Not to mention all the other items like "ad spell vamp" and % damage reduction just to keep ADCs extra safe.
By the way, my use of the word suffer was perfectly fine. I see nothing overly dramatic about it.
BoxOfDOG1 votesWell seeing as ADCs have been completely at the bottom of the pack for the entirety of this meta, in every region.. I think buffs are pretty warranted.
Top lane is still super powerful, and now they have even more riding on their job with the Herald being introduced. Jungle is always going to be just as important as it's always been. Mid lane is pretty much exactly the same, and nerfing Zhonya's is honestly for the better. Tank items have always cost like nothing at all and promoted half-assing your cs instead of doing your best to farm. And nothing really to say on the support items.
SmokinSickStyle10 votesAre you serious?
ADCs have been a must in a team since forever, to be at the bottom, you must see no play at all, and ADC have always been played, HECK they even have a poor dude that has to play nanny just for them.
In assassin meta, mages were extinct, that's what the bottom is, in tank meta, assassins were non existant, that's what the bottom is, in the build fucking damage tanks can't tank for shit meta, tanks were never picked, people ran damage dealer top,jungle everywhere.
The only constant was and still is ranged phys damage dealer botlane + support, lately Riot tried to push ADC to the jungle with Kindred or to change the botlane with Morde, but guess what, ADC were still a must into a team, doesn't this ring you any bell?
I welcome the individual ADC changes, but overhauling an entire class of items to revolve it in favor of one role, the ADC one, is a bit too much.
manbreeze094 votesADC's are required to seige towers. Jinx and tristana are extremely popular in competitive for this reason. ADC's dont carry anything else at this point and are completely out classed in team fights/skirmishes.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesADC's are required to seige towers. Jinx and tristana are extremely popular in competitive for this reason. ADC's dont carry anything else at this point and are completely out classed in team fights/skirmishes.
competitive saw vayne and kalista picked as much as jinx and tristana, they are requiered to siege, therefore they are strong
Caezium2 votesJust because ADCs go bottom usually doesn't make them bottom of the pack. They are picked every game. Position =/= strength.