Lee Sin has a base health regeneration of 8.95 per 5 seconds. That's too high.

darkdill·Nov 17, 2014·41 votes·5,237 views

I was looking through the LoL Wiki and found this, and it made me realize that Lee Sin, with his shield and lifesteal, is not an easy opponent to make damage stick to. He can just sustain his way through it, on top of his insane maneuverability and engage range.

Maybe to nerf him (at least in lane), nerf his base health regeneration so that damage sticks more easily to him. Riot did that to Riven and Rengar, so why not Lee?

57 Comments

Fed by Snu SnuNov 17, 201459 votes

Because Lee is immune to design choices that riot takes for everyone else.

darkdillNov 17, 20145 votes

Sounds legit.

AetherKingdomNov 17, 20143 votes

not true.

JunkοNov 18, 20144 votes

Really, his kit literally has every single stat an ability could have with high ratios and you say not true?

AetherKingdomNov 19, 20141 votes

Armor/MR Invulnerable Untargetable Movespeed increase I think you should rethink your use of literally, and the only design choice Lee is immune to is making melee champions hella bad and have ridiculously easy to pull off counterplay to their ranged counterparts.

JunkοNov 19, 20141 votes

Do you want Riot to give Lee Sin armor/mr, invulnerability and untargetability on top of his sustain and more MS on top of his already high mobility?

Not to mention Lee Sin has more base MS than almost every immobile champion in the game.

AetherKingdomNov 19, 20141 votes

I never said I wanted to give him that, I was simply disproving your comment, but you seem to not understand that. That's the main thing I do on the boards anyways, tell people that they're wrong. btw base ms does not ms increase, and exaggerations do nothing to help your argument.

YfrappefortNov 17, 201417 votes

Because Lee is immune to design choices that riot takes for everyone else.

Because L$C big plays. The only reason why him and Thresh avoided real nerfs forever.

JunkοNov 18, 20141 votes

^ This

Remlap1223Nov 18, 20143 votes

Uh, I agree with Lee Sin, but I think Thresh is done for. After the nerf to his ultimate, I have not seen a Thresh in forever outside of free week.

Circuit BearNov 19, 20141 votes

It's either Thresh, Blitz or Leona for me. Really tired of them honestly.

Remlap1223Nov 19, 20141 votes

Thresh, even before nerfs, I had the least problems with because it's not an all in pull (and I found out that you can use Remove Scurvy to clear away Thresh's hooks, which is fucking HILARIOUS). Blitzcrank is toxic because of that pull and how it's basically used as an instant win button for the carry, and Leona, obviously, has too much all-in potential. Blitz needs to get a lane by himself or jungle again, and Leona can be fixed with nerfs.

Antonidas1Nov 18, 20143 votes

Truth !

Serpents EmbraceNov 18, 20142 votes

/mic drop

SerBlaiseNov 17, 201415 votes

His regen is being nerfed on the PBE:

Armor reduced to 24.216 from 26.216. Heath regeneration reduced to 7.45 from 9.45.

(from http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/VPBE)

KingsgraveNov 17, 20147 votes

His regen is being nerfed on the PBE:

Armor reduced to 24.216 from 26.216. Heath regeneration reduced to 7.45 from 9.45.

(from http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/VPBE)

Thats part of a much larger change to how base stats work throughout the game and not really a nerf or a buff.

Base stats on all champions scale non-linearly on the PBE because of a test they are working on to make level advantages not as overpowering on certain characters. Health, Armor, AD etc., are all affected stats for this.

FantasySniperNov 18, 20146 votes

Actually, since everyone's was raised by a standard, Lee Sin's will be comparatively lower.

Also, Lee Sin isn't the only one to receive changes to their stats.

ProfDrDeathNov 18, 20141 votes

No, actually, it isn't. The Lee change is, in fact, a nerf to his base HP regen. The PBE patch notes don't mention the base stat changes if they are just the changes they do to everyone.

BlackRavenNov 18, 20141 votes

His regen is being nerfed on the PBE:

Armor reduced to 24.216 from 26.216. Heath regeneration reduced to 7.45 from 9.45.

(from http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/VPBE)

after that they are going to be looking at his movement speed. these players find anyone they lose against and constantly cry about him/her to get him to go down the gutter as the adcs and ap champs roam free.

FantasySniperNov 18, 20147 votes

I detect a Lee Sin main.

Ironic use of "roam free", btw.

DrNovaNov 18, 20146 votes

His regen is being nerfed on the PBE:

Armor reduced to 24.216 from 26.216. Heath regeneration reduced to 7.45 from 9.45.

(from http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/VPBE)

Oh wow, what a nerf! Totally in line with the gutting they give any other champ who happens to be decent for a while..

UiruNov 18, 201412 votes

Lee Sin is designed to be the best champion in the game and Riot leaves him in his blatantly overpowered state intentionally. Even their flawed concepts that they cling to when needlessly nerfing lesser champions don't apply to him. He gets to build whatever he wants, and make every decision about every engage. You can do that when you have multiple gapclosers and escapes. And they won't nerf him because they "don't want to compromise a champion's identity", and the problem here is that even if that were true, Lee Sin's identity is being objectively the best top, mid, and jungler, and you'd see him go adc if one pro ever decides to do it once for a laugh. Three seasons' worth of fretting about why the jungle continues to suck and the answer- Lee Sin existing- continues to elude them. It makes you wonder if they're doing it on purpose out of spite, or accidentally out of sheer incompetence.

No qualms ever about nerfing Lux and Janna or dumpstering Sejuani and Evelynn, but Lee Sin gets a pass every single time. Which is it, Riot? Hatred for your non-BIGPLAY$ fanbase, or a refusal to even acknowledge that you have fucked up, and have continuously fucked up every patch since Lee Sin's release by not fixing him?

obligatory 'but muh skillshot' hahahahahahaha ~Uiru

TheI3igDaddyNov 18, 20146 votes

Morello said in the past that he didn't want to nerf Lee Sin meaningfully due to the incoming shitstorm from Lee's fanbase. I know, right?

Also, LCSBigPlays. Because apparently ward-hopping behind someone and pressing R is considered outplaying.

Teridax68Nov 17, 20148 votes

I think you can take this further and remove LeeSin 's lifesteal/spell vamp entirely on top of giving him terrible base regen, in exchange for a much better shield (and perhaps number buffs elsewhere). With two dashes, a shield and his kick, Lee Sin has a ton of tools to mitigate or avoid damage entirely, so his kit should be focused on him using his mobility and defenses against incoming damage, rather than just healing everything back up after getting hit. The point here shouldn't be to nerf Lee, but rather to focus his power on fewer abilities, which can then be buffed or nerfed accordingly.

AlëkNov 18, 20142 votes

I think you can take this further and remove 's lifesteal/spell vamp entirely on top of giving him terrible base regen, in exchange for a much better shield (and perhaps number buffs elsewhere). With two dashes, a shield and his kick, Lee Sin has a ton of tools to mitigate or avoid damage entirely, so his kit should be focused on him using his mobility and defenses against incoming damage, rather than just healing everything back up after getting hit. The point here shouldn't be to nerf Lee, but rather to focus his power on fewer abilities, which can then be buffed or nerfed accordingly.

This is just NOT gonna happen. reduces his capability for LC$ big play$. I wouldn't like that anyway. His power shouldnt be focused on fewer abilities, but more on what he can do with those abilities. Right now he's a tanky assassin with dps, burst utility, an AS steroid and defense steroid. 3 escapes/mobility spells (i count ult). He's just too much right now. He can play every role in the game except for ADC, and thats ONLY because he's not ranged, although with all those gapclosers he could probably beat most of them in lane. anyway LeeSin 's power needs to be conditional, not the ability to play every role in the game without changing his build or playstyle. He can build tanky while still instagibbing squishies. He can outduel most bruisers and tanks. He has strong roam capabilities, if he gets fed he's incredibly hard to shutdown. If he starts off with a bad early game it becomes very easy for him to catch back up. I can't count the number of times when i've started off 0/3 or 0/4 with him and then go on a 10 kill rampage. literally about 15 times that has happened. its obscene and he deserves nerfs.

Teridax68Nov 18, 20141 votes

This is just NOT gonna happen. reduces his capability for LC$ big play$.

But that's the point: it doesn't. Lee Sin is popular because of his potential for really cool and flashy plays, but sustain isn't flashy. A bigger shield would be a much more visible indicator of how durable Lee is, and being able to tag that shield onto an ally would reinforce his utility contribution, utility being one of the reasons he's a popular competitive pick. I think it's possible to turn Lee Sin into a champion that isn't so overbearing in the early game due to ability overload, but who can also can still be really strong, and perhaps even stronger in the mid and late game. Lee gets a lot of flak for being so mobile and for having so much utility, but I think that's what makes him awesome: his abilities do carry counterplay, and allow for a huge amount of skill expression. What he needs is a genuine weakness, which his current kit doesn't really have, but which could be added through terrible sustain: Lee Sin's playstyle is dive-heavy and involves a lot of risk, but his current high regen and inbuilt sustain allows him to recover safely from any damage he receives. Without this sustain, he'd get punished harder for getting hurt, but with a better shield he'd also be able to mitigate far more damage in combat.

AkabaneKunNov 18, 20147 votes

350 ms for one of the most mobile champs in the game, just cuz right?

iamthegoatofwarNov 18, 20145 votes

Take into account he has 2 dashes a knock back, slow, and can wall jump like no other person I know I'd say it helps a bit.

tempname41567489Nov 18, 20147 votes

Lee Sin is what happens when the focus of the game is fun to watch over fun to play.

KingsgraveNov 17, 20145 votes

I'm all for rebalancing and nerfing Lee Sin, but base stats doesn't do anything but make him worse for people that aren't pros. Difficult champions need more complex nerfs than just base stats or removing properties. He lost Attack Speed slow from E and he still didn't drop in play. That should tell you that until they make REAL changes nothing will happen to him in high level.

Reducing base stats only makes him even harder to play optimally and efficiently, which is all well and good for someone besides Lee but I honestly think his problems lie elsewhere. He already averages a 44-45% winrate in Ranked at all levels of play. Gets to around 45-46% at Diamond. This will only make him go even lower yet he will still be picked for competitive as much as he is already.

Rengar has one of the lowest base health regens in the game and is still highly played in tournaments. Rengar has virtually the same winrate as Lee Sin as well and you probably saw how prevalent he is in Korea and in competitive in general.

If anything reducing base stats only makes the character impossible to play efficiently outside of high Diamond+.

The only way to fix Lee is what they attempted to do a while back, shift all of his ratios to Total AD instead of Bonus and directly influence his power curve to fit how he is actually picked and played. Make him slightly more forgiving to the general playerbase but reduce a lot of his abuse cases. With those changes he would have still been picked just as much and used just as well in Competitive, even with all the uproar.

ZoofNov 17, 201410 votes

While I agree with you final paragraph, you said Lee Sin's win rate is bad, yet my main Lb, had a major part of her power removed even though her win rate was abysmal. Personally I dislike using win rate to justify nerfs. Considering Lee Sin was "nerfed into unviability" twice, it goes to show how absurd he is with his continually high pick rate.

KingsgraveNov 18, 20144 votes

While I agree with you final paragraph, you said Lee Sin's win rate is bad, yet my main Lb, had a major part of her power removed even though her win rate was abysmal. Personally I dislike using win rate to justify nerfs. Considering Lee Sin was "nerfed into unviability" twice, it goes to show how absurd he is with his continually high pick rate.

Im not saying don't nerf Lee Sin, I'm saying just reducing his base stats won't do anything but make him harder for everyone but pros to play.

You can nerf Lee Sin all you want, but until you actually address his real concerns his winrate for everyone besides pros will just drop and one of the most popular and loved champions will feel awful to play as.

Honestly Lee, LB, Rengar should all have low winrates due to how difficult they are to play, but nerfing base stats is the wrong way to go for changes regarding difficult characters.

BlackRavenNov 18, 20141 votes

While I agree with you final paragraph, you said Lee Sin's win rate is bad, yet my main Lb, had a major part of her power removed even though her win rate was abysmal. Personally I dislike using win rate to justify nerfs. Considering Lee Sin was "nerfed into unviability" twice, it goes to show how absurd he is with his continually high pick rate.

Im not saying don't nerf Lee Sin, I'm saying just reducing his base stats won't do anything but make him harder for everyone but pros to play.

meanwhile orianna and lucian

Riv x KobeNov 18, 20142 votes

which is all well and good for someone besides Lee

That's the point.

Also look at LeBlanc. You can't use low Winrate as a defense anymore after what she went through.

KingsgraveNov 18, 20141 votes

which is all well and good for someone besides Lee

That's the point.

Also look at LeBlanc. You can't use low Winrate as a defense anymore after what she went through.

Its not a defense. If you just lower base regen on Lee Sin it only makes him harder to play. It doesn't solve any of the problems as to why people find him "broken" or "abusable" or why he is just spammed in competitive.

LB, Lee etc., should have low winrates because they are hard to play. Thats what Winrates indicate.

DryditchNov 18, 20145 votes

My issue is that this matchup should not come out in Lee's Favor: LeeSin V Malphite

Level 1 trade-- Two Qs from Malphite, a dash from Lee Sin. Mal at 1/2 health after a dash/auto and then disengage. Lee at 7/8 health after two Qs from an AP Malphite.

Level 2 tower-dive--about a second later, Mal is under turret. Lee dashes, smacks (Eats a QE combo), and runs away, eating two turret shots. Mal dies, Lee at 1/2 health.

Something there is fundamentally broken. That much damage plus that much mobility is just completely unacceptable.

Now, that's just a matchup I had recently, and I'm sure it sounds like I'm bitching, but them's the facts. That's an absurd power imbalance, considering I had taken 9/21 masteries for that fight on an inherently tanky champion, and still got two-comboed by a level 1/2 Lee Sin at no risk to him.

NarasimhaNov 18, 20141 votes

Ok, a lot of comparisons work, but this one doesn't. You're comparing Lee, a champion meant to do damage, vs Malph, a champion who is not. Malph is balanced around his innate tankiness and his ult. You literally may as well say "Why can't Lee flash ult the entire enemy team, setting up one of the deadliest comboes any team can ask for?"

DryditchNov 19, 20141 votes

Someone has never played AP Malphite. By late game, his Q does 500 damage on its own, while his ult can get up to 1,000.

Plus, that doesn't excuse the fact that Malphite should not be a champion who gets ruined by essentially four strikes.

NarasimhaNov 19, 20141 votes

Someone has never played AP Malphite. By late game, his Q does 500 damage on its own, while his ult can get up to 1,000.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think level 2 is even remotely close to late game. So now what you're trying to say "My AP Malph which is strong late game lost to Lee sin, a champion strong in the early game." Hell, did you even have any armor?

DryditchNov 19, 20141 votes

Yeah I know Mal's a late game champ and lee's early. The problem is not about who's got the stronger early game, but that Lee's early game is TOO strong.

Name me any other champion that can kill in four hits at level 1/2.

AuryielNov 18, 20145 votes

Why does Lee Sin need 1100 range on his Q? Would 900 be that bad? Why does Lee Sin need 700 range on his W? Would 500 be that bad?

You know you could go on and on and on like this about Lee Sin lol

darkdillNov 19, 20141 votes

In this case, lowering his base health regeneration is not a major nerf.

StarlighteNov 18, 20144 votes

Nerf Lee Sin? Awwww boy you did it now, here comes Morello to listen to all the Lee mains complain and bitch and then have the nerfs reverted.

delonixNov 17, 20143 votes

The health regen is too damn high.

Atro SpikerNov 18, 20142 votes

They actually buffed it with the last nerf to him. When they removed his AS slow from E, they buffed his regen to make up for the loss of jungle sustain.

X SkeletonCandyNov 18, 20142 votes

You actually expect them to do anything about Lee Sin? The Redditards wouldn't have any of it last time, why would they now?