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Karma nerf on PBE

Sir Rouge··9 votes·1,442 views

First of all, why is she getting nerfed again? Is she still a power pick in LCS? If so, whatever, fine, nerf her. But she's as balanced as a champion can get in dynamic/solo queue.

Second of all, why nerf her Renewal?! It's already her weakest empowered ability. Roughly, in a game as Karma support, I would say I use Soulflare (mantra Q) 45% of the time, Defiance (mantra E) 45% of the time and Renewal (mantra W) 10% of the time. Never have I seen Karma's heal being oppressive or even very good. If you're going to nerf her, this is a really random, wierd and useless way of doing so. It's just nerfing a subpar ability.

At least nerf it by making the initial heal 10% from 20%, and then bumping the second heal to 25% from 20% to enforce high-risk high-reward.

EDIT: I feel like I said everything I wanted to say in the comments. I don't agree that tank Karma is a busted pick at all, and I believe that this nerf misses it's goal of nerfing support Karma, where her power lies (while nerfing midlane Karma as well). Feel free to keep discussing between you guys.

22 Comments

Eedat3 votes

Never have I seen Karma's heal being oppressive or even very good

Tank Karma top lane is a problem lol. Tank Karma top lane:

Soulflare: 5%

Defiance: 15%

Renewal: 80%

Sir Rouge2 votes

No, tank Karma is not a problem. Her heal scales off AP, and her heal (that's on her ultimate only) is only 20% of missing HP twice. It's weaker than any good heal like Darius' or Illaoi's. Tank Karma top lane has a tiny play rate and has never been seen as a strong pick in solo/dynamic (except for about 2 patches early s6) nor competitive play. She doesn't have enough CC to be a good tank (if she did then maybe tank Karma would be a problem with the heal). She just has great peel and kiting, which is great for support.

Eedat1 votes

I dont understand what your problem is. You say support Karma never uses Renewal, so the change shouldnt affect her then right?

Sir Rouge1 votes

Exactly! If the problem is Karma support, then nerf something that'll affect Karma support. This is just nerfing her viability in midlane (and/or toplane).

Eedat1 votes

but these changes are aimed directly at tank Karma top lol. Its pretty busted that she can walk into her jungle, Mantra W a camp, and walk back with 30% of her HP back

Sir Rouge1 votes

So she needs to walk out of lane (prob when her lane is pushed or else she'll miss cs and lane pressure), use her ultimate, and make sure that a camp is up on her side of the map. Seems fine to me.

Besides, this is the worlds patch, aiming at the pro scene. Nobody plays tank karma top there. Nobody.

Eedat1 votes

Nobody plays Riven there either but they made changes to her too lol

Sir Rouge1 votes

They did changes to a number of champions that felt weak in pro scene just to bring them to a certain level, to make then potentially usable there.

Eedat1 votes

Changing Riven's ult damage isnt going to change her kit fundimentally and make her viable in the pro scene. This change was neccessary for Tank Karma. Dont forget that its % HP so the more health she has by building tank, the more HP she actually gets.

Add the Runic Armor mastery plus item 3065 and its busted lol

Sir Rouge1 votes

The fact that Karma can utilize HP very well doesn't make her a good tank. The pros have tried it in early S6 in dynamic queue, and then abandoned it because it wasn't good enough. If it was that great, then it would become a popular pick at some point since it was experimented with. Just like tank ekko. She has weak CC and low damage if she builds tank (for a tank). All she does is survive very well because it's missing HP, but then offers no initiation which is very important for a tank. She'll just be a tough sitting duck in teamfights compared to what the enemy tank/bruiser/mage/assassin can bring.

To be fair, you can be very successful with tank Karma if you protect your allies very well and soak damage (which is why a tank build was looked into), but in many cases it's not good enough, and that's why it's not great, nor busted.

MisterShameless1 votes

Karma's W is max a 19% heal on missing health, not max health.

So in reality, if we use her 45% cdr 7.9k build, her max heal being 19% is multiplied by 25% (spirit visage), then multiplied by 15% (ardent), then multiplied by 10% (windblessing), then another 8% (runic armor), which would range around a 30% to 35% heal tops (not 63% because its not additive and not her heal not being based off max health, but percentage).

We can also use her cheaper build if we replace her IBG with Grail and replace ardent with Forbidden Idol. The cost would be 5,900k and reduce her total multiple heal by 5%.

MisterShameless1 votes

There are much better laners who can heal better off of monsters way more than Karma can, such as olaf, fiddles, vlad, and swain. Karma doesn't get the benefit of procing her passive when attack monsters. She will take a lot of damage from monsters until she gets a reasonable amount of armor and it still takes her a while to kill the monsters since none of her damage scales on HP, but AP. She builds AP as her third or fourth item which is usually at 25 minute mark where everyone else would also have their fourth item (maybe not supports) or as early as 17 minutes if its her third completed item.

Marshbouy1 votes

But she's as balanced as a champion can get in dynamic/solo queue.

this means nothing.

Never have I seen Karma's heal being oppressive or even very good.

i too think healing 400 a proc from her mantra W is fine.

She's one of my favorite supports. It's sad to see her get nerfed but i've know for a while that she was above average...

Sir Rouge1 votes

Soraka, Janna, Braum, Nami and even maybe Sona or Bard are all above or equal to her. No nerfs for them. Plus this is not nerfing support Karma at all, it's nerfing Midlane Karma which is not a power pick at all, it's just sometimes a good pick. If support Karma is still too strong they're not addressing it at all.

Marshbouy1 votes

Soraka, Janna, Braum, Nami and even maybe Sona or Bard are all above or equal to her. No nerfs for them.

lol no. not in LCS at least. it's nerfing tank karma, not midlane karma. I was incorrect about support karma.

Sir Rouge2 votes

She only gets 1% every 100 AP. It's a big nerf to midlane Karma as well. She will need 500 AP to get what she had as a base before. And tank Karma is not a power pick anywhere.

PermabannedGaren4 votes

{quoted}

this means nothing.

Balancing around what the awkward virgins in the LCS are playing is mad lame though.

It's not even the same game. Solo queue shouldn't suffer because tank Karma provides what the idiots in the LCS need.

Marshbouy2 votes

Balancing around what the awkward virgins in the LCS are playing is mad lame though.

LMFAO

Hige1 votes

The problem isn't the skill itself, it's item 3065... this makes her heal up to 50% of her health in total without a care about how much AP you got, with the new value she only heals up to 37.5%

It's a shame really since Renewal being this strong actually shove Karma away from being a Q machine, in all honesty it gave her a much more needed depth but sadly made her OP AF.

Sir Rouge3 votes

If you find success with tank Karma, that's great.

You have to consider this though:

  • It's missing HP, not total HP, she will not heal for 50% of her health, and it's a double tap of 20%, so the second heal is less effective if her HP didn't go down again.
  • You have to use her ultimate to have a heal. It's great in lane. It's amazing in a 1v1. In a teamfight where she needs to protect her allies, peel and soak damage, not very good. Tank Karma has no initiation, and she loses her teamfight presence by using mantra W instead of Q or E.
  • Tank Karma is not a power pick. Support Karma is a great pick. This nerf barely (barely) touches support Karma.
  • Play rate under 1%. If she had a decent play rate, people would start to know how to play against tank Karma, and then bam. Capout.

This nerf will change nothing for lcs nor dynamic queue for support Karma. Just a nerf for top/mid Karma (which I fail to see how she's busted there).

Hige1 votes

well, the damage is nothing to laugh about either, and you still have AoE shields, you end up being a tank/support of sorts. I've seen Tank karmas fight 1v5 and come out victorious, not like she can take the entire enemy team on her own but she can take at least one and get out of there alive, that's what item 3027 does for you and then a item 3116 as a cherry on top for tons of health and added utility!

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Well azir has a new queen, why are we complaining? : ^)

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