The reason behind Morde balance

Decrit··5 votes·737 views

I like the Morde rework, this thread contains conspirancy and is long. Be advised.

I won' t go in the details about what i like and what i don' t like about the rework, that is not the point of the thread, but let me say that i followed hit with a lot of promise: i played him for 4 years, sometimes more intensively and sometimes less, and for me this change was a breakthrought, crushing the stigma and the cultural fixation that the community has about the meta, bringing fresh new ways to compose teams not with hipsterism but with power and efficency.

Mordekaiser is the herald of a new way to play duo lanes, where a champion different from a marksman that is able to play alone is brought ina duo lane with a support that is able to cover up his weaknesses. As we know Morde started with a low solo power and an absurd duo power, but i waited and left feedback; the communication was really few, but the concept behind it was really sound even with bad tuning; especially i disliked W, that worked only on allies and that had a rather weird passive that allows him to get full xp by minions even while sharing the experience.

For those who do not know:

Passive: Mordekaiser always gains full experience toward leveling up from minions he kills.

The changes came way after the rework release, justified by caution, and were these.

Health cost increased to 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 from 0 at all ranks. New Effect: If self-cast while no allies are nearby, you will instantly use the secondary active. Damage per second Ability power ratio increased to (+22.5% AP) from (+15% AP). Damage zones no longer overlap for double damage. Reactivation base damage increased to 70 / 95 / 120 / 145 / 170 from 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 / 130. Healing on minions lowered to 25% of reactivation damage from 33%. Maximum number of targets harvested reduced to 2 from 3.

A clear nerf to duo lanes and a much requested buff to solo lanes, which was fine... but why they rather took power out of his own mechanic rather taking away numbers from the W passive that worked well only and only in duo lanes?

Isn' t it weird? The sharing xp effect is what makes morde treathening in duo lane and is an effect that is almost totally passive ( it only requires Morde to last hit a minion ), that is not core to his gameplay theme and that does not require much interaction between him and the support! Let' s take for example the overlap damage. It was strong, too much strong i agree, but at least required interaction between him and the support. Between a passive effect that provides free power while in costant presence of an ally and an effect that empowers sinergy with an other champion on cast what' s better, or at least the lesser evil?

I felt this was really counterproductive: i would love to see different classes in duo lanes, but not only because one champion has an effect that sinergies well with the persistent presence of another ally: many champions have spells that can be used in sinergy with other champions, a stun is the simplest and most common of them for example, and morde already has the W active... why then he should have also a passive that enhances costant allied presence? What makes me cringe is also how morde could still be powerful in duo lane without that experience gain!

Then i asked myself why. Riot response was sorta bland about it, mostly on the lines of " we have to wait and see the reaction" and "we felt it appropriate".

I watched worlds lately, and i enjoyed them. Mordekaiser, obviously, almost 100% pick or ban.

And then it hit me. What if there other reasons behind balance to keep Morde this way?

No, i am not talking about LC$ or World$, to me these are arguments that are bland and lazy while i have in mind something more precise, more calculated, more clinical.

What happens if a champ in a state like Morde gets picked and banned in Worlds? It means that it makes the show different from past torunaments thanks to his precense and how players react to him, giving a sightly different experience. Not only an underdog makes his way to worlds, but also other champions can be pulled out for him - like Nunu. Which is fine, it means that the game expands itself. Also it has an impact on the culture of the playerbase: if offside picks are taken in a tournament like Worlds the become an example and it creates more creativity and variance in the queques, thus making the game more fun and diverse. Which, again, is good.

Basically, it promotes a part of the game and offers another competitive edge. Which is good.

... and if that does not happen? Playing Morde in place of a Marksman takes much more effort than playing a different champion in any other lane, and if that is not worth the strenght and the risk how many teams would decide to do that? This means that Morde while being fully playable competitively duolane does not become popular, is then labeled as a "failed project" by the community and the dogma is recreated again, throwing at the wind all the effort and the progression started with him.

How do you prevent that? By making sure he is contested and he is played the way he is more favorable to play.

There are the same benefits as i listed: a better show at worlds, an example that then will spur creativity and will entice players to try out of meta stuff with brains, maybe he will have the experience boost reduced or removed but AFTER worlds, and probably he will still be playable and competitive. What does it hurt this way, however? The competition, because now he feels like a cheat.

Please tell me your thoughts, and tell me i am wrong.

36 Comments

Big Lincoln7 votes

"play this champion bot or feed" isn't spurring creativity

they had an actual chance to make him a diverse champion and they fucked up. most mord players hate playing him, nobody likes playing against him

what's more offending is how easily they could fix this rework and their utter refusal to do it

Decrit2 votes

the concept around having a champion that is not a marksman and that can sinergize with a support is spurring creativity by itself. It' s just that Morde is so badly tuned that instead works only as you say :P

And here the point of this post: is he badly tuned on purpose? Particularly those that i listed?

Big Lincoln4 votes

he already had synergy with a support before. how has it been added? if anything they just gave him anti-synergy with himself, because he loses a significant part of his kit when not near a partner

in what way has he meaningfully changed for the better?

Decrit2 votes

Well, first of all the W now has a more meaningful power with a partner beyond the passive ( that for this discussion sake i do not even consider), while the older gave a nice bonus but was hardly appreciable: the resistance bonus was low and could be hardly exploited, the radius effect was hard to understand and use properly and the damage was low, even lower considering that you could hardly use it at full effect.

The new Q favors champions that have trouble moving, and since in many asked a cc-less Mordekaiser ( i was among them ) or a blink-dash-spped boost less one ( iw as among them too) a support bringing cc is the natural sinergy with him, while the old Q was just istant damage and did not care for that.

But, most of all, is how Mordekaiser reacts to retreats. He had alot of pushing power, but was really really weak to ganks. He managed to get out thanks to his sheer dueling power and shield generation, but that did not worked very well unless the enemy was with low health; in fact he was played mostly mid, since is the shortest lane and requires less time to reach the turret by walking. Now woth a support he has more retreat chance since a support can slow down/cc enemies, shield, give ms boosts and so on.

But yeah, baseline he was already a champion that benefitted from a support, but not enough to be considered for a botlane. Even Olaf for example can benefit a lot from a support, but is not a too much valuable pick bot yet ( and he is in fact considered a juggernaut too, i can bet he will get something on the lines of morde).

KingWanahakalugi3 votes

I don't think that's what he meant Solomon. He's talking about just having a champion as a carry bot lane that isn't a Marksman. I see people constantly complaining about the ADC meta and the fact you have to have one. Riot wanted to try to bring something completely different in, and they did. Now, I think the reason most people hate playing against him bot lane is because there are no other champs currently like him that interact with the support and objectives in the same way. I think the experience of playing against him will improve as they bring more melee carries into the bot lane. Now, they did hit solo-Kaiser hard. I will give you that, but I can understand why they chose Morde out of all the juggernauts. He was the one with the most bruiser potential out of the group. I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I think many of the Morde mains are failing to comprehend that. Many people were attacking the rework just because of who was working on it, but for the goal that Riot had with Morde there was no better person than CertainlyT. Whether you like it or not, I think he is the king of player to player interactions. He was the only one in my opinion that could have even envisioned a way to bring a non-marksman champ into the bot lane and give him a kit that would not allow him to be instantly decimated. CertainlyT made Morde a spotlight champion again rather than just a fly on the wall in an ever-expanding champ pool.

Big Lincoln5 votes

he could survive bot lane just fine before. like, there's nothing here that 'entices' him to go bot; it's forcing him there so that people will marvel at how creative they are breaking their own metas

i don't see how his W's passive promotes player-to-player interaction. his Q is whatever, boring as hell, strong as hell. W is just frustrating because i have to rely on someone that, in all honestly, doesn't know how to play with mord in order to have the damage, and i hate dealing with him because unless i somehow shove him out of lane or zone him, he's going to outlevel me no questions asked.

certainlyT made him someone nobody wants to see; and he's now someone i don't want to play. so, i won't. not much more to it than that, other than i need to find a new main

KingWanahakalugi2 votes

Jesus, your head is thicker than Morde's mace. Well you go find a new main. Meanwhile, more bruisers will find their way to bot lane and Morde will work out and you, malicious, and they other Morde whiners will fade into oblivion because SURPRISE Riot had a plan all along.

Big Lincoln4 votes

oh, no, I have an opinion that's different from yours. Better throw an insult, that'll make your shitty argument really come together

what's the issue? I don't think he's fun, I don't think he's interesting, so I don't play him. so sorry I don't agree with Riot's genius master plan

Vhalthoria1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solomon Money,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m2sJyBOA,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-06T21:45:38.220+0000)

oh, no, I have an opinion that's different from yours. Better throw an insult, that'll make your shitty argument really come together

what's the issue? I don't think he's fun, I don't think he's interesting, so I don't play him. so sorry I don't agree with Riot's genius master plan

Just ignore him. He obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. And that's not surprising at all considering he is just a poor Silver IV bud.

KingWanahakalugi1 votes

Just ignore him. He obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. And that's not surprising at all considering he is just a poor Silver IV bud.

You're right because obviously rank is everything, and people who are below gold don't know anything about the game. It couldn't be that he chooses not to play a lot of ranked. By your own logic, I don't understand why someone who hasn't even reached level 30 is allowed to have a opinion and comment.

Vhalthoria1 votes

{quoted}

You're right because obviously rank is everything, and people who are below gold don't know anything about the game. It couldn't be that he chooses not to play a lot of ranked. By your own logic, I don't understand why someone who hasn't even reached level 30 is allowed to have a opinion and comment.

The lower they are, the more likely they tend to talk up their asses.

PS. This is my NA smurf account, just to give you a heads up.

KingWanahakalugi1 votes

PS. This is my NA smurf account, just to give you a heads up. - 75% of people actually below level 30

Vhalthoria1 votes

{quoted}

  • 75% of people actually below level 30

First, try to quote properly next time. And if you indeed happened to tamper what I said then that's really rude from your part and in that case I won't be wasting more of my time with you.

Second, search for Moldredd at LAN servers if you are feeling curious. Surprisingly enough I'm on the other 25%.

And if that's not enough then tell me something to put as name in one of my rune pages for you so when I get out of work I can oblige.

Lastly, I don't have to lie about it when you can clearly see the stats checks with what I say. Morde main, until juggernaut patch which checks my post here about quitting the game which I completely will at the end of the season after I fulfill my proposed goals. My last match was almost a month ago and was with Nasus, will be playing ranked this week to avoid decay. There you have it, friend.

KingWanahakalugi1 votes

You know what, I'll take your word for it, however you are proving my point in some of the things I've said about the I'm right and you're wrong mentality. You've provided no valid point, no constructive criticism of the situation, and you're only intent so far has been to insult my rank.

Vhalthoria1 votes

{quoted}

You know what, I'll take your word for it, however you are proving my point in some of the things I've said about the I'm right and you're wrong mentality. You've provided no valid point, no constructive criticism of the situation, and you're only intent so far has been to insult my rank.

You basically started the insults, I just followed. That was the point of my first post in this thread. From there I haven't touched the subject really.

This Morde has serious issues which I'm not gonna address because I'm really tired to pointing them out for the last month in countless of other threads, so I won't talk about it here.

KingWanahakalugi1 votes

Alright have a nice day.

Big Lincoln1 votes

don't bring rank into it, that's just uncalled for. i'm just a shitter in gold 5 anyway

he has a different opinion than i do, that's all there is to it. he could stand to use insults less but w/e. if he enjoys new mord he's free to play him, just like i'm free to bitch about not liking him

Vhalthoria1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solomon Money,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m2sJyBOA,comment-id=0001000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-10-07T15:01:39.880+0000)

don't bring rank into it, that's just uncalled for. i'm just a shitter in gold 5 anyway

he has a different opinion than i do, that's all there is to it. he could stand to use insults less but w/e. if he enjoys new mord he's free to play him, just like i'm free to bitch about not liking him

I don't have issues with his opinion at all. It has more to do with his way of directing to the old Morde community or like he said, "whiners". If he pokes, he will find us. That's where my post came into play. Has nothing to do with his opinion which I have no issues respecting whatsoever.

when it comes to in-depth, however, I do tend to ignore lower rank players as most lack fundamentals when making claims.

As for this account being under 30. This is my NA smurf account. If you are curious, however, search for Moldredd at LAN.

I honestly don't think I'm just talking up my ass when it comes to Morde. Once you search for me, MAYBE, you would consider me.

That would be all. I'm not looking for fights. Just clarification as I don't want to be the villain here.

KingWanahakalugi1 votes

Solomon Money (NA) - about 17 hours ago oh, no, I have an opinion that's different from yours. Better throw an insult, that'll make your shitty argument really come together

I find it ironic that you insult my opinion after complaining that I insulted you. Oh well that's beside the point I suppose. My issue is that it is impossible to discuss this with Morde mains because their entire counter argument has been NOPE, NOPE, I'M RIGHT. YOU'RE WRONG EVEN IF YOU PRESENT VALID POINTS. YOU'VE NEVER PLAYED MORDE A DAY IN YOUR LIFE. HUE. Morde was my very first main. I love him, and I like him more now than I did before. My favorite part of the champ was controlling the pet and the belief that a strong offense was the best defense. Now whether I have a dragon for a pet or another summoner, I'm having a good time, and having someone to lock down an enemy while I watch their health bar disappear is fun in itself. The other thing is you complain that Riot won't listen to you or discuss the subject with you. Well guess what? Even if you're not doing it yourself people are tearing Riot apart anytime they touch the subject. You and Malicious try to provide helpful feedback on Morde, but Riot doesn't want to read the boards because everyone else harasses them while they're trying to have a conversation with you. You might have better luck if you convinced your supporters to keep their comments in check so Riot doesn't feel like they're walking into a trap of verbal abuse anytime they try to comment or defend their decisions.

Oh and keep the downvotes coming kinda proves my point.

Big Lincoln2 votes

i don't think we're going to agree on what riot's done with him at any point right now, so it's best to leave it at that. i'm glad you enjoy him more now, i really am, but i don't, and i don't agree with riot or certainlyT's vision for him, so I'm just not gonna play him. maybe i circlejerk about it too much on the boards, and you're probably right to call me out for it, but i'm probably gonna keep doing it. so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that

i haven't downvoted you though

KingWanahakalugi1 votes

We can agree to disagree. And the downvoting comment wasn't specified directly at you it's just where it ended up. It was directed at the community as a whole.

Vhalthoria1 votes

{quoted}

Jesus, your head is thicker than Morde's mace. Well you go find a new main. Meanwhile, more bruisers will find their way to bot lane and Morde will work out and you, malicious, and they other Morde whiners will fade into oblivion because SURPRISE Riot had a plan all along.

Forgot to bring the popcorn as you are putting such a great show!

TacoTheKitten4 votes

I personally think that they just made him broken so that the Kalista pick/ban slot was taken up by him, so Kalista got played in worlds for those #LCSBigPlays

KingWanahakalugi2 votes

Careful when you say you like the Morde Rework, I get shredded whenever I even try.

Decrit2 votes

Yeah, everyone' s like "It' s time to shred".

At least i wrote it early so anyone can see it with mousehover, probably they will be merciful D:

KingWanahakalugi2 votes

Yep. I wouldn't worry about today so much. You might get downvoted to oblivion as soon as Malicious Metal gets his hands on you though. Oh well...best of luck to ya.

Mordepool3 votes

{quoted}

Careful when you say you like the Morde Rework, I get shredded whenever I even try.

Cause its more toxic/ feast and famine. Both things Morde mains wanted fixed not made worse.

dannykun2 votes

TBH his rework wasn't too much of an overhaul, but his q is what's really getting everyone worked up. The extreme ratio on it is a little excessive, if they toned that down I'd say he could easily get rebuffed and balanced in the rest of his kit. Also not consuming his ult for dragon is not a good thing either considering dragons power at all stages of the game.

He was just given a ton of uneccesary power, and sure he's great now. However, Unless They buff ADC's in the same way where he can challenge them, and doesn't completely turn the game in his favor the second he's picked, he's simply voiding one of the more vital roles in game. He just needs a few number tweaks to make him a lane bully and not a full on game changer.

Decrit2 votes

While being a lane bully is alright his W xp increase is so terribly powerful that, while not really flashy as a 3-hit Q gives to him a lot of power. Mostly, gives to him a lot of duo-lane only power, and that makes people flip out the most and decides what he is and what he isn' t when talking about using his powers properly. As you rightfully said, the marksman situation does not help this.

Also is a thing that is barely counterable since all he needs is farming, while Q can be timed and countered in many ways ( but is still very very strong, i agree on that).

also i did a lot of edits. is late here xP

dannykun1 votes

Lane bully's usually have poor scaling potential into late game. MF and Cait are good examples of ADC's that just aren't as powerful once lane is over as many of their other counterparts, and pick up a middle of the pack late game.

If Mord had this kind of offset where his late game simply didn't match that of an ADC's then you could use a peel support along with a late game Carry to stall till your ADC surpasses his power, but his q damage gives him extremely late game power with little downside once you've got a rylai's to keeps your target in check.

Decrit2 votes

well, this can depend honestly, for example Mordekaiser doe snot scale that well with items. Yes, Q is absurd, but he can't afford to build pure damage like a carry.

I agree however that he has too much lane bully potential, that because the W allows him to have a lot of experience no matter how much he gets stomped. This is also why i despise that passive.

dannykun2 votes

The passive could be ok so long as his q takes a bit of a hit, then you would see a lot more stall lanes like janna/nami/thresh and any Late game ADC like jinx/vayne/kog used as an effective counter, and he would be a lot stronger against the Burstier ADC's like ez/lucian/graves. He can easily have a place in the Bot meta, it's just that he's a bit too strong ATM.

Decrit1 votes

I mean the passive of the W, not the passive passive

dannykun2 votes

I know, as much as it seems like a terribly oppressive passive, it's fine so long as there's something you can do about it. You only get 18 levels. so it's not like it's powerful all throughout the game. it's useless once he reaches lvl 18, and like I said if they nerf his q values to be reasonable and not as effective as it is right now late game he'd be countered by champs that scale well into late game. his ult isn't that great even in a duo lane, so reaching lvl 6 before other champs isn't the end of the world, so stalling him out would be the best method, just keep farming and you'll simply outdamage him later on, it's a very simple counter to his w's passive.

Decrit1 votes

ehm... not all games end at level 18, and quickly gaining levels over the enemy in lane means a much steadier source of power, that then can translate in more enemy kills, that feed then on Mordekaiser. Also waiting for level 18 to go even in power is not really that nice counterplay, since you wait at least 30+mins and in the meantime he can get dragons, barons and towers. I agree that having or not a level more is not the end of the world and that you cand eal with it, but having level 6 before the enemy can be devastating!

The ult is less dangerous than in solo scenarios where it gives a lot of duel power, yes... but still, receiving a gank, getting the enemy ghost, kill the other in a 4v1 and then do dragon and siege the enemy towers with its soul is scary, even if it is not sure.

dannykun1 votes

lvl 18 isn't when hypercarries outscale him, they usually have a powerhouse ability that needs a few items bought to be abused. Vayne needs bork to abuse silver bolts, jinx only needs to max q and get PD/SS and IE and she's got way more damage than mord especially if she's got max rank at lvl 9, bork for Koggy's shred. It's not that at lvl 18 an ADC should outdamage him, but rather these ADC's need to build a few items to get a spike in power that makes them stronger than mord.

Stalling him out is a perfectly legitament strategy. Janna Nami and Karma are easily his worst nightmare, Karma not so much but nami and janna for sure. If they grab a Coin, all they have to do is peel and make sure that their carry gets farmed up, keeping mord from getting kills is the most assured counter to his playstyle. So grabbing strong disengage supports is probably the one thing that everyone's missing.

He just needs to be put back into the mid-game scaling by weakening his q a bit. In that way if he gets ahead, he can still take advantage of it, but if the enemy plays it safe, he'll fall behind and be easier to deal with. lvl advantages can only pull him so far, He still needs items to really be successful, and poking him is easy considering range differences (mords longest range ability siphon is still shorter than any ADC's base attack range, making a good adc able to kite and keep away from him while harrassing him if he goes to creep.)

The power of his q and the scaling given is his biggest problem right now, if they could make it useful but scale it back, he'd be in a managable position, where stall tactics would be the easiest counter to him.

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