How to fix Talon, Quinn and Wukong

Irelia Bot·Jul 7, 2018·42 votes·13,040 views

Delete Duskblade.

Yes I know a few other champs like Rengar and Zed might suffer form this but they can be buffed if needed.

76 Comments

Madsin25Jul 7, 201836 votes

Rengar and zed need to suffer.

Just because they aren't the best champs in the game doesn't mean they are trash.

y0r1ckJul 7, 20189 votes

Can we at least try to hide this bias against assassins

SoarinJCJul 8, 20187 votes

Why? They're inherently toxic champions whose main goal is to not allow others to play or enjoy the game. I feel like that merits a little distaste at least.

ShablagooJul 8, 20181 votes

Dont burst mages serve the same purpose too? They burst the target as fast as possible, yet they arent seen as toxic.

SoarinJCJul 8, 20186 votes

Clearly you've never seen any of the posts made about zoe, lb, akali, katarina, brand, or veigar.

Off Meta EvanJul 8, 20181 votes

zoe akali, kat, and LB are all assassins, the amount of burst and mobility is assassin levels we all know it. The design for a mage should be "0 mobility, high damage, has a cc move that prevents people from getting on them/ can be used to set up for their combo/ catch people out."

SoarinJCJul 8, 20181 votes

I forgot that mages and assassins are mutually exclusive, my bad [zombie-brand-facepalm] My only criteria for being a mage was that they did primarily AP damage. Riot threw out the correct formula for mages a long time ago, as they have with the formula for many other classes in favor of creating high apm flashy kits designed to impress crowds without caring about overall balance.

Off Meta EvanJul 9, 20181 votes

Well i personally believe that mages and assassins should be mutually exclusive. Not saying that they are but i think they should be, hybrid class champs are always messes to balance cough cough graves. cough.

ShablagooJul 8, 20181 votes

Its kinda ridiculous to say that they are toxic, because in reality their are high priority targets that need to be focused. That is these champions job to make sure those high priority targets dont run rampant. Just because these champions dont make it easy for them doesnt make them toxic.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 8, 20181 votes

Yeah, burs mages delete the guy too, EXEPT THE PART WHERE THEY USE 300 DASHES AND 10000000000 MOVIMENT SPEED TO REPOSITION THEMSELVES QUICKER THAN I CUM

Bob the ToastrJul 7, 201812 votes

Or at least make Stormrazor and Duskblade mutually exclusive.

ValiantKillerJul 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m1LPHOL2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-07T20:22:08.629+0000)

Or at least make Stormrazor and Duskblade mutually exclusive.

That what i have been saying for while, make them have same passive so both doesn't proc together.

RagnaveilJul 7, 20188 votes

Or just return to old Duskblade (the one that left a mark that then detonated. Make the duration till detonation 1.25 sec (something like that) so then it gives time for people to survive or just die afterward. Having current Duskblade making Rengar R become the presence of death to anyone on the map SOUNDS nice, but in reality just makes him a pain in the ass to deal with. Combined with the heal on w, yada yada yada you get the point. Deleting an item only makes sense if it is warping the game extremely (take banner for example).

YourAreMyQueenJul 7, 20184 votes

https://imgur.com/a/PSSTPxN

Yeah, only if it is warping the game completely like doing 3/4 of peoples hp from halfway down the map right?

My Waifu VanillaJul 8, 20181 votes

Nice Zhonya's. Nice Bard ultimate.

Keep in mind in this same clip Camille and Fiddle almost 2v4'd the rest of the team.

SoarinJCJul 8, 20181 votes

Did you just say... "nice zhonyas"... to a Jhin? What kind of Jhin builds zhonyas? As a matter of fact, what champion that doesn't build ap or off-tank builds zhonyas, even against assassins? Even with GA, you only have it up every 5 minutes, and you can only use the stopwatch once. Also, there isn't even a Camille in this clip?!!?!?!?!?! Admittedly, the bard ult might have saved him, but it's very unlikely since Noct would still have the duskblade passive up and be in auto range of Jhin.

RagnaveilJul 9, 20181 votes

Issue is Assassins when behind even with that item will still suffer and do meaningless damage originally. Riot put a lot of power back into the kits by nerfing the proc damage, but the issue lies in the fact assassins with this item are opened up to more burst in their kit and have more damage to assist the weakened proc. Reverting it back to old Dusk allows for counterplay without the need of having to remove the item all together. Remove it, and you would have to replace it with something equally good considering assassins only have 3 leth items (and they mainly build two.)

RainXBladeJul 8, 20181 votes

I agree. I miss the old Duskblade and it was much healthier to deal with since the dmg on the item was delayed, making it so that you can actually react to it.

French CourtesanJul 8, 20183 votes

Rengar and Zed they can be buffed if needed.

BOI.

Christ SuperstarJul 7, 20182 votes

Hell, I'd like for both Duskblade and Stormrazor to be removed - lethality and thunderlords are strong enough in themselves, and following underperforming champions can be brought up to snuff.

KoKobotoJul 7, 20182 votes

Fuck Quinn

SteelflameJul 8, 20182 votes

Duskblade in it's entirety could use a rework.

Having assassins damage output be amped up (Especially with quite a few who have damage multipliers for it or the ability to hard reset it (Zed, Shaco, Kayn, Wukong, Kha'zix, Talon, Pyke, and even Quinn and Graves when in situations where it is a 1v1 with no other vision sources around) on something as basic as an auto isn't healthy, and they have to become balanced around it. Which means they either become more feast or famine generally, as they become powerful with the item, but weak without it. The fact that it further plays into the vision game in THREE ways makes it overkill, and too mandatory a rush. (For those who don't know the 3 ways, first is ward disable while moving though the area once procced, second is the ability to reveal and kill said wards instantly, and the third is permanent passive ward/"vision" detection from Nightstalker).

The item does too much by itself. It would be healthier to split it into 2 seperate items, the Duskblade (Blackout passive CD reduced to 45, keep ward instakills, remove the proc entirely), and the Duskblade proc moved onto a new Lethality item. Said item would change the proc to after 3 seconds out of combat, reset proc, and otherwise be similar in nature. Splitting the anti-vision assassin item and the duskblade proc one means there is an actual choice into what you opt into, rather than just being shoehorned into one, and removes the largest chunk of hidden power the item has for people who are very observant, the fact that you can use the Duskblade's Nightstalker passive to passively detect enemy wards, and even stealthed/in bush champions for the rest of the game by watching if your nightstalker proc starts ticking down the remaining duration.

If you want to make Duskblade's assassin boosting tools more equally distributed between AD and AP, you could even consider making it the first Adaptive stat item, and having it provide dual penetration with adaptive AD or AP. Notably both AD and AP assassins generally are fine with having a bit of the other penetration type, as most of them do at least a little of the other damage type (Zed's passive, Shaco's... well, everything is mixed up a bit, Kayn's passive, AP assassin's autos that they should be using, Kong's W, potential shiv purchase if comboing with Stormrazor for ADs, AD from Gunblade for APs) and lets both AD and AP have equal access to the vision game, rather than have it so lopsidedly biased toward AD Assassins and champions in general.

AR URFJul 8, 20182 votes

I don't build duskblade quinn. I rush item 3095 to help me cs. item 3142 to help me catch up to my opponent or run away. My finished build looks about like item 1001 item 3078 item 3153 item 3072

BrightWîngsJul 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m1LPHOL2,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2018-07-08T09:14:16.648+0000)

I don't build duskblade quinn. I rush to help me cs. to help me catch up to my opponent or run away. My finished build looks about like

Pretty much what i said i actually love tri force on Quinn item 3095 really made her come back into the meta a little bit.

CytheGuyJul 8, 20182 votes

Honestly I feel like all asssassins were more fun to play before "Lethality" replaced Armor Penetration. I could build utility items that complimented a lack of something I have: item 3074 for farming, item 3026 (old) for defense, item 3035 (old) & item 3071 for anti-tank stats, etc. Now all assassins are just point and click nukes with some dashing around in between spell-casts, all of which happens in about 0.5 - 1.5 seconds. Take away lethality and people like Faker who actually had to get good with champs like Zed can shine again because not everyone can delete a squishy in the same amount of time with the same amount of real skill.

DuskDaUmbreonJul 8, 20182 votes

A bit of an unpopular opinion, but Duskblade itself is fine. Remove Nightstalker (the damage bonus), keep Blackout (the ward-killing part). Maybe make Blackout an active (That itself would be a change that would balance itself out. You don't passively see a ward in the middle of the river, but you won't waste it on a ward you already know is there). Blackout isn't the problematic part of the item, Nightstalker is. The lethality is fine, as it puts them roughly on-par with mages and AP assassins, with having two penetration items that are pretty much always useful. The AD is fine, as it's not that big for the cost. The CDR is fine, as assassins do need it.

Just make it less of just "more damage", and emphasize the ward-killing part, somehow. That'll fix most, if not all, of its problems.

ChaddyFantomeJul 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A bit of an unpopular opinion, but Duskblade itself is fine. Remove Nightstalker (the damage bonus), keep Blackout (the ward-killing part). Maybe make Blackout an active (That itself would be a change that would balance itself out. You don't passively see a ward in the middle of the river, but you won't waste it on a ward you already know is there). Blackout isn't the problematic part of the item, Nightstalker is. The lethality is fine, as it puts them roughly on-par with mages and AP assassins, with having two penetration items that are pretty much always useful. The AD is fine, as it's not that big for the cost. The CDR is fine, as assassins do need it.

Just make it less of just "more damage", and emphasize the ward-killing part, somehow. That'll fix most, if not all, of its problems.

Then why is item 3285 okay?

MogarlJul 9, 20182 votes

one-shotting > aoe is a large part of it.

item 3285 isn't by any means perfect, but It doesn't scale nearly as well as item 3147 . A rational build might get 160 magic damage before resistances on a single target out of ludens near the end of the game. Add that to the fact that Ludens is a more expensive item, magic resist is easier to acquire than armor, and Ludens has far fewer abuse cases.

ChaddyFantomeJul 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

one-shotting > aoe is a large part of it.

isn't by any means perfect, but It doesn't scale nearly as well as .

This isn't even true.

Ludens scales off of Ap which is the highest single scaling stat in the game Duskblades scaling was actually nerfed into the ground and it only scales with 2 other items and a single rune.

One is also far more easy to make use of by its class. All a mage needs to do is shoot some spells and they just get free damage every once and awhile. Duskblade requires you get into melee and auto, and to refresh requires you to get out of sight, which granted, is easier on some champs than others, but it still is far more restrictive overall than Luden's proc. Luden's also hits multiple people and helps with waveclear as it can be used on minions.

A rational build might get 160 magic damage before resistances on a single target out of ludens near the end of the game.

Read the above. That is because Luden's damage is easier to abuse.

Add that to the fact that Ludens is a more expensive item.

Ludens also offers the buyer MUCH more overall for the slot than Duskblade does. It offers 20% CDR, tons of mana and much more relative AP than Duskblade provides in AD.

magic resist is easier to acquire than armor,

False, magic resist is both more expensive and there is less of in in the game than Armor.

and Ludens has far fewer abuse cases.

it really doesn't.

Assassins are strong now, but duskblade is the least of the reasons why.

Electrocute, the general buffs to the Domination tree and ignite play way more into that.

MogarlJul 12, 20181 votes

Ludens scales off of Ap which is the highest single scaling stat in the game

Duskblade's proc scales up to 200 based on level. Ludens can reach that high if a champion has 1000 ap. Since that doesn't happen My claim of Duskblade scaling higher in its single target burst is completely accurate. On top of that if being one shot by ap is a problem there is always a good option for you. So reaching full penetration on an enemy is pretty unlikely. (AD on the other hand you better be a tank/fighter or like stasis)

One is also far more easy to make use of by its class.

This is a point in my favor. Ludens isn't exceptionaly more effective on any one mage really. Although it is mostly only used by burst mages it doesn't have any of the game bending abuse cases duskblade had/has. This makes it easier to balance, and healthier.

Duskblade requires you get into melee and auto, and to refresh requires you to get out of sight, which granted, is easier on some champs than others, but it still is far more restrictive overall than Luden's proc.

Echo is unlikely to proc more than once in a fight on any mage. Nightstalker can on some champions, but not all. That is the core of the health issue with it.
Echo's use case isn't for a killing combo. Nightstalker is, so Nightstalker will either be weak such that it's not worth it, or strong such that it allows the assassin to 100-0.

Ludens also offers the buyer MUCH more overall for the slot than Duskblade does. It offers 20% CDR, tons of mana and much more relative AP than Duskblade provides in AD.

It also costs an additional 300 gold, and doesn't build out of just longswords. Duskblade's highest gold amount ever required is 700 when you combine it's two components. Whereas Ludens has a blasting wand (850) and it's combine cost of 1050. Duskblade is a cheap low risk item. Fortunately Riot didn't give it better stats than it should have.

False, magic resist is both more expensive and there is less of in in the game than Armor.

Magic resist is easier to acquire not cheaper to purchase. 7/14 mr items are focused on tanks. 13/16 armor items are focused on tanks.

Armor might be cheaper but MR has more options and is easier to fit into your build. 1 MR is also just flat out worth more in protection than 1 Armor as well though so that gold cost isn't that relevant.

it really doesn't.

Name one abuse case, and tell me why it's abusing the item. For an example Kha'zix abuses Duskblade by having such consistent use of its passive either he or the item have to be balanced around the other.

ChaddyFantomeJul 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Duskblade's proc scales up to 200 based on level. Ludens can reach that high if a champion has 1000 ap. Since that doesn't happen My claim of Duskblade scaling higher in its single target burst is completely accurate. On top of that if being one shot by ap is a problem there is always a good option for you. So reaching full penetration on an enemy is pretty unlikely. (AD on the other hand you better be a tank/fighter or like stasis)

This require soyu to artificially remove all the use cases of the item that would show its damage stacks up far more than duskblades over the course of a game.

This is a point in my favor. Ludens isn't exceptionally more effective on any one mage really. Although it is mostly only used by burst mages it doesn't have any of the game bending abuse cases duskblade had/has. This makes it easier to balance, and healthier.

No it isn't.

Ludens is far more warping BECAUSE so many people can abuse it. Duskblade is used by like 4 champions because they are the ones that can use it. Ludens is currently used on pretty much all mages currently save for Swain,Anivia and Casseopia. Do you not know what gamewarpign means?

Echo is unlikely to proc more than once in a fight on any mage. Nightstalker can on some champions, but not all. That is the core of the health issue with it.

This is a lie. The thing stacks up both from casting spells and movement. You will easily proc it at least 3 times a team fight, and that's if you are a higher CD mage and we assume you are never poking before of after the teamfight.

By contrast, an assassin procs it once, maybe twice if they have a mechanic in their kit to reset it, and they are only hitting one person while Ludens hits up to 5.

Your entire comprehension of balance is utterly warped dude.

Echo's use case isn't for a killing combo. Nightstalker is, so Nightstalker will either be weak such that it's not worth it, or strong such that it allows the assassin to 100-0.

Echoes use cases are vast and basically unlimited, its always been a flawed item in design because there is no reason a mage wouldnt want it unless they want something else MORE.

DPS mage? Your ability cats make it stack faster for more procs. Burst mage? it gives you a nice chunk of flat damage to your rotation. Poke mage? Gives you a nice flat chunk of damage on your Poke. AP Assassin? The thing stacks from your movement/dashes, and gives you nice chunk of flat damage on your all-in.

Literally the only time the item isn't a must pick is when there is a more OP item at the time.

It also costs an additional 300 gold, and doesn't build out of just longswords.

nice anti-AD bias.

Instead it builds out of an infinite mana item. item 3802

Duskblade's highest gold amount ever required is 700 when you combine it's two components. Whereas Ludens has a blasting wand (850) and it's combine cost of 1050. Duskblade is a cheap low risk item. Fortunately Riot didn't give it better stats than it should have.

yea, its almost like Ludens is a better item and has much more to offer statwise, thus the higher price point. Shocker.

Magic resist is easier to acquire not cheaper to purchase. This doesn't make any sense. 7/14 mr items are focused on tanks. 13/16 armor items are focused on tanks.

Why does this matter?

Armor might be cheaper but MR has more options and is easier to fit into your build.

No it isn't and doesn't tho. you have WAY more options for Armor whereas for MR you have like 3 items.

1 MR is also just flat out worth more in protection than 1 Armor as well though so that gold cost isn't that relevant.

How is this supposed to prove your point exactly?

Name one abuse case, and tell me why it's abusing the item. For an example Kha'zix abuses Duskblade by having such consistent use of its passive either he or the item have to be balanced around the other.

The current state of the game isn't relevant to the design of an item being balanced or not. Luden's has been game warping every time it was good, but even that thats beside smy point.

The point i am making is "why is Duskblade's damage proc bad for being "just more damage" but Luden's is okay despite also being "just more damage"? Because beyond the fact that "one is for mages and the other is for AD assassins" i really don't see a fundamental difference.

MogarlJul 13, 20181 votes

Throwing around accusations of bias. Are you reading what your typing? This whole "conversation" has been nothing but you insisting that every mage in the game abuses Ludens without ever offering a thought on how exactly they are abusing it.

What item are burst mages supposed to build right now ( fyi I'm a Viktor main and don't even build a lost chapter)? 95% of them have been balanced to be reliant on Lost Chapter. item 3285 item 3003 item 3030 are the only options from there. GLPL sucks on everyone, and very few champions can currently stack tear fast enough for seraphs to be relevant by the time the game is ending.

Echo has a flat effect across nearly every mage that uses it. No one has been balanced around Ludens due to breaking the game or gotten Ludens gutted because a small group used it better.
The function of the kit Ludens is paired with is completely different than the one Duskblade is paired with. 100 damage on an assassin's all in is worth more than 100 damage on a mage's poke. By the time a mage pokes you again you will have regenerated health. The assassin just kills you 100 health sooner.
Pick a better comparison . Spellblade is actually a relevant comparison to Nightstalker unlike your bullshit "comparison" to Ludens.

I've answered your question, but I can't make you drop your own bias and accept it. For the record I do disagree with DuskDaUmbreon's original comment of just removing Nightstalker, but I do think it's stealth based activation is flawed, and will always be a balance sore.

DuskDaUmbreonJul 9, 20181 votes

Because comparing Luden's to Duskblade is like comparing Trinity to item 3153 just because they both have damage.

ChaddyFantomeJul 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because comparing Luden's to Duskblade is like comparing Trinity to just because they both have damage.

You are missing the point.

They said the problem with Duskblade is that it just give syou free damage. Luden's gives you that. Why is it okay but Duskblade Is bad beyond the champions that buy them?

TewljrJul 8, 20181 votes

I mean all assasins are either get fed or be useless so removing duskblade would have even more assasin reworks and more assasin items to the game just to balance it out again, but yet again I just play the game so I don't know how to balance stuff

NaymlissJul 8, 20183 votes

I actually haven't seen an assassin be useless recently. I've seen them int hard early game, but the come back after they get their ulti/ first item and just statcheck their enemy laner.

Tausif2002Jul 8, 20181 votes

You realize the reason Talon is so good right now is the fact that he can 1 second shove with tiamat and roam, right?

My Waifu VanillaJul 8, 20181 votes

And you're letting him? If he wants to stand in the middle of the creep wave and not throw his W at YOU why aren't you punishing him?

SoarinJCJul 8, 20182 votes

Yes, let's punish the assassin that can 1 shot you even without everything up. Great plan![slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

My Waifu VanillaJul 8, 20182 votes

Have you played Talon? Please answer. Because that comment is something only someone who has no idea what Talon's kit does. Most of Talon's damage (especially in laning phase where he basically only has a tiamat) is in his W and his passive. His W is now on cooldown and his passive is ONLY going to do something if he hits you with not only both parts of his ulti, but also auto attacks you afterwards which will only happen if he leads with Q, uses his ult, auto attacks you to recall the ult, and then auto attack you AGAIN meaning you were STILL in auto range of him. Not only did all of this happen, but his Q also did I believe 66% of what it should OPTIMALLY do since he had to use the ranged one since that is the only way for him to even guarentee you get hit by R1. Even if he does this chances are.....you're still not dying or even coming close. He is missing out on so much damage from W2 since it is on cooldown.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 8, 20182 votes

-implying a talon can be punished

My Waifu VanillaJul 8, 20181 votes

Reading comprehension hard so I guess I will just copy paste here so you can actually read it again.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20181 votes

i have played talon some 10~ times and i always manage to kill my oponent level 2 when he dares to pick up a single cs, exept in a match i was against an anivia and she managed to didnt die

ShablagooJul 8, 20181 votes

How about we make a ap version so mage mains stop crying about it.

Irelia BotJul 8, 20185 votes