Problem with mages: 1 build path

taleofsonata·Jan 11, 2019·77 votes·19,208 views

Mages literally has 1 build path,

Mage itemization power is badly distributed, most of the damage are literally from flat magic pen distributed to only 2 items. and % Magic pen to void staff. Ap power comes from Deathcap since it has a 120 AP and 40% additional total AP.

What needs to be fixed, Nerf Deathcap unique passive to 30% Distribute the missing 10% ap to other ap item like, ROA/Hextech items/ etc. Distribute Magic pen to other AP items Expand diversity basically.

Ps: Bring back as a mage item.

96 Comments

Cats Are FoodJan 11, 201957 votes

"If we over load certain items, they become things that the player MUST buy. Thus eliminating player choice, and champion diversity. We try to avoid this."

-SmashGizmo, RIOT QA, 2011

VolatileAkaliJan 11, 20193 votes

Oh I'm fucking snipping this to my images folder, thank you!

WashyMoneyJan 11, 20194 votes

This is stupid because throughout all the games history most classes literally only had one item build.

Like even in good old season 5 literally every tank built the same shit, most ADs built the same shit, and every mage built the same shit.

Like you can’t tell me there was more build diversity in s3/4/5/6.

Item builds at the highest level are always very static. Like when Athens was a good rush it was rushed in every meta mage.

Stevev45Jan 11, 20195 votes

There was more build diversity is s3/4/5

TerozuJan 11, 20193 votes

I mean not really, wasnt it just Morellos Rabadons DFG Void Sorc?

JaibamonJan 11, 20198 votes

item 3070 was viable, not only on ryze. It had good midgame entry to AP and infinite mana (something that's irrelevant now)

item 3174 and item 3157 for AP + Resistances + Mana. Great combination to survive and deal damage at the same time.

item 3116 and item 3151 for HP, control and damage.

item 3128 for burst.

Now any those starters are shadowed because item 3285 gives everything you need, so next is just flat AP and MPen. Yeah it makes you a glass cannon, but in this damage meta, it's just about who nukes the other first.

TerozuJan 11, 20191 votes

But Rylais and Liandries are still common.

And Archangels with Zhonyas are a great protective combo, especially with barrier.

One of my favorite builds as a mid laner is to rush item 3003 and item 3157 .

Combining with barrier means I can safely build a Mejais and then some movement speed/ ap for high survival. item 3003 item 3157 item 3041 item 3116 item 3151 item 3905 is a great survival oriented build with high mana and health while also giving good to great ap, giving vision and cc.

If i still cant keep Mejai's stacks up I give it up for boots since its just a vulnerability otherwise.

OrangeMarineJan 11, 20192 votes

nice in theory and probably works if ur opponent cant farm well

but if you can farm well, pure dmg and ur on another level of power, dont need survivability

KarfussJan 12, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cats Are Food,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m19A2Ekt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-11T07:02:25.157+0000)

"If we over load certain items, they become things that the player MUST buy. Thus eliminating player choice, and champion diversity. We try to avoid this."

-SmashGizmo, RIOT QA, 2011

Irony being that back when that was said, mages had more choice than they ever.

There's a quote of Ghostcrawler saying that "powercreeping" is something that must be avoided at all costs, and that champions who are out of line should be nerfed before itemization, when he first joined Riot. Would love to dig that up, given the ghastly state of the game, but it's lost to the old forum archives now.

Cats Are FoodJan 12, 20191 votes

You can still google crawl the old archives, but you need specific summoner names and dates. I've changed my various account names so many times it's the only way to find my own posts to reference them lol.

CrazFight Jan 11, 201929 votes

I remember back when we had to chose between

item 3165 (Old one) and item 3174 (Old one)

Riot said they wanted to create more choices.

Well here we are, and now we have to pick

item 3285

Sir SaltarinJan 11, 20192 votes

Man I remember playing Ziggs with Athena's back in S4 if I'm not wrong.

Votable JesterJan 11, 20197 votes

I built it a ton on Xerath. I still miss it as an option.

My Waifu VanillaJan 11, 20191 votes

"option" implies almost every mage didn't buy it. Oh wait. Almost every mage bought it because it gave you literally everything you could want. Infinite mana, AP, and the resist for the mirror match. Weird. Also the build path was good for the item itself being dirt cheap. The same people that buy Luden's now bought Grail before and then some.

Votable JesterJan 12, 20192 votes

Actually no, most built Morello. I was buying Athene's when it wasn't super popular due to it having weaker stats. I took it for the higher mana regen and ability to siege forever.

There were times when Athene's was popular and times when Morello's was popular. Most often I remember it being Morello's.

WeaselRuneJan 12, 20192 votes

I fondly remember playing infinte R Anivia

With item 3040 item 3027 item 3174 You could reach a point where the mana regen was = to the drain....

Not saying it was right, but it was interesting. The build actually wasnt that strong, but it made defending a tower very intimidating for the enemy team.

I feel like most classes had the first item choice if not at least the second item choice in earlier seasons.

Most ADCs got Infinity blade back in the day, but I feel like anyone who understood itemization was choosing between item 3072 or item 3046 based on what they needed.

There really arent that many items to choose from. So many have either been reworked into overlap, or removed.

I miss building item 3172 Sivir

We used to be able to choose between item 3146 and Will of the Ancients if we needed sustain vs poke for mages.

IDK, tbh I think theyve been dumbing the game down cause it was too complex to teach new highers.

Most people who cant remember itemization being better probably just never looked into it and "robot built" the same build order every match. It was more flexible as I remember it also, with more items to choose from as first or second buy depending on what you wanted to do/avoid/survive.

NevrankroatonJan 11, 201915 votes

As a main mage, the fact you think we should distribute magic pen on multiple item tell me that you don't realize how broken it will be to have multiple option like lethality do. And also how pointless it would be to have 4/5 pen mag by item, it would hit some champion too hard.

Diversity is a lie, there never had been any diversity for mages except "Morello or Graal" which was a fake flipcoin. You always built the same item. Ever.

If you didn't, it mean that your champion follow an other SPECIFIC set of item like rushing liandry or leachbane or whatever.

Also there is mages that use hextech probelt or zhonya first, etc. Like lissandra or ekko or vlad.

Problem is that luden is too good of a generic choice when seraphin is for champ who spam spell (and was broken when it wasn't cattering to that), and the other item is too 'weak' compared to the two but its big ass active could actually be far too strong if it was buffed improperly.

I do agree to improve some AP on some item to make them more attractive but let me you this:

Mage will ALWAYS want burst dmg and whatever make them scale fast. Old void staff, DFG, luden, old morello, etc.

Starcraft243verJan 11, 201912 votes

Well that's straight up false.

We've got the glacial augment builds (veigar, velkoz, lots of mage support): item 3905 item 3030

Some mages prefer GLP over Luden. (Veigar ..)

Annie prefers protobelt

Dot mages plays (brand, zyra, ...): item 3151 item 3116

Some mages needing a bit survival starts : (Maz/Tf/Swain ..) item 3027

Late scaling mages plays tear (Cassio): item 3070

Z3SleeperJan 11, 20199 votes

The OP is moreso addressing that most Mages have pretty much 1 build with no room for deviation.

Ofcourse Ryze is gonna build different than Lux and Azir is gonna build different than Cass and so on.

Champions in other roles suffer from this too, but they are moreso the minority. Most champions have options.

macspamJan 11, 20199 votes

This is only for burst mages, DoT mages like brand, zyra. Cassiopeia., malzahar. Rumble, etc,build liandrys and rylais. I do agree that itemization is way, way too static, though.

Moving power to the hextech items? I dunno, those are still cost effective. Hextech GLP is more cost effective than ludens if you use the active, 400 cheaper for only 10 less AP. I suppose they could buff protobelt, but then the cost would need to be increased (its only 2500 right now). What I would really love to see is a spell vamp item that builds into gunblade (or, ideally. Another item that doesnt give AD). right now the only other sources of spell vamp are the Eternity Passive and ravenous hunter, which makes it quite hard to fit into builds.

Cats Are FoodJan 11, 20199 votes

Ahhh Hextech Revolver used to have Spell Vamp. People whined because things like Morde and Akali rushed it.

Z3SleeperJan 11, 20192 votes

Problem was it was entirely balanced around them. So spell vamp was kept super weak cuz that was appropriate for the champs that actually used it.

The end result was spell vamp on anyone other than akali/vlad/morde was just useless. So they opted to remove it and just put more sustain into those champs' kits.

Cats Are FoodJan 11, 20194 votes

Right. I was just saying that there -was- part of hextech items that used to have Spellvamp.

Also Spellvamp on Morgana was nice, too, since it stacked with her passive SV.

ZezockaryJan 11, 20194 votes

I used to get the spell vamp quints and mastery on malz and then rush the revolver which would give I think 21% spell vamp, then keep my E on something at all times to keep myself at full health XD

Gramps69Jan 11, 20192 votes

Malz was great with spellvamp, I used to also build revolver and Spirit Visage on pre-rework Swain so his ult would give maximum healings

ErrastasJan 11, 20199 votes

To be honest item diveristy looks pretty stale in every lane

Cloud273Jan 11, 20196 votes

The problem is other items are weak right now. Zhonyas is garbage right now, and hextech GLP especially needs a buff. Almost no one buys this.

Sir SaltarinJan 11, 20194 votes

This Zhonyas is way stronger than the old Zhonyas that gave 120 ap, because this one is cheaper an with a better build path, also you can buy Stopwatch first while with the old the Stasis active was behind a 3400gold paywall.

Saying that Zhonyas is garbage is saying that you have no clue about how this game works.

Cloud273Jan 11, 201910 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m19A2Ekt,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-01-11T08:35:52.620+0000)

This Zhonyas is way stronger than the old Zhonyas that gave 120 ap, because this one is cheaper an with a better build path, also you can buy Stopwatch first while with the old the Stasis active was behind a 3400gold paywall.

Saying that Zhonyas is garbage is saying that you have no clue about how this game works.

Old Zhonyas gave 120 AP and 50 armor. You can't possibly tell me this one is better. And I never said that stopwatch was bad. I said Zhonyas was bad. Just because one component of Zhonyas is good doesn't mean it's a good item.

IfnethJan 11, 20194 votes

Correction: item 3285 item 3020 item 3165 item 3157 item 3135 item 3089

Zhonya’s is your defensive item. Buy it third, since the build is squishy overall and needs hard protection against burst.

ThefrostyvikingJan 11, 20193 votes

Zhonya isnt really useful most of the time though, i mean far from every game has something so straightforward as a Zed on the enemy team looking to jump at you.

And the low AP makes it absolutely subpar against almost everything else that doesnt have a similar deal like Zed like Vi ult or Karthus ult.

IfnethJan 11, 20195 votes

Zhonya’s active lets you do more than just survive a telegraphed burst of damage. You can make a big play, like a turret dive or backline all-in, and then Zhonya to drop aggro or while your team follows up. If the enemy dives, then you can Zhonya to force them to stay while your team turns.

It also offers a nice early build path, with Seeker’s Armguard countering AD midlaners by offering armor and ability power with gold efficiency that only increases with stacking its passive. Taking Perfect Timing grants an early active use and takes 600 gold off the price. Later, the armor helps you dive turrets, while 10% CDR brings you from 20 to 30% CDR.

The meta is also divers, skirmishes, and assassins, who don’t usually build Magic Resistance in their third item. Void Staff’s passive won’t penetrate much.

Sir SaltarinJan 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Zhonya isnt really useful most of the time though, i mean far from every game has something so straightforward as a Zed on the enemy team looking to jump at you.

And the low AP makes it absolutely subpar against almost everything else that doesnt have a similar deal like Zed like Vi ult or Karthus ult.

And Zhonyas is the best counter to Zed if the player that has the Zhonyas knows how to properly use it, maybe that's why the Gameplay Boards think that Zhonyas is bad.

Daddy AntsJan 11, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m19A2Ekt,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2019-01-11T11:18:02.520+0000)

And Zhonyas is the best counter to Zed if the player that has the Zhonyas knows how to properly use it, maybe that's why the Gameplay Boards think that Zhonyas is bad.

Hell, Mages can even go into domination, Take Ingenious Hunter and reduce Zhonya's cooldown further.

TobykachuJan 11, 20194 votes

This isn't even true in the slightest. Some mages need more mana than what Luden's provides and so theh build tear. Some play with Glacial Augment and so build Hextech GLP and Twin Shadows. If you're losing and want to build some heavy MR, then you can build Banshees. Against a fed assassin? Zhonyas. Some mages have extremely good synergy with Rylai's and Liandry's and so build them first.

If you want a class that has really been struggling because they can only build one item path then look at crit adc's. If they dare stray from the path of Stormrazor, RFC, IE, Bloodthirster and some form of last whisper item, then their damage sinks like a brick.

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 11, 20193 votes

Isn't their technically 3 builds?

item 3285 item 3020 item 3916

item 3003 item 3020 item 3916

item 3098 item 3151 item 3116 item 3916

wait I'm noticing a pattern....

PoskeJan 11, 20193 votes

First item is any lost chapter upograde buy they are basically all the same item

If you think it matters what you build between GLP/SERAPH/Ludens you are quite wrong GLP is often looked down upon yet it costs 400 gold or so less than ludens and does everything ludens does

Mage itemization rework was done by Vladimir / Ryze main

How do I know? I dont, BUT ITS obvious as fk. The only 2 mages with item diversity

SaevumJan 11, 20192 votes

I think they should move the flat MPen from Morello to Void, so then, they can have a aperture at nerfing Void's % Mpen.

This would make the mages buildpath less straight into Mpen because we know Void is not a cost efficient item, and you do not rush it util your opponent has a MR item built.

But i dont know what to do with morello, maybe give it back some ap and mana like his old vintage version?

KynamiJan 11, 20191 votes

Except for the fact that Voidstaff is cost efficient the moment your opposition has even a single MR item... stick the flat on there too and you do end up with a 2nd item rush where resists are "solved" and what comes after is the flavor packs for how to pump the AP up.

Daddy AntsJan 11, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Except for the fact that Voidstaff is cost efficient the moment your opposition has even a single MR item... stick the flat on there too and you do end up with a 2nd item rush where resists are "solved" and what comes after is the flavor packs for how to pump the AP up.

Magic Resist is a harder stat to stack than Armor as well.

But Void Staff happens to be cheaper than Last Whisper upgrades

Most tanks can have 300 armor before even having 100 MR.

If I was in charge of balance. Void Staff and LW upgrades would swap costs. VS 2800. LW Upgrades 2650.

Armor is an easier stat to obtain than MR, so Armor Penetration should be cheaper than Magic Penetration.

Last whisper needs 237.5 armor to be gold efficient.

Void Staff needs 90.6 MR.

BLIGHTBRINGERJan 11, 20192 votes

From my experience I always see every mage buy items in this specific order...

item 3285 item 3020 item 3089 item 3165 item 3157

Then usually one of the last items is either a...

item 3100 item 3151 item 3135

Stars ShaperJan 11, 20192 votes

This also comes from the fact that mages have less stats to look for compared to ADs.

BrightWîngsJan 11, 20192 votes

Please read fully People talk about this but forget what mages actually do yes they build the same items every game for the most part but majority of mages all have their situational needs in their kits whether its CC, Shields, healing, AOE ect. They normally have something to deal with MOST things and they are all amplified by AP.

The thing is that mages are doing pretty good with just ONE build and to me that says they dont need anymore ( hear me out) because what will happen is that if they get all these items they dont really need it may make them over powered and over loaded. Again I 100% agree its boring and very stale to build the same items every game but the deal with mages its all about their kit and not their items same thing with AD carries but flip it its all about their items and less about their kits, bruisers are a different story they have in depth kits and decent situational items and I'm not gonna get into that XD and thank you to all who read it and im gonna make it clear again I agree it is stale and im not here crying about how mages are overloaded or op or nothing I'm just trying to help make sense in why they dont have many choices in items

[galio-happy]

Zeppelins circusJan 12, 20192 votes

Can't we just have a weaker version of DFG, and then actually removing more damage from the game (mostly runes), so you need to actually dedicate your build towards damage again?

This was the to-go full damage build for Leblanc. (You sell the mask into a optional item) item 3165 item 3020 item 3128 item 3089 item 3135 (Abyssal sceptre)

item 3285 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3165 item 3157

Remember when you ought to buy rabadons and DFG for pure damage builds. It was a huge investment of gold. Now you get like the same oneshotting from this patch just by core items. Also they are frigging cheaper.

They seriously need abyssal, and chalice back as well. I miss those items.

Just MonikhaJan 17, 20191 votes

That s it, and that s also the case for AP bruisers champions, they should rush AP bruiser items such as Abyssal sceptre (whitch gave MR if i m not wrong) and Rod of the Ages for the Eternity passive + HP + AP but no they also go with the mage build because it s so r%%%%%ed that if you take this stuff you instawin unless you re facing the same stuff...

Zeppelins circusJan 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Just Monikha,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m19A2Ekt,comment-id=00280000,timestamp=2019-01-17T20:18:00.756+0000)

That s it, and that s also the case for AP bruisers champions, they should rush AP bruiser items such as Abyssal sceptre (whitch gave MR if i m not wrong) and Rod of the Ages for the Eternity passive + HP + AP but no they also go with the mage build because it s so r%%%%%ed that if you take this stuff you instawin unless you re facing the same stuff...

Another thing is that if there is only a single "prime build", midlane will become a arms race of dominance that the losing side will always lose. And "losing" these days isn't just lost lane, its pretty much losing hard you lose game.

Just MonikhaJan 16, 20192 votes

I agreed with almost all parts but just do not distribute the pene and the %pene to other items it will just let some of the AP in this same situation where they re liiteraly the Gods of the Rift. Here is what i propose :

Nerf the rabadon and the void staff as you said BUT i also nerf the cost of Void Staff to make it as expensive as LS items
Nerf every AP item of the game/revert the buff they had before
Nerf every AP rune of the game especially Aftershock since you can see absurd things like Galio AP Aftershock, Lissandra AP Aftershock and Fiddle with it also for example and Comete
Remove Stopwatch from the game
Put an MR crit item, buff significantly Malmortius/Hexdrinker and add a laner MR item for tanks
Remove the ability to use AP vs towers
Eventually partially revert the most cancerous mage abilities (like Cassio W)

PsyrixJan 16, 20191 votes

How is Cass W cancerous? And “significantly buff hexdrinker” it already provides extremely significant stats... mr, a mr shield and lifesteal alongside respectable AD. With no active. Pair that with nullifying orb and it’s extremely effective against magic damage, especially early-midgame.

Just MonikhaJan 17, 20191 votes

How is it cancerous to have a more than 1k long and 200 units width "80% slow and Grounded for 5 seconds" spell from 800 range max witch I litteraly call it a flat 5 seconds cancer stunn , I don't understand... for real lmfao (irony intensifies). Significantly buff hexdrinker : I again have the proff today the MR shield just pop off after 0,25 seconds because AP have too much damage and the shield is poping almost 1 second before you died because whenever you re at 30% max HP as a bruiser or worse, as a squishy champion you re dead the next 0,5 seconds again because AP deals too much perma. I would for example make the shield scales from 110-280 to 100-550 lvl 18, 280 shield is just too little and the scaling is just ridiculous atm (280-110)/18 = 9,4 you can 't see it ? That only almost 10 fkn magic damage per lvl is ridiculously low compared to what AP gain as magic damage/lvl ??? Btw the Malmmortius only shield for a flat 350 magic damage, witch just sucks a t this point especially for the cost of this item, this 350 shield is also why the AD and omnisustain you gain from the item is just fkn useless because you re dead the next second because their damage will take over the sustain and the shield. 2nd change I will do is the limit to proc the item, instead of making it 30% of max health I would make it like 40% of max HP so people will have a large window to proc the AD and the passive (and won t get perma os through the shield).

Jeanne fan clubJan 12, 20191 votes

No ur missing the point entirely, magic penn is busted and shouldn't be a stat that exists. Mages are typically balanced until they get that oblivion orb in their build, at that point they become too damaging to deal with.