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Let's Talk about Talon (he CAN have a healthy silence) – Part II

Hyrum Graff··23 votes·2,132 views

10/17/2014 edit: My super hectic days are over; I'm going to start taking a crack at responding to these.

10/13/2014 edit: I want to thank you all, especially the talon mains who have given me really in-depth responses. I have a really busy 3 days coming up, and I may not have time to respond to you until Thursday - because I want to give you the in-depth responses you deserve instead of a short, "OK" - but rest assured, I have read them, am thinking about them, and will give you a detailed response at some point, as well as considering your feedback when I write up part III.

You can read the context in Part 1; for the sake of brevity, I won't repeat it all here.

Objectives:

  • Give Talon's opponents a way to avoid Talon's silence
    • How? Dodge his Rake.
  • Give Talon a way to avoid damage while trading
    • If Talon is able to hit Rake, he'll be able to silence
  • Give talon meaningful choices about his combos, AND
  • keep his silence healthy
    • Talon now has two combos. w-e-q silences, but deals significantly less damage. e-w-q doesn't silence, but deals more damage. His maximum burst combo is e-w-q-r-q.
    • This way, if he chooses to silence you (and you fail at dodging his Rake), he won't have the damage to pop you.

tl;dr change: Rake and talon's ult now apply a mark. Talon's basic abilities can detonate that mark for bonus effects. I am currently fielding suggestions for the name of the mark.

#Passive: Mercy

Now Bleed as a mechanic actually does something, and now we know why it's called Mercy – because Talon is putting them out of their misery.

  • Hooray for kit cohesion: Talon's autoattacks deal 10% additional damage to any target that is slowed, stunned, immobilized, or suppressed => Talon's autoattacks deal 10% additional damage to any target that is bleeding.

#Q: Noxian Diplomacy

This should help Talon secure kills when his combo isn't quite enough. The speed boost is directional to push talon in the direction of “This is an all-in combo.” This ability deals the same total damage, but more is in the bleed. The result is that this ability benefits less from Cutthroat's damage amplification, so talon's combo deals less damage. He's getting that same damage (and more!) back if he uses his combo without the silence.

  • [Nerfed] Base Bonus Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 => 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50
  • [Buffed] Base Damage over Time: 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 => 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150
  • [New] Adrenaline: If this ability consumes a Mark, it deals an additional 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 base bonus damage and Talon gains a speed boost while moving towards bleeding targets for the bleed duration.

#W: Rake:

Some big changes here. The slow is gone: Talon no longer needs it for his passive, and an aoe slow is way more than any assassin needs on a basic ability. Rake now deals less damage to champs unless Talon uses E or R first (but more damage to minions/monsters so talon can still waveclear). It also applies a mark which talon can detonate with his other basic abilities for bonus effects.

  • [New] Marked: applies a Mark of Impending Doom which lasts for 4s

    • If the target is already Marked, reapplies the Mark

  • [Removed] AOE assassin amirite: Rake no longer slows enemies hit

  • [Nerf] Physical Damage Per Hit: 30 / 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 (+ 60% bonus AD) => 15 / 27 / 40 / 52 / 65 (+ 40% bonus AD) [half damage]

  • [New] But mah waveclear: Rake deals double damage to minions and monsters (live values)

  • [New] But mah damage: If Rake consumes a Mark, it deals double damage to that opponent. (live values)

    • [Clarity] Behaves the way you'd think: If the target was previously marked, deals double damage both ways. If not, it doesn't deal double either way.

  • [Optional] Skill shot now takes skill: I'm considering changing Rake's mechanics. This comment has some excellent ideas.

#E: Cutthroat:

Now Talon has to choose between getting a silence and applying a mark, which will give him more damage in his combo.

  • [New] Bonus damage if he doesn't use his silence: If the target is not Marked, applies a Mark.
  • [New] Inconsistent Aim: If the target is marked, silences the target for 1 second
    • Does NOT reapply the mark.

#R: Shadow Assault:

During his ult, Talon will be able to apply both of his CC to whomever he wants. Also, everyone bleeds, so after he q's, talon's speed boost and passive are easier to use. Range nerfed so it's harder for him to flash-ult and drop his full, uncounterable, combo on you.

  • [New] Everyone is a target: Applies a Mark to all enemies damaged.
  • [New] Nowhere to run: All enemies damaged bleed for 6 true damage over 6 seconds.
  • Come Closer: 500 Range ring => 450 range ring

Thoughts?

######If you like the idea, or you don't like the idea but you'd like to talk about it, please leave an upvote and a comment! Otherwise, leave a downvote (or don't) and a comment!

36 Comments

SouL1ess5 votes

So this build kind of mutilates Talon's ranged trading potential and forces him to go in more often?

Rake's damage nerfed - Talon's ranged harass will no longer compare to any other mid laner. Maybe this is fine, however:

EWQ costs substantial amount of mana: Noxian diplomacy cost 40 mana rank1, cutthroat costs 35 mana rank 1, Rake cost 60 mana rank 1. Combine that and you get at least 135 mana used per actual trade attempt: Talon has mana issues if he continuously attempt to trade with EWQ, which is why some Talon players think Talon has mana issues. 135 mana is more than 30% of Talon's total mana pool up until level 6 and it's not really worth it since you must put yourself in a more dangerous position in order to have any sort of trade potential, while ranged mid-laners have much easier options for trading.

Currently, I play Talon by cautiously whittle down my opponent with Rake, then go in if 1) they make a mistake with skills, aka. miss their maxed skill or defensive option or 2) When they are low enough so they would want to flash out or I can kill them.

Compared to current: Talon needs to use more mana, to get into a more risky position, while doing the same damage during a trade.

I mean, if you begin with a rake then Cutthroat in, you DO NOT REAPPLY THE MARK and so you aren't going to get mercy up, if you stay to try to AA continuously they can kite you and damage you, while you attempt to run back or attempt to chase, since Rake no longer slows and you cannot stick - Noxian Diplomacy had no marks to proc when Cutthroat consumed it, therefore no movement speed.

That means you actually have less probability of using Mercy in lane than current: no sticking power, no AA effectiveness.

So in my mind, Talon's laning suffers a nerf from this kit proposal, and because most of Talon's power relies on early game advantage and farming (similar to Zed), his mid-game and late-game probably gets hit as well.

In later stages of the game, Talon is not going to land a silence since no priority target will get hit with Rake unless its a bush facecheck or grabbed. Positioning from Talon is easily 800 units away. Current Rake range will never reach. So, the "optional" Rake mechanism change is actually mandatory if this kit wants to have the silence be of use after laning phase.

Also note that if you Rake, have the first portion hit, then immediately cutthroat, since Talon lands on the other side of the enemy the Daggers will return to HIM instead of damaging the target twice, so there is no optimization for Rake Cutthroat Rake(hits again) Q for double mark procs.

In conclusion, I don't think the kit is good and it needs more work/thinking - I appreciate that you are trying to come up with new ideas, but I don't think these ideas are contributing to Talon's effectiveness, while they do convey a better thematically basepoint for champion kit.

I should maybe also add that your kit destroys the best flow of Talon's combo: E-AA-Q-W. Since Rake has a monumental cast time (AND IT DOESN'T SLOW NOW!) its usually extremely easy for targets to just walk out of melee range and I have to run up to AA them. That is the worse case scenario when Talon has to walk after his target after Cutthroating in, because it spells open season for Talon - he can't stick to his target since base MS is around the same, differing by 25 units per second at best (takes ~ 2 seconds to catch up), where in this time he may suffer from minion damage and consequently lose trade even if he successfully reaches his target. E-AA-Q-W or even EQW is necessary for Talon to start dodging enemy retailiation and minion focus RIGHT AFTER he finishes Rake in order to actually win a trade. I have found that EWAAQ or EWQ is much too slow to pull off during my 3 years of experience playing Talon.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

@SouL1ess: (Part One of Two)

First, thank you! It's awesome to get such detailed feedback from a talon main. Because it shows: I'm not one. I've played him, sure, but not enough to know the details of his combos, have a really good sense of his damage output and matchups, and just know what feels good. (The same way someone who's not a diana main won't know how good it feels to 'anticipate the q').

This kind of feedback is what helps me tweak my proposed kit until it's something that'll feel good to play as AND against.

Without further adiu:

Talon's laning -snip-

So, you're right that the current iteration kills your playstyle of "harass with rake until they're low enough that I can get a kill or force summoners." While it's not done yet, in my next iteration, I have some changes in mind that should bring your playstyle back a bit.

However, I don't mean to make talon unable to trade - he'll primarily do trading with a W-E-(AA)-Q combo. After the combo, he'll walk back to the safety of his minion wave. This combo will silence his opponent, so they won't be able to just dump their combo on him while he's damaging them, or most of the way back to the minion wave. It'll be similar to what you could do in 4.16 and before with E-W-Q (mana issues aside).

Speaking of mana issues. You're right: right now a rotation of basic abilities costs a lot of mana; talon can't afford to spam E-W-Q. In this version, I was planning on addressing that by simply giving him lower mana costs; In v3 It'll be addressed in a different way.

it's not really worth it [to trade] since you must put yourself in a more dangerous position in order to have any sort of trade potential, while ranged mid-laners have much easier options for trading.

Isn't this true of most melee squishies? Akali, Diana, Fiora, Kat. These are all low-cc, squishy, melee champs, and unless they can find some way of straight-up dealing more damage than their lane opponent, none of them particularly like to trade. Talon's getting an advantage in trading, because he'll be able to silence and prevent his opponent from dumping everything on him while he's conveniently exposed.

You actually have less probability of using Mercy in lane than current: no sticking power, no AA effectiveness.

This was pretty much as intended. The reason being, if talon can silence you and still do a lot of damage, he'll just use that combo and be just as bad to play against as pre-4.17.

There are some things - like max-range pre-rework nid spears - that, no matter how hard they are to land, just don't feel good to play against. It sucks when nid misses spears for 5 minutes and then lands one that wins the game, because it killed the 75% hp enemy adc.

Similarly, it just feels bad to get popped while you're silenced, no matter how fed the enemy is or how hard that silence is to hit. If you're at 40% hp and talon manages to hit a silence, you were poorly positioned and you deserve to die. But if you're near 100%, either talon should not be able to kill you in the window of the silence, or you should have a chance to do something about it - to flash to safety, at least.

This iteration was designed so Talon would use Mercy to finish his enemies off - which makes sense thematically: it's a mercy killing. When he's looking for the kill, Talon uses E-(AA)-Q-R-W-[AAs, Q when it comes up again], or E-W-(AA)-Q-[AA as needed] if his ult isn't up. I wasn't intending for Talon's passive to be part of his harass pattern. This will change a little bit in v3.

Running out of characters - Part 2 of my response is here

Hyrum Graff2 votes

@SouL1ess: Part Two of Two (Part 1 is here)

Also note that if you Rake, have the first portion hit, then immediately cutthroat, since Talon lands on the other side of the enemy the Daggers will return to HIM instead of damaging the target twice, so there is no optimization for Rake Cutthroat Rake(hits again) Q for double mark procs.

It was intentional that Talon not be able to get double mark procs off of Rake. If he could get double marks, He could get the silence and the Q bonus damage, which I do NOT intend. It does cause some clarity issues - where it appears like you could get double marks, and it would be frustrating that you can't. There's a change to the mark system in v3 that addresses this.

That aside, I disagree that it would be hard to hit both parts of rake (for double damage, not double marks):

  • If the enemy is running away, you'll still hit them twice
  • If the enemy is running towards you or not running away, just run towards them until the 2nd part of Rake hits, then E to them.

Parts of the following quotes are also me responding to this comment of yours:

I should maybe also add that your kit destroys the best flow of Talon's combo: E-AA-Q-W.

This will be fixed in v3. E-AA-Q-W will feel good.

Since Rake has a monumental cast time (AND IT DOESN'T SLOW NOW!)... tl;dr Talon won't be able to use AAs effectively in trades or stick to his target to AA in all-ins

The AA is MANDATORY. It's not optional "if you want", because otherwise Talon won't have enough damage to kill his target.

Question for you: is the AA something that just feels good, or is it something that is necessary for damage only? Like, say you couldn't slip in any AAs in your combo, but damage was adjusted so you did the same total damage. Is this a bad change?

In conclusion, I don't think the kit is good and it needs more work/thinking - I appreciate that you are trying to come up with new ideas, but I don't think these ideas are contributing to Talon's effectiveness, while they do convey a better thematically basepoint for champion kit.

In my mind, this is a nerf

It's certainly not intended to be a nerf, but I agree that in this form it is, mostly from a playability standpoint, not necessarily a power one (his full e-aa-q-r-e combo is basically identical to the same combo as on live). My primary focus so far has been - as you identified - on getting a better thematic and gameplay base point - not one with balanced numbers

v3 changes are still primarily focused on getting to that better base point, but they should also be a net buff. v4 or v5 will be when I really dig into the numbers -- with the caveat that it's really freakin' hard to balance without testing, so getting a kit that can be balanced is more important than getting on that is balanced.

SouL1ess1 votes

Well TBH I'm not a person for changing Talon, due to the fact that Talon is currently still playable (at my skill level) and it still feels fine playing him the way I always did. However, I am always thinking about possibly ways to change Talon to make him 1)more welcome to LoL meta and expectations and 2)feel better for current Talon players.

I must thank you very much for coming up with these ideas and discussing them with the community. I have my own iteration of proposals based on how I play Talon - it does not necessarily reflect upon a more balanced point of view (see my post as a reply to B3ER). Rather it was just straight up buffs that I wanted to see but understandably will not happen. You put up much more effort than I do to provide solutions to a problem.

Meanwhile, I will respond to some comments you have:

AA being mandatory: most AD assassins are balanced around hitting at least one AA (see: Zed, Kha'zix, Pantheon). All of them have a condition activated by AA. What that balances is that AD assassin cannot reply PURELY on spells for damage and rather are forced to weave AA in between. They are, in essence, weaker than mages for spells but stronger than mages when they successfully weave AA with spells. The fact that the skills scale with AD means that the AAs are naturally good - and since AD assassins can still output decent damage with AAs (theoretically) while spells are on CD, their spell damage cannot be as good as champions who do not have AA effectiveness.

Talon may not have a specific AA-activated condition (mercy is commonly ignored), but he does capitalize on Noxian Diplomacy being an AA reset. And he IS BALANCED by a lack of kill potential for using E-Q-R-W instead of E-AA-Q-R-W. That one AA worth of damage may not be very high, but in MANY or even ALL scenarios it spells the different between kill and fail, and I do not see the AA as something that only feels good.

As far as I know, Riot basically forces all AD assassins to autoattack at least once in their combo, or else their spell damage becomes much too high in comparison to other spell-casters.

For Rake: it is very easy to hit both times, I was only arguing that double-mark-proc is impossible. I make mistakes of jumping in too early with Cutthroat and I have learned from my mistakes.

OhBilly4 votes

For starters, I'd like to emphasize something; Talon did /NOT/ need the nerf. Unlike other Assasins with a /very/ safe playstyle, who combined raw damage, CC, and an easy escape tool, Talon is an 'all in' type of champion. And while those other assassins who had some similarity to his kit (Kassa, LB) had their silence removed, but not their escape / survivability, Talon was left without any real way of doing his job:

Punishing damage dealers who went 'all dmg no survive lol'.

I played Talon quite alot, and I got to play against him from time to time as well. What Talon players dread the most is HP and armor, and while armor penetration on Talon is quite mandatory, its still not enough to overcome stacking either. He just can't burst you THAT GOOD, nor harass you infinitely, as he has a very problematic mana pool.

Survive his 'all in' attitude and you kick his face to the garbage can while earning an easy kill on the way.

/BUILD SURVIVABILITY/.

Jesus christ, nearly all important AP Items have you becoming an half decent tank, even if its a first-purcahse item.

ALL OF HIS DAMAGE IS PHYSICAL FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

Passive; Sure, I actually like it. You can call it a direct buff, since if Talon is sticking around and AA'ing his target, he'll actually get to deal more damage.

Q;

The speed boost is directional to push talon in the direction of “This is an all-in combo.”

So why would he need the speed boost, if his goes in to finish his target instantly? Its not an all in combo if you allow a champion you've harassed for quite some time now the ability to escape. People who stick to the lane without any sustain, yet allow themselves to get hit again and again by a predictable harass /need/ to pay the price for playing dumb.

I'm sorry, but if you have low HP and you see yourself geting harassed again and again, and you're playing against Talon, I would /at least/ trust that you'll go back and maybe restock those potions or build towards lowering Talon's general damage output.

And now you're delaying his damage output, giving his opponent an easy chance to CC-escape or use his own combo on Talon, or use a shield, or use potions, or survive till helps arrives, or anything.

Unlike Talon, you see, mages CAN and WILL become tanky while racking up damage. Talon can't have that. He needs his damage, else he won't do jackshit. He can't allow anyone to survive.

HES FUCKING TALON.

W:

"an aoe slow is way more than any assassin needs on a basic ability."

Thats exactly why alot of Assasins have both that or an AoE/single target hard CC, while Talon has only an AoE slow! (And now a single target useless slow, but we'll get to that) WHILE STILL HAVING A NICE ESCAPE / ENGAGING TOOL THAT ISN'T ON A HUGE CD.

So, you're getting ganked. Or rushed. Or jumped, or whatever. The /really/ logical solution would be to cleverly use E on an enemy unit to disengage, while using his slow to give you an advantage.

Just that now you're asking us to say "Well, screw that. Guess I gota pop that ultimate if I want to live". And even then not only that you blew up your ultimate, the enemy team can still use a sweeper and pound you.

No go.

"Rake now deals less damage to champs unless Talon uses E or R first"

And now you're also taking away his only harassing tool by both lowering its damage /and/ taking away its CC?

But wait, it'll deal normal damage, but you have to engage for it to happen.

And if you don't have your ultimate yet? That's a /serious/ blow to an already bad early game. Not only are you taking away Talon's damage and CC, but you ask the player to dive into someone to deal normal damage / silence him, already taking away more mana for the thing we had before.

--MORE IN THE FOLLOWING COMMENT-

OhBilly2 votes

E;

So, on the playable Talon, this thing did wonders.

This was Talon's IMAGE. You're laning against a guy who can slice your throat in a blink of an eye and unleash all hell upon your miserable existance, or shut down key targets that are either channeling or often win team fights with their abilities.

Silence means you can't cast spells or use abilities, but it doesn't mean you can't move or can't AA.

There are PLENTY of point and click, or otherwise hard to doge heavy CC abilities that deny you even that and open several options to your opponents, and no one bats an eye on those.

Do they have counter play?

"YEZ TENACITI"

But that works on Talon's silence, too. And on top of that, it didn't even deal damage properly. SO WHAT THE FUCK MAN.

"BUT I CAN'T USE ZHONYAS TO LIVE MOAR"

Well, then silence does its job rather than making itself useless! But how about geting an actually /ALL AROUND/ good Item that can even counter Silence, and alot more, like Scimitar / QSS.

Not only that, but you're also dealing /LESS/ damage now that you are forced to go with Q+E to maximize your damage output, rather than go with Basic+E+Q, to reset your attack timer and capitalize on it.

The thing is, people /forced themselves/ to suck against Talon by either building wrong or playing out right dumb, following the honest and most intelligent people at Riot going, and I quote:

"KURWA TALONSKI"

So now he cuts your leg instead of your neck. And he deals less damage, and he can't face mages. At all.

Talon /needs/ his hard CC. Think of him like the hunter from L4D;

You punish those who play bad, or you can use your abilities to innitiate something bigger than just 1 one 1 combat by taking out someone important.

He needs his silence.

R;

Don't know what to think of this. If It didn't pass through, I don't like this 'Impending doom' suggestion at all, and would rather want to see Talon as he was before this moronic change.

I do like the bleeding though. But that's about it.

If anything, have him gain movement speed after a bleeding target dies, or a big fat juicy AD bonus.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Mrph. I wrote a nice, detailed reply to you, then lost it when I accidentally went back a page. tl;dr:

I commented a bunch on this thread in the last couple days; go read my replies scattered around, they'll address large parts of your post. I agree with some of your analysis and disagree with others; I'm not going to respond to the individual suggestions at this point because I've got version 3 of this post coming out soon and it makes more sense just to show you that. Know that I read and considered your post before writing v3.

Dryad Soraka4 votes

How about no

d3v1lk1n1 votes

How about no

this

Hyrum Graff1 votes

PSA: Upvoting gets your message across just as well.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Why not?

Earl Eulrich4 votes

I think this sort of pattern fits better to a Bruiser/Fighter than to this Assassin...you shouldn´t have to stack up first before your spell actually deals dmg - especially on an all in Champ like Talon. there´s no way you get to poke your targets first with w in a normal clash, so it would really hurt his dmg-output massively in almost all circumstances. THough this is basically his problem...all-in is not a healthy pattern for an Assassin, as it makes his sucess-case overwhelming for his opponent, while not allowing him for making plays when he falls behind.

So first of he would need more mobility/a retreat mechanism that is not tied to an easy to counter stealth - then you could make his burst-pattern a little less bursty, but equaly strong if he can get some time to deal dmg by outmanouvering his opponents. (and I never liked the passive...auto-attack steroid on an AD-Caster isn´t a good way to go, crit should not be a desired stat on an assassin).

Hyrum Graff1 votes

@Don Eulrich:

I wrote a bunch of responses yesterday which respond to basically all of your points, so I'm going to make my responses here short and sweet.

More of a bruiser than an assassin pattern -snip-

If everything goes well, I hope talon will end up with a viable bruiser off-build. His primary build will still be an assassin, though.

Damage stacking up -snip-

He'll have a slightly different combo, but a full rotation will actually be slightly more burst damage than live, IF AND ONLY IF he doesn't use his silence. If he uses the silence he'll definitely have less damage. Significantly less. But that's OK, because the silence is designed to let him trade in lane.

All-in pattern isn't healthy on assassins.

Agreed; I talk about that in-depth elsewhere. Basically, right now talon is forced into using his ult for damage. I aim to give him more options (escape).

That being said, a trade will involve talon going in and using his silence to avoid taking return damage as he walks back to his wave.

Burst pattern less bursty -snip-

That's the idea behind moving more damage into the bleed. It's also why it feels like Talon can fit a bruiser paradigm. There's not a hard-and-fast cutoff between a bursty assassin and a dps bruiser. It's a spectrum.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

There are some problems though:

If everything goes well, I hope talon will end up with a viable bruiser off-build. His primary build will still be an assassin, though.

The problems remain, on an Assassin those builds don´t really differ much...more AD will always add to sustained dmg aswell as to their burst. On Zed e.g. the less bursty build with more sustained dmg (Botrk+Ghostblade vs Hydra+BC) is the dominant one. On Talon it´s even worse, as it seems that the melee-carry build is the most common (Ghostblade+IE), on a Champ without real melee-carry-traits (ivulnerablity/dodge/massive-steroids/some more mobility). This just leads to less counterplay than intended, as you mostly get all traits from the burst-pattern - and if your victim survives the Burst you´ll just dps it down (pretty much the reason why Zed dominated all of S3 and is still a primary pick as AD-Assassin -midgame you canßt counter his burst-pattern, lategame you canßt coutner his melee-carry-pattern). So for me it would be actually important to not let AD-Assassins scale well with Crit or AS.

That being said, a trade will involve talon going in and using his silence to avoid taking return damage as he walks back to his wave.

You should never design (nor pick) a Champion just for his laning, it´s really the minor part of the game. Teamfighting is just way more important, and the silence had pretty much been the only reason to ever pick Talon over any other Assassin. If he can´t utilize it in a teamfight and still do potent dmg you´ll just always end up taking Zed over Talon...or you end up with a Champion whose sole purpose is splitpushing, which is rather unsatisfying and one-dimensional (not to mention annoying for any opposition, looking @nid).

Hyrum Graff1 votes

@Don Eulrich:

The problems remain, on an Assassin those builds don´t really differ much...more AD will always add to sustained dmg aswell as to their burst. On Zed e.g. the less bursty build with more sustained dmg (Botrk+Ghostblade vs Hydra+BC) is the dominant one. On Talon it´s even worse, as it seems that the melee-carry build is the most common (Ghostblade+IE), on a Champ without real melee-carry-traits (ivulnerablity/dodge/massive-steroids/some more mobility). This just leads to less counterplay than intended, as you mostly get all traits from the burst-pattern - and if your victim survives the Burst you´ll just dps it down (pretty much the reason why Zed dominated all of S3 and is still a primary pick as AD-Assassin -midgame you can't counter his burst-pattern, lategame you can't coutner his melee-carry-pattern). So for me it would be actually important to not let AD-Assassins scale well with Crit or AS.

This is something I'm not sure exactly how I want to address, yet. I don't think it's as much of a problem on talon as on Zed, because, unlike Zed, Talon lacks any kind of survivablility. Zed can afford to build full damage (maybe, plus a GA) and rely on his mobility and ult to avoid damage. Talon can't do that as well. If he wants to have enough time to get in AAs without getting popped he's going to need some defensive itemization.

Therefore, he'll have two builds. One will be pure damage, with the objective of popping a single target as fast as possible. The other will be 2ish tank items, with the objective of splitting, or jumping into a fight and causing chaos, or whatever it is that bruisers do (I personally don't play bruisers much).

You should never design (nor pick) a Champion just for his laning, it´s really the minor part of the game. Teamfighting is just way more important, and the silence had pretty much been the only reason to ever pick Talon over any other Assassin. If he can´t utilize it in a teamfight and still do potent dmg you´ll just always end up taking Zed over Talon...or you end up with a Champion whose sole purpose is splitpushing, which is rather unsatisfying and one-dimensional (not to mention annoying for any opposition, looking @nid).

The tl;dr of my v3 changes is that Talon's combo system will become more meaningful. Hopefully, one result of this will be that Talon will have different reasons to pick different combos, outside of laning phase.

Maybe your team has follow-up cc, and you really want to silence veigar so he can't drop his ult on someone, even though it means you won't have the damage to finish him yourself. (W-E-Q-W) Maybe you got in range of a priority target and you just want to pop them. (E-Q-W-Q) Maybe you caught someone out, and need to cc them so your team can catch up and collapse on them. (E-W-Q-W)

That's all for teasers ;)

Prismatic3 votes

I really like the idea of giving talon a meaningful combo system, and IMO, this would be such a way of doing that. I'm quite bored of having each talon combo be EWQ with an ult somewhere in there. That, and the change to his Q would be much more satisfying to use, rather than a minor attack buff with pitiful damage over time. Although it's a great change, I'd rather lower or remove the ad ratio on his Q, but move the AD ratio onto his passive, so that he has some incentive to follow up to an assassination attempt, instead of just being a poke assassin (get in, blow all your spells, get out, repeat).

Other than that, I really love the idea.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

@Prismatic:

I really like the idea of giving talon a meaningful combo system, and IMO, this would be such a way of doing that.

Good to hear, because that's the direction my next iteration is going in (a better combo system)!

I'd rather lower or remove the ad ratio on his Q, but move the AD ratio onto his passive,

It's not going to be exactly this, but I am going to be shifting around quite a few numbers in v3.

so that he has some incentive to follow up to an assassination attempt, instead of just being a poke assassin (get in, blow all your spells, get out, repeat).

This, along with the combo system comments, are the most helpful feedback; I'm less interested in what particular changes to make (I'm pretty good at coming up with those myself, and I almost always end up changing them multiple times before settling on something, so any suggestions you make likely will get changed as I'm thinking through the next iteration anyway), and more interested in why they should be made.

Other than that, I really love the idea.

Thanks! :)

ˇ0ˇ2 votes

I like the overall direction of the changes, but one of my main concerns, and one that is shared by a lot of Talon mains, is that in these changes Talon gets his utility lowered no matter how you look at it. This is a double whammy when considered with his increased difficulty. Before, Talon had big, uncounterable point and click damage with not much variation in his play style. Not very fun for the receiving end. Now, Talon has variation and increased difficulty, yes, but since he has to jump through different hoops and caveats to achieve a desired effect while receiving no buffs to his damage, this is seen as a rather large nerf. Since I don't play Talon, I can't speak to the feel or flow of his kit and how that may or may not reflect what Talon mains like to see and want to keep. What I can say is that making a champion harder and removing utility without giving any compensation feels really shitty to any players of that champion. Since Talon has always been a very high risk, high reward champion, he needs to have a higher reward if his risk just got higher. Increasing his ult damage if they were previously marked in the last x seconds, or making his E also apply damage if they were previously marked may remedy this.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

@IntrospectionMan:

in these changes Talon gets his utility lowered no matter how you look at it.

Perhaps, but a small one; in this rework, I intend for Talon to keep his micro-slow. Compared to live Talon, this rework:

  • Loses an aoe slow
  • Gains a conditional silence / MS buff

What I can say is that making a champion harder and removing utility without giving any compensation feels really shitty to any players of that champion.

Agreed. I am giving talon a buff to his damage, if he chooses to lead with his E instead of marking them first.

I'm also looking for other ways to give him compensation buffs, but with his current kit, this is really hard to do. Because it's still difficult to avoid talon's burst combo, (how to dodge e-q-r-w?), I can't give him that much more burst or he'll be able to 100-0 so quickly that it won't matter if they're silenced or not. This is one reason why I opted to give him the damage buff on his bleed damage, so Talon's opponents will have a chance to be saved by an ally while they're ticking towards death, or for a shield/heal to come off cd.

Talon in general is very difficult to balance, because he's so reliable, but has so little outplay potential; That is, he has all of his power available to him, all the time (as long as his skills are up), and has almost no way to avoid his opponent's skills. Compare to Kha'Zix, who has a very clear case where he's strong (if he gets you alone) and, with his ult, has the ability to avoid a fair amount of damage and outplay.

The clear case of strength/weakness allows Kha to be manageable most of the time, but also to feel awesome when he does get someone alone. The outplay potential allows the Great Kha's to differentiate themselves from rest of the pack - which allows the Great Kha's to shine.

Actually, with my rework, Talon does have a single case where he has a LARGE spike in his power level. Unfortunately, it's a fairly rare one:

When an enemy assassin jumps on Talon, he can:

  • immediately ult, hopefully disrupting their combo.
  • E to them, silencing them and amplifying his damage
    • His ult will re-mark them on its way back
    • Silence + micro-slow = microstun
  • Rake them for full damage
  • Hit them with his Q (full damage and bonus)
  • AA a couple times to finish them off

With this combo, he's able to get his silence, the bonus mark damage on Rake, AND the bonus mark damage on Q. That should be enough to 100-10 most assassins, and his passive should let him finish them with relative ease. This is especially useful for punishing assassins who try to jump on Talon's carries in teamfights.

It IS a change to Talon's identity, but I think that it's a good change. It fits talon's lore, and gives him more of a unique niche within league.

#Edit, that I think is important so I'm highlighting it:

Talon has 2 point-and-click abilities which pretty much only have one use (single-target, all-in assassination). If you're not doing all-in assassination, those two abilities are useless. Since having two useless abilities sucks, talon is forced into doing all-in assassinations. In order for an all-in assassination to work, talon needs all of his ult and W's damage for the burst, instead of doing arguably cooler things (like using his ult to escape after an attempted kill, successful or not, or using his ult for the speed boost, to close the gap when chasing a low hp opponent - because doing these just feels like you're crippling your assassination ability.).

I've got some new ideas on how to give talon some opportunities for mastery, which I'll be including in v3 of this post. Let's leave it at, I'm inspired by Karma's combo system (the way she has 3 ults, which all have clear times when they're better or worse, and what seperates the good karmas from the bad is using the right ult in the right scenario - not that talon's ult will empower a basic ability).

Sire Hippington1 votes

As a talon player, i do agree, removing the slow from W is not the way to go.

hobomann21 votes

AD assassin brand and there is nothing wrong with that

Nielarken1 votes

Riot Give This Man A Job! I like this idea you have more of a choice in how you enter into a fight.

DUDE BRO1 votes

Honestly, I think this is all they need to do:

E: Cutthroat Talon instantly appears behind his target, silencing them and amplifying his damage against that target for 3 seconds. If Noxian (Q)Diplomacy is used on the target in this time, they are silenced for 0.5/0.75/1/1.25/1.5 seconds.

This way E still allows a silence, but it's only applied to his Q after dashing in, so the enemy still has a small window to flash/stun/dash/etc.

Since E is maxed last, it also leaves it as a minor 0.5s silence for a while. Also, his Q cast/attack speed can be slightly slower to give just a little more reaction time for the enemy.

Zyvux1 votes

As many people above already stated, this kit just doesn't work for talon at all. It's a good kit, don't get me wrong, but it completely guts talon's main features. This would be better suited on a bruiser of sorts, with some edits ofc.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I think the thing that most people are missing is that New Talon's E-W-Q-R-Q combo will actually do more damage than live (e-q-r-w will do pretty much the same damage as live). IF Talon opts for NO silence, his damage is actually getting a buff.

If he opts for a silence, he'll pay for it in damage.

SouL1ess1 votes

New Talon will deal more damage if he hits with E W Q R Q.

That's 2 Noxian stabs.

It will OBVIOUSLY deal more damage than E Q R W, which has only one Noxian Diplomacy in it.

Old Talon will deal more damage if he hits with E Q W R Q.

That's the same number of skills used.

but there is better flow to it. Easier to use, actually easier to stick because it's an multi-target slow that allow you to stick much better than a movement speed boost. It's also faster by having burst frontloaded onto E-AA-Q for burst.

But I'm not arguing for this kit's late game, since I don't even see Talon making it past laning phase.

The important part is that Talon loses ranged trading potential and he can't afford to go in that often. You are placing him in a position where he is ineffective if he does not jump on you every trade, but he also loses every trade if he jumps on you.

Talon has no real trading potential right now. His trading potential comes from, more so than before, abusing the enemy's mistakes. You can only go in if the enemy misses a skill because you won't win a straight-up trade at all. If you take away Talon's ranged harass then Talon is absolutely unfit for mid lane.

And I'm just gonna say that I am not even asking for a silence. I disagree with your kit because you are trying to force something onto me (when I'm fine without it), and then breaking everything integral to my playstyle. So while I appreciate your ideas, I do not think this is a good direction to go.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I'll respond to the easy part of your reply (see edit at top of OP).

New Talon will deal more damage if he hits with E W Q R Q.

That's 2 Noxian stabs.

It will OBVIOUSLY deal more damage than E Q R W, which has only one Noxian Diplomacy in it.

I should clarify: my intent is that, if talon forgoes his silence, he'll have more total damage per same number of ability casts, though his combo order may be slightly different.

The single-rotation combo (although I tend to think 2 stabs would be better) that talon would use is E-(AA if you want)-Q-R-W.

If my numbers are off so that this combo doesn't do as much damage, I'll adjust the Q detonation bonus damage accordingly.

SouL1ess1 votes

Do you play Talon enough? The AA is MANDATORY. It's not optional "if you want", because otherwise Talon won't have enough damage to kill his target.

Nevertheless: then your combo suggestion hasn't deviated from what Talon already does. Talon's best assassination build is high Crit high AD for maximizing E-AA-Q damage, the next optimal assassination is Armourpen/AD for killing with E-AA-Q-R-W. In all cases Talon requires a Cutthroat starter.

Your kit did not change that, nor did it change whether Talon can have a silence in later stages of the game. Talon still will never reach with Rake (assuming Rake functions similar to current) and therefore will never get to silence. Considering how Talon cannot afford to lose any damage component with the armourpen/AD build, he will also never have the incentive to begin with a low-damage rake.

As aforementioned, the important part is that Talon's laning phase will become very, very difficult to live through with the new kit in effect. He has no ranged trading potential and he do not have the capability to go all-in every trade attempt unlike others like Fizz. Without anywhere near a good early game, Talon's mid-late-game are mediocre at the very best, and horrible if anything goes wrong.

B3ER1 votes

You're taking a lot of power away from W and you're not really giving it back. Additionally you're making that power conditional. W dealing half damage against unmarked targets means no more stray pickups. Slow removal means no more chase when your E and R are on CD and you're not close enough for Q. Slow removal also makes you unable to disengage and kite opponents.

I don't feel like Talon is the mark placing Assassin. I feel like he's more suitable as a gruesome master of shadows that kills you with blades and knives. Therefore I'd rather center these buffs around making his targets bleed and amping his skills off of the bleed rather than the mark.

#My proposal is to let Rake and Shadow Assault apply weak bleeds (Max 60 damage over 4 seconds).

Q: Noxian Diplomacy doesn't apply the bleed, still is an on hit auto reset and extends the bleeding to current levels if the target is already bleeding. Talon's bleeds apply to minions and monsters as well now. It contains the damage amp as a passive.

W: Rake stays the same, loses some damage to compensate for the bleed, no slow.

E: Cutthroat slows but when done on a bleeding target it slows and silences. This slow is stronger than what Rake currently has and lasts 1 second.

R: Shadow Assault gets the Adrenaline passive that scales with levels.

Your passive remains as is.

#Summary Meaningful decisions still exist, combo's still exist, loss of AoE ranged slow goes to a strong single target slow with a conditional silence on top. Talon gets more access to his movement speed while in combat and poking, loses it out of combat (no bleeding targets).

What do you think?

SouL1ess1 votes

Put the bleed description on passive (like Daggers cause bleeding or something) and have bleed damage scale with level. (As in really weak level 1 but much better lvl 8, following design constraint on Twitch). Bleed has no AD or AP scaling. I think the bleed will scale at 10+(3 per level) physical damage. This would be 10 at lvl 1 scaling to 61 at level 18. The bleed duration is 5 seconds. Talon's basic attacks on targets associated with a DoT from any sources has 10% increased damage.

Rake unchanged please?

Noxian Diplomacy applies the current Noxian Diplomacy bleed but deals its damage over 3 seconds and still reveals for 6 seconds. After the Noxian Diplomacy bleed ends, Talon gains 5/10/15/20/25 MS when moving toward the revealed target. If the target dies while bleeding, Talon gets a 50 MS bonus for 2 seconds.

Cutthroat silence lasts for 0.35 rank 1, scales up to 0.75 max rank. <- I'm not even sure about this since people would still complain about silences on assassins. Cutthroat is fine as is IMO.

Shadow Assault daggers retract after 2.5 seconds, and Talon ends stealth, however after daggers retract, the bonus MS becomes a 40% bonus MS tapering off over 1 second. Not sure what is the Adrenlin passive (mundo?) but I didn't plan to put that in.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

@SouL1ess

Put the bleed description on passive (like Daggers cause bleeding or something) and have bleed damage scale with level. (following design constraint on Twitch). [Numbers]

This is an interesting idea. I'd be interested to hear more about what you think the benefits of scaling with level are, compared to scaling with AD or skill level.

Rake unchanged please?

I'm not planning on this, but in v3 I am planning on making some changes to rake that will be more appealing to you, I think.

Noxian Diplomacy applies the current Noxian Diplomacy bleed but deals its damage over 3 seconds and still reveals for 6 seconds. After the Noxian Diplomacy bleed ends, Talon gains 5/10/15/20/25 MS when moving toward the revealed target. If the target dies while bleeding, Talon gets a 50 MS bonus for 2 seconds.

What's the advantage of not giving talon the MS boost while the target is bleeding, but when they stop bleeding? I think the MS on kill is interesting, but not something I just want to tack on, as it gives him a lot of power that might be better spent elsewhere. I also think that it may not be necessary following my v3 changes. Stay tuned :)

Cutthroat silence lasts for 0.35 rank 1, scales up to 0.75 max rank

I'm opposed to this. One of the major motivations for this rework is that the silence removal really made talon take a hit in many lane matchups; a .35 sec silence is not going to be enough for talon to get that power back, and if talon maxes E it's at the expense of his damage -> his ability to assassinate, so I'd rather spend his power budget in a place where I think it'll make more of a difference.

I'm also not sure whether this change is in replacement to mine (the mark) or in addition; if it's in replacement (ie, talon gets a guaranteed silence), I don't think that's healthy.

Shadow Assault daggers retract after 2.5 seconds, and Talon ends stealth, however after daggers retract, the bonus MS becomes a 40% bonus MS tapering off over 1 second.

Why do you want this? It's a little bit of extra power whose purpose I don't quite understand.

Not sure what is the Adrenlin passive (mundo?) but I didn't plan to put that in.

It was just what I called the speed boost I put on the Q, when moving towards bleeding enemies.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

@B3ER:

You're taking a lot of power away from W and you're not really giving it back. Additionally you're making that power conditional. W dealing half damage against unmarked targets means no more stray pickups. Slow removal means no more chase when your E and R are on CD and you're not close enough for Q. Slow removal also makes you unable to disengage and kite opponents.

I agree with you that this iteration of talon is a little weak, and I agree with your reasoning why. I'm looking for ways to give that power back. In this comment, I talk about why I'm hesitant to give him straight-up buffs

I don't feel like Talon is the mark placing Assassin. I feel like he's more suitable as a gruesome master of shadows that kills you with blades and knives. Therefore I'd rather center these buffs around making his targets bleed and amping his skills off of the bleed rather than the mark.

Okay, I agree with you here that talon is not a champ who feels like he's marking people, and then hunting them down (that's nid). Despite the fact that this entire freakin' rework revolves around a mark.

More detail: Here's what I think it should be like to fight against talon, IRL, as inspired by the info on this page, which contains his client bio, and league judgement. My amateur writing notwithstanding, I think this will nonetheless provide insight into the way I imagine his 'feel' AND his gameplay:

You've finally succeeded in flushing him out, and now he flees through the city, slinging blades back at you, trying to wearing you down. But you won't give up, you'll find this heartless criminal and end him, once and for all. If you and your two accomplices can get your hands on him, he'll go down. Soon, he's backed against a wall, no way out. Or so you thought. He unleashes a volley of blades, and vanishes into the shadows. Dread fills you and your comrades. Where could he be? Is he running, or just selecting the first of his targets? Another volley of blades. Throat slit. Gutted. One of your number bleeding out on the ground. He's dueling the other. Blades flash. Cold steel saps your strength. Your partner has already been injured; You know how this fight ends, and take your leave. Three blocks, a dark alley, a place to hide and regain your strength. Then you notice the trail of blood you've left. The sound of... a blade at your throat. You should never have taken this job.

The mark is there to give him a combo system, not to create much gameplay for his opponent, necessarily. It'll be kind of like brand. You don't go, "Oh, brand used his E so now I've got his passive on me; better back down until it wears off," because brand is already casting his other skills - which you're trying to avoid; that's where the gameplay is.

That being said, I do believe a mark can fit thematically with Talon's kit. I was considering calling it a "Mark of Apprehension" or 'Mark of Vulnerability" but I suck at names and couldn't decide; Back to the story - when talon ults, and everyone has that feeling of dread: that's what "being marked" feels like. It's not like a nid mark, where you know she's coming for YOU (or if he is clearly coming for you, by the time you're marked it's too late to have that moment of dread, because Talon is already on you), it's a feeling of "Oh shit, someone is going to die, I hope it's not me." Would it feel better if I didn't change any of the mechanics, but just the particles, and called it a debuff? (like leona's passive, which behaves JUST like a mark, but doesn't really feel like a mark at all to me)

All this being said, bleeding is going to play a more prominent role in v3 of his kit, although I need to watch out for overlap with Darius.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

@B3ER

My proposal -snip-

In general I like them, but - much like my changes in v2 - there are still problems they don't solve. Namely, that Talon's Q and E limit his playstyle and provide him with very little opportunity for mastery.

I have a lot of changes, some of which I've taken from your proposal, that I think will improve all of this and more, in v3. I don't really need any more feedback on this version, just time to iron out a few kinks, so stay tuned and I'll drop you a link to v3 when I'm done with it.

acepil0t1 votes

I don't have a huge preference as to what they do to Talon directly, but he needs his identity back. I mained him up until 4.17 and now I never use him except for the occasional jungle adventure. He just lost too much, with a measly excuse for power compensation. He is no longer a cutthroat champion but a cut-ankle champion and that is not who he was meant to be.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Could you talk a little more about what you see his identity as?

What I hear you saying so far is that:

  • A silence is core to his identity
  • He's lost too much power to feel good

I'm curious about: what he's like, both from a "personality" side and a "gameplay" side. Does he lurking on the sidelines, waiting to clean up? Does he jump in first, then disappear? Does he like to avoid engaging, but if you engage on him, he'll kill you and then disappear into the shadows?

I personally feel like Talon's short lore and League Judgement page do a good job of explaining him.

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