ornn... AD?

Quil Evrything·Sep 4, 2017·2 votes·6,605 views

Seems like conventional wisdom wants to play ornn as tank. but.. he has a crap winrate anyways. so.. what about bruiser? he has 100% scaling on his Q. let me say that again... One Hundred Percent.

I had fun building sterak's gage on Ornn toplane, and messing around with 250AD. I mixed it up with some defence items(righteous glory, abyssal mask, randuins), and maramune. once I got that build, it was working nicely.

damage, and 3700HP+ which gives a 440HP shield on W for 2.5 seconds, every 6 seconds. Fun fun.

30 Comments

TwinkieProSep 4, 20174 votes

I prefer tri on him, makes his W hit like a truck. Although its hard to build on him as he really needs tankiness first.

ZaphasSep 4, 20173 votes

Huh, I might have to "tri" this out. (hohohoho 10/10 pun) Popping brittle stacks already feels fucking amazing, and popping them with an extra 200% base AD hit probably feels even better bolstered by some sweet sweet Sterak's Gage (which I usually already get).

Edit: It felt pretty fkn good. I did have a Soraka on my team though, which definitely kept me alive during times I probably should have died, so I dunno if I'd do this build on a team without a healer like her. Game actually ended before I could start building the beefiness to get tanky.

PunisherTmanNov 15, 20181 votes

I've been building trinity force on Ornn for a long time now as the straight tank builds are a lot less fun and make me feel less significant in the long run. I still build mostly tanky afterwards but also prioritize movement speed because ornn is normally sooo sloooow. Trinity Force, Boots of Swiftness, Deadmans Plate, Warmogs, is my go to build, with the last 2 items depending on the enemy team and who gets fed (Abyssal Mask and Spirit Visage for Magic Resist) (Gargoyle Stoneplate if we are team fighting a lot) (Adaptive Helm if one ability is messing up my team(Singed, Malzahar, Azir, Teemo), going into Righteous Glory if there is no one to counter build for even MORE movement speed. Nobody expects Ornn to be fast so its great being able to play aggressive to chase people to get kills, or escape getting rotated on by enemy team.

This build gives the W shield a lot of heft since almost every item builds health (including trinity). Lots of damage on brittle proc from trinity force and deadmans plate. Some armor and MR give scaling damage to his E and the AD from trinity give his Q a little extra power (Especially with masterwork). I've seen a lot of (unranked) success with this build and it is TONS of fun. People always ask why I do sooo much damage and still stay tanky. Trinity Force is a great item.

Meep ManSep 4, 20173 votes

he has 100% scaling on his Q.

That's not a lot to be honest considering the base damage is crap and the ability is usually limited to a single champion unless they are clumped up. I find it better to just make use of the abundant damage already attached to his kit for just building Tank (W base damage, Brittle proc damage, and E defense scaling). Also, a build based around a single ratio doesn't work typically unless it is an ultimate.

The big thing is why would I play AD/Bruiser Ornn when there are better champions to fulfill that role. Is the build fun? Yeah, probably. But if we are talking about it as far as "Is this the best way to build Ornn and play him to take advantage of the strengths he provides that no other champions do", I would say no.

DeathBurstSep 4, 20172 votes

Thank you! I just spent 6 posts trying to explain that Ornn is a far better Tank than a Bruiser and that it's a bad idea to build damage, but apparently I can't reach through to OP... I hope you'll have more luck.

DeathBurstSep 4, 20172 votes

You know what else has a 100% AD ratio? Basic attacks. And every champion has them, and they have a much lower CD than Ornn's Q. That doesn't mean any champ can be built bruiser.

As for Ornn specifically, I don't think it's a good idea. Even with that build, you should still deal less damage than any Juggernaut (Darius, Illaoi, Yorick,...) with comparative durability. But time will tell.

Quil EvrythingSep 4, 20171 votes

"you do less damage than darius! therefore..."

yeah, any argument that starts like that fails, sorry :)

interesting comparison with yorrick. thats almost matching. the big difference there being that, while yorrick has a zero-damage ability, he also has ludicrous sustain.

I think that what makes ornn unique, is that his Q damages ALL things in a line. So it's good to play around that. ie: you dont have to choose between farm or trading with enemy. you can go for both. even against ranged to some degree.

DeathBurstSep 4, 20172 votes

No you can't. Any laner with half a brain simply won't stand behind a low health minion, and here goes your whole plan...

And even if you dismiss Darius, for some reason, my point is: even if you build damage items on Ornn, you will still do less damage than Champs who are actually supposed to do damage, while not being more tanky than they are. Any of them, not just Darius. You don't fulfill your intended role of Tank, and you badly fulfill your assumed role of damage dealer. What's the point? If you do want to do damage, play any Juggernaut, not a Tank, and if you want to play Ornn, play him as he's supposed to be played, not in a weird sub-optimal way.

As for my first paragraph, really, it's about your fallacy in presenting the Q ratio. "let me say that again... One Hundred Percent." Yeah, well, a 100% AD ratio over a whole kit is terribly bad, and absolutely not a good reason to build any AD on that champ. Check ANY champ that regularly builds AD, and you'll see total ratios over the whole kit of 250-300%, easy.

Quil EvrythingSep 4, 20171 votes

problem is that pretty much every other juggernaut has sustain (ESPECIALLY darius!). orn does not. So he makes a lousy tank. If you get zero help from jungler, you're going to have a horrible solo lane experience unless you build AD, and use Q to farm/harrass.

DeathBurstSep 4, 20172 votes

I'm sorry but you need to check your definitions. Juggernauts (and especially Darius) are NOT Tanks, and yes, they all have sustain, but Tanks do not always. Tanks are champions like: Amumu, Sejuani, Sion, Gallio, Nautilus, Leona, etc. None of the champs I just cited has sustain, and yet they are generally regarded as pretty decent Tanks. Ornn is just the same. (Yes, there are a couple Tanks with sustain, but there are good Tanks without sustain, so it proves that Tanks don't NEED sustain to be viable.)

So, Ornn has no sustain, and he makes a pretty lousy Juggernaut, yes. That's why you should not build damage on him. But he's a pretty decent Tank.

And if you get 0 help from your jungler, you just wave clear maxing W, which also has the added benefit of giving a big shield on a short cooldown to resist the enemy harass.

See mate, when you phrase your OP as a question, it implies you want an answer. If you're so sure about your idea and just dismiss the rest as bullshit, it's kind of pointless to ask a question in the first place. Just state your opinion, it will be clearer.

Quil EvrythingSep 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

See mate, when you phrase your OP as a question, it implies you want an answer.

no, it means I want discussion. not "I will go with whatever anyone else says". you posted your opinion. I gave reasons why I disagree with it. And seems like other people also agree with my viewpoint.

DeathBurstSep 4, 20171 votes

The "other people" who upvoted you and downvoted me?

And I mean, I didn't just state my opinion and called it quit. Do you deny that Nautilus, for instance, is a perfectly decent Tank that has no sustain? Or Sejuani? Or Gallio and Sion, if you want some that actually have to play in lane and resist an opponent's harass? Juggernauts do need sustain, preferably in-combat sustain, the only one who doesn't have some is Garen and that's one of his bigger issues. Tanks, on the other hand, do not, as I abundantly illustrated, and claiming that Ornn is a "lousy Tank" because he doesn't have sustain is a flawed reasoning.

Claiming that you should build AD because he has 100% AD ratio on Q is another flawed reasoning, because pretty much all champs that actually build AD have two or three times this ratio, and there are champs with better ratios that still don't build AD (example out of the top of my head: Poppy, she builds no AD and yet she has 100% on the shield throw, 80% on the Hammer, and 2x50% on the wall stun).

So what's left? No good reason to buy AD, and no good reason to believe Ornn is a bad Tank. My conclusion is that Ornn is a good Tank that should build Tank items, and not AD. But sure, follow those other people opinions. I don't care, it's your MMR.

Quil EvrythingSep 4, 20171 votes

okay. yes, you gave examples of decent tanks with no sustain. however, all those guys have either Double shield, or DOUBLE CC. or a combinatino of BOTH. look at naut: massive shield, AND actually TRIPLE CC. sej: 2.5 CC, PLUS some kind of special damage debuf. Sion.. again, 2.5x Cc. PLUS shield.

compare this to orn: one shield, but he effectively CC's HIMSELF to use it!! i mean WTF riot. and almost no Cc. I'll give him a .5 for the wall thing, and .5 for the Q slow. THe wall thing is horrible because its a skill shot, AND you need a wall around. without a wall, you cannot use it as CC at all.

so no. in comparison to other REAL tanks out there.. he is NOT a tank. bruiser at best.

EDIT: also.. THAT ULT>. Ughhh. If you want to make it useful, ornn MUST NOT be tank. because you need to stay free of CC for 2-3 seconds to make it count. whereas main tank will be hard CC'd 50% of the time, and DEFINITELY CC'd after he's made his obvious "I just used my ult, so let me hang around and leave me alone until I can REALLY use it..."

DeathBurstSep 4, 20172 votes

Ornn doesn't "CC himself", he's unstoppable. Got hit by a Yasuo Q? You're not bumped. Got hit by a Trista or Poppy R? You're not knocked away. Got hit by a Morgana cage? You can still move forward 300 units. That's the opposite of a downside.

The "wall thing" is worth at least 1, if not 1.5. It's an AoE knock-up on a basic ability. And you don't "need a wall around", 'cause you have your bloody Q to create your own knock-up center wherever you want. As for the slow on the Q, I won't count it at all (Tanks should only count hard CC), but it's there so that it's easy to hit the E skill-shot. Much harder to miss a skill-shot when the enemy is slowed to a crawl.

And his R is a pretty much guaranteed slow once you've practiced a few times and know the exact range, because you can make it spawn right in the middle of the enemy team, and once they are slowed, the second part is much easier to line up (see Q+E combo above), so that's worth at least 1, if not 2. And no, you won't get insta-hit by CC, 'cause you're supposed to use it from max range, to get that guaranteed slow, so you're too far for them to retaliate.

And with all of that, we haven't even mentioned the new Brittle debuff. Increasing all hard CC by 30% in an AoE cone is worth at least 1 more. And let's not forget your own attacks knock-back brittle targets, without the need for any other ability.

Ornn is a fine Tank. A pretty fine Tank. You just need to understand how the kit works. And it does NOT work by poking people with this pitiful Q. Q is the LEAST interesting of his abilities, it's basically just here to create a pillar for your E, that's all. Think of it like Anivia wall or Trundle pillar, and you won't be far from the truth. That's the skill Trundle and Anivia max last, not their main laning tool.

Quil EvrythingSep 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ornn doesn't "CC himself", he's unstoppable.

aand.. moves at 1/2 speed. in a straight line, uncontrollable. Thats basically like being ahri-charmed. which. is. hard. cc.

he'ccs himself.

{quoted} And his R is a pretty much guaranteed slow once you've practiced a few times and know the exact range, because you can make it spawn right in the middle of the enemy team,

so, you're saying you should be at max range away from team fights, to be effective with ornn's ult.

which.. gee.. is the exact opposite of where a tank should be.

Thanks for PROVING what I said, rather then countering it.

DeathBurstSep 4, 20171 votes

Having to use his ult from afar doesn't make him a better Bruiser than a Tank, so it doesn't further your own point. But anyway, what I'm saying is: you should launch your engage from afar, and then follow it up with your 3 other CC's, including, you know, a dash-in to close the gap, while they are bumped up.

And if you think having the ability to say at will "NO, you can't knock me away" is just as bad as being charmed by an opponent, well.... I guess you didn't play often enough against: Yasuo, Poppy, Vayne, Alistar, Jayce, Gragas, .... Being unstoppable against their knock-back prevent them from peeling/ulting you, and as soon as your W finishes you're still right in their face to continue smashing them with your CCs.

Also, I can't help but notice I provided 5 arguments and you only (badly) answered to 2 of them. Does that mean you agree with the other 3? In that case, who has proved which point again?

Quil EvrythingSep 4, 20171 votes

the "you cant knock me away" only lasts 2 seconds. Its almost useless. the only way it can be useful, is if you can actually kill them or scare them away in that 2 seconds. Which you Cant, if you Do No Damage. I didnt bother replying to any of your supposedly other 3 arguments, because just those two alone make him a bad main tank. he amkes a reasonable secondary tank. Or he might be okay if your team is ahead and has massive other damage dealers. But as a general purpose sole tank? horrible. Cant lane (against any oppoment higher than maybe bronze 4), therefore cant get gold, therefore cant get get items he NEEDS to be tank.

REAL tanks, have fixed amount, level scaling shields or resistances. orn's shield is dependant on his max health to be useful. Which means you MUST HAVE gold to increase his health....otherwise, useless.

DeathBurstSep 5, 20172 votes

the "you cant knock me away" only lasts 2 seconds. Its almost useless. the only way it can be useful, is if you can actually kill them or scare them away in that 2 seconds.

What? Have you heard about Reactive casting? As in "you see the skill shot in the air, you click the button to not get knocked away"? And BAM, they wasted a cooldown, and they just throwed themselves into your Brittle debuff.

REAL tanks, have fixed amount, level scaling shields or resistances.

Suuuure. Like Sion? (No, %maxHP shield.) Like Malphite? (No, same as Sion.) Like Amumu? (No, zero defensive steroid, except the measly flat DR on his E passive that's only good against minions.) Like Zac? (No, %maxHP sustain.)

Check your damn facts before making claims, for fuck's sake... You said you want discussion, I thought you meant honest discussion, not alternative facts.

Iota ThetaOct 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

the only way it can be useful, is if you can actually kill them or scare them away in that 2 seconds.

What? Have you heard about Reactive casting? As in "you see the skill shot in the air, you click the button to not get knocked away"? And BAM, they wasted a cooldown, and they just throwed themselves into your Brittle debuff.

Suuuure. Like Sion? (No, %maxHP shield.) Like Malphite? (No, same as Sion.) Like Amumu? (No, zero defensive steroid, except the measly flat DR on his E passive that's only good against minions.) Like Zac? (No, %maxHP sustain.)

Check your damn facts before making claims, for fuck's sake... You said you want discussion, I thought you meant honest discussion, not alternative facts.

Don’t forget that later in the game his W is on a lower CD than some champs’ CC. Yas might be one of the few who don’t care, so long as he can get more Qs in.

OddOwlOct 17, 20171 votes

Not sure about that "you cannot lane with Ornn" point. I have had enourmous success at around d4 elo by abusing his passive and playing around it. Start corrupting potion, try get your opponent to start pushing slowly, and play passive till you have 450g to buy dorans shield. Hopefully at 3 mins your jungler ganked and you guys might have got a kill or a summoner spell. If that did not happen you still have an item advantage over your opponent, it should be relatively easy to push your advantage with that item. If played right you can then simply build entirely to counter the enemy team, with tank items, and maybe an iceborn gauntlet. Always try to look for tp plays when your opponent doesn't have it. Due to ur passive you will probably not have to use your tp the second time it's up whereas your opponent will. That means that you can get an easy 3 or 4 v 2 botlane and start carrying your teammates early on, keeping in mind you will be doing very little damage but providing tonnes of cc.

Iota ThetaOct 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lw9XyFN7,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-04T21:50:56.189+0000)

aand.. moves at 1/2 speed. in a straight line, uncontrollable. Thats basically like being ahri-charmed. which. is. hard. cc.

he'ccs himself.

That slow is nothing compared to all the CC that he can just shrug off as if nothing, especially when you are also shielded based on max health and also keep dealing damage.

so, you're saying you should be at max range away from team fights, to be effective with ornn's ult.

which.. gee.. is the exact opposite of where a tank should be.

Thanks for PROVING what I said, rather then countering it.

Some of the best uses for Maokai’s ult are at max range. Check, your move.

Iota ThetaOct 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lw9XyFN7,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-04T18:19:22.031+0000)

okay. yes, you gave examples of decent tanks with no sustain. however, all those guys have either Double shield, or DOUBLE CC. or a combinatino of BOTH. look at naut: massive shield, AND actually TRIPLE CC. sej: 2.5 CC, PLUS some kind of special damage debuf. Sion.. again, 2.5x Cc. PLUS shield.

compare this to orn: one shield, but he effectively CC's HIMSELF to use it!! i mean WTF riot. and almost no Cc. I'll give him a .5 for the wall thing, and .5 for the Q slow. THe wall thing is horrible because its a skill shot, AND you need a wall around. without a wall, you cannot use it as CC at all.

so no. in comparison to other REAL tanks out there.. he is NOT a tank. bruiser at best.

EDIT: also.. THAT ULT>. Ughhh. If you want to make it useful, ornn MUST NOT be tank. because you need to stay free of CC for 2-3 seconds to make it count. whereas main tank will be hard CC'd 50% of the time, and DEFINITELY CC'd after he's made his obvious "I just used my ult, so let me hang around and leave me alone until I can REALLY use it..."

You can’t compre entire kits to two of Ornn’s abilties.

Naut: three hard CCs, a slow, and a shield based on, at max, 17% health.

Sejuani: a small hard CC on Q, and then a stun on E and ult, which using E will lock you out of stunning that target again unless you ult them. And what damage debuff?

Sion: Q is either slow or knockup, a slow on E, and a stun on ult that scales with distance travelled. His shield also at max is 12% max hp, which is actually exactly the same as Ornn’s.

Ornn’s kit: a slow on Q, a conditional knockup on E (which you can work around by proper timing after Q). His W slows him slightly, but shields him for 12% max HP and makes him UNSTOPPABLE (see that Yasuo Q or Lee ult? No displacement for you), and applies Brittle*, which is core to him. It counts as a debuff into CC, since it allows his autos to knockback Brittled targets.

His ult, since you left it out and edited back in, is powerful in that it can get a mass knock-up if played right. You make it sound like it’s a mid-fight ult, but it’s designed to be used to start a fight from a distance. It carries a slow on part one along with applying Brittle, and R2 has the knockup and second application of Brittle. Both parts are CC, and can be used without hitting the other.

*Brittle in it’s own right is powerful for a tank, as it reduces the effectiveness of tenacity, so all immobilizing CC is longer against that target. That is huge for a tank, which Ornn is.

He is no Juggernaut, nor is he a bruiser, since his damages are pitiful. If you really want to build him bruiser, build magic pen on him for his W, since that is where Riot funneled all of his damage. But Ornn is a tank, through and through, and one of the best, if not the best, in terms of design balance.

LadyRenlySep 4, 20171 votes

{quoted} and if you want to play Ornn, play him as he's supposed to be played, not in a weird sub-optimal way.

is there even an optimal way to play ornn? he's shit. so do whatever works for you.

DeathBurstSep 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

and if you want to play Ornn, play him as he's supposed to be played, not in a weird sub-optimal way.

is there even an optimal way to play ornn? he's shit. so do whatever works for you.

He's not shit, he's just new. Ivern also had terrible winrates at the beginning, and we all know what happened. As with all major changes, give it a few weeks to settle down, and then we'll talk about whether or not he's shit or he's OP. But you do NOT need to wait a few weeks to see that playing him bruiser is not a good idea. I haven't seen a single argument that was actually convincing in this whole thread.

Quil EvrythingSep 5, 20172 votes

A little datapoint:

just went mid with Ornn. against Yasuo. built mainly cloth armor, and sterak's gage. 3/0/3, S grade.

crzymdscntstSep 4, 20171 votes

I thought item 3748 was a no-brainer on him. HP scaling on W, AD on Q. Maximize your W shield in junction with it's % damage.

Getting to that point where it's most effective though appears to be the trick.

Quil EvrythingSep 4, 20171 votes

yeah early game can be trickyk. Seems like rush jaurim's fist and rush Q, helps. and NOT building tiamat at all, because you'll push wave too much. maybe late game only.

you also really really need mana item so you can spam Q. not sure which one is best. Their suggestion to build catalyst seems like garbage though. early tear into lategame manamune seems kindaokay so far.

crzymdscntstSep 4, 20172 votes

It's more about his lane sustain for Catalyst, it's not bad, but it could be better. He can spare the health for the mana recovery since he can shop from lane for that instant health boost, making him last longer than normal in-lane if he plays smart. Ancient Coin is my current off-build go-to, since he relies on so much mana usage to compete, but that compensates him for his mana and gives him a slight gold-boost he needs to make his items start combo'ing together.

Just fooled around with Sunfire and Titanic Hydra, the waveclears were pretty silly actually.

40+10% of your max health on-hit cone seems like the no brainer here. He has the potential tank-melter built into his W so the damage starts stacking once he lands that Brittle. He definitely feels better as a Juggernaut, since he doesn't need to stack the damage, but needs that tankiness to really keep landing those heavy hits.

LordGeovanniSep 4, 20171 votes

if you can keep him alive do you. Yorick used to build ad and now he has a full tank build because he cant stay alive other wise and his healing is piss poor compared to what he previously had access to.