Riot, are you still working on Warrior?

Dr Poro·Aug 26, 2015·32 votes·2,050 views

A while ago there was a rework on Warrior on the PBE making it deal % of your dmg as a DoT. But it got reverted quickly. I was happy to see that they were working on Warrior because it's a dull enchantment that only gives stats and on top of that, it's currently by far the worst enchantment. Bruiser junglers have almost always been the dominant type of junglers, but right now the only warrior jungler with +50% winrate is Shaco, the annoying **** that everyone who doesn't main Shaco hates.

So rito, are you still working on Warrior to make it more unique and better? If not, could you atleast give it back the 5 AD that you took away before the other 3 jungle items got improved?

45 Comments

Voluug13Aug 26, 20155 votes

Honestly? I think Warrior being weak is pseudo-intentional because then champions like Vi/Lee could be extremely obnoxious with a better Warrior.

Dr PoroAug 26, 201514 votes

So they buff Lee instead.

I GANK LANESAug 27, 20154 votes

just like diana/eve and xin/shyv/kayle and tank junglers are all better with runeglaive/devourer/cinderhulk respectively? makes sense

Voluug13Aug 27, 20151 votes

yeah but the diference is that Warrior is the staple of bruiser generalists ike Lee.

All those you mentioned are specialists with one or other extremely abusable weakness. (except shyvana kill shyvana)

Left Hook LarryAug 27, 20151 votes

Lee has huge abusable weaknesses as well? His late game is terrible and he becomes useless

If he misses his Q his gank is done pre 6

etc.

He's just a really strong early game jungler. Very shitty in this meta

Voluug13Aug 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Savage Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lqkvKa2n,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-27T18:14:27.652+0000)

Lee has huge abusable weaknesses as well? His late game is terrible and he becomes useless

If he misses his Q his gank is done pre 6

etc.

He's just a really strong early game jungler. Very shitty in this meta

There are false myths and this.

Lee DOESNT fall off. He simply doesnt burst people for as much as he does in earlygame if he builds bruiser.

His late game isnt terrible. He either build tank and enjoys great utility and top-notch mobility, or builds glass cannon and becomes an assassin that kills you in one combo. That he doesnt have Vayne/Kog/Yasuo levels of late game doesnt mean its ''terrible''.

And he certainly doesnt become ''useless'', even when behind.

''If he misses his Q his gank is done pre 6''

Yeah, and then nothing happens. He doesnt get punished by his mistakes, neither he loses mana or much time. And his gank isnt ''done'' either, because even without his 0 risk high reward Q he still has better ganks that many dedicated junglers. He has ward hopping and amongst the game's highest MS. He can simply walk in, W them for a slow and have Q ready by the end of the gank.

''He's just a really strong early game jungler. Very shitty in this meta''

Are you serious? Early junglers are always the best. Cinderhulk? Counterjungle the Sej/Amumu or simply get lanes rollin while they are still (slowly) cleaning. Devourer? Get lanes fed while the Devourer farms. Early junglers were/are oppresive for something: they could clear and gank at such speeds that they could win the game before the enemy champion even started ganking.

Please inform yourself before embarrasing yourself.

Left Hook LarryAug 27, 20151 votes

"Lee DOESNT fall off. He simply doesnt burst people for as much as he does in earlygame if he builds bruiser"

Yeah isn't that what FALLING OFF means? He doesn't do the same amount of damage, which is why he's weaker late game.

"His late game isnt terrible. He either build tank and enjoys great utility and top-notch mobility, or builds glass cannon and becomes an assassin that kills you in one combo"

If he goes full tank then he is for the most part useless. Only good thing about him becomes is his kick and not many know how to properly utilize his kick late game. Also when that kick is on CD he is literally almost useless. If he goes full damage then he will get easily focused and 1 shot, which is why you never see any pro/ good lee player do this.

"Yeah, and then nothing happens. He doesnt get punished by his mistakes, neither he loses mana or much time. And his gank isnt ''done'' either, because even without his 0 risk high reward Q he still has better ganks that many dedicated junglers. He has ward hopping and amongst the game's highest MS. He can simply walk in, W them for a slow and have Q ready by the end of the gank."

Showing up to a lane and failing a gank is very bad for a jungler. I'm assuming you're either low elo, or don't play jungle. Here's why this is bad. One it tells the enemy exactly where he is for nothing in return. This gives the other lanes the ability to do whatever they want without fear. Two you are wasting quite a bit of time that you could of used to farm. The more you waste time the higher level the other jungler is.

"Are you serious? Early junglers are always the best. Cinderhulk? Counterjungle the Sej/Amumu or simply get lanes rollin while they are still (slowly) cleaning. Devourer? Get lanes fed while the Devourer farms. Early junglers were/are oppresive for something: they could clear and gank at such speeds that they could win the game before the enemy champion even started ganking."

This is your opinion, not fact. There are Devour junglers such as Shyvana and Xin who are pretty good early and with the Devour they become god tier late. Also you snowballing lanes isn't always guaranteed. As soon as you get to Mid/late champions such as Kayle, Xin, Shyv, etc will all become way more useful than you. Also counterjungling is much harder this season than before. Losing a buff isn't that big of a deal now and warding isn't hard. A good jungler would simply buy a green and pink ward and when they see Lee in their jungle they call over their lanes for a free kill.

"Please inform yourself before embarrasing yourself."

Man you obviously don't play Lee Sin and are probably a low elo player. Stop being cocky when you know nothing

Dr PoroAug 27, 20151 votes

Early junglers are always the best.

Then why are their winrates among the lowest? Talking about soloQ here, which is what Riot claims to be balancing for in the first place (LCS comes in second place they said). Yes, early game junglers will always be dominant in LCS, but the meta in LCS is very different from soloQ meta where you don't group up that early and if you do, it fails more often than not because of lack of communication.

ManwalrusAug 27, 20152 votes

Already obnoxious.

SluicewayAug 26, 20153 votes

On a similar subject, warrior/devourer gives ad jungers at least the illusion of choice, but ap junglers don't get the same luxury: it is either go runeglaive or nothing, so junglers of the Fiddlesticks variety, who runeglaive is useless on because they are better with ap and cdr, are unceremoniously dumped from the pool of viable junglers. If ad has a choice, even if one is better than the other, why are ap junglers only given one?

Atik L YarAug 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

On a similar subject, warrior/devourer gives ad jungers at least the illusion of choice, but ap junglers don't get the same luxury: it is either go runeglaive or nothing, so junglers of the Fiddlesticks variety, who runeglaive is useless on because they are better with ap and cdr are unceremoniously dumped from the pool of viable junglers. If ad has a choice, even if one is better than the other, why are ap junglers only given one?

I've seen Fiddles grab Cinderhulk for the bulk.

He has enough CC that, with a bit of health, he makes a decent off-tank.

SluicewayAug 26, 20153 votes

Cinderhulk works on him, but what I am talking about is there is no option for an ap Fiddlesticks since he will spend so much time channeling drain that the sheen will do nothing for him (unless, of course, they made the drain not immobilize him, which may be a good option, now that I think of it, since fear makes the enemy run away from him).

Atik L YarAug 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk works on him, but what I am talking about is there is no option for an ap Fiddlesticks since he will spend so much time channeling drain that the sheen will do nothing for him (unless, of course, they made the drain not immobilize him, which may be a good option, now that I think of it, since fear makes the enemy run away from him).

If he could still move, AA, and such during drain, drain itself would have to see some serious nerfs.

That would be CRAZY powerful.

SluicewayAug 26, 20156 votes

Building on what we were talking about, I don't think Riot goes deep enough when it comes to jungle items (besides lacking an ap/cdr item, an ap version of warrior, in other words). I think they should begin building toward whatever there eventual purpose is. Instead of just hunter's machete for everyone, I think there should be a variety of starting jungle items, somewhat along this line (the numbers are just for show, not actual stat suggestions, though they should have the jungler passive).

Hunter's Machete - 10 ad Hunter's Bow - 10% attack speed Hunter's Tunic - 100 health Hunter's Torch - 10 AP

With these items, Machete would only build into Warrior, Bow into Devourer, Tunic into Cinderhulk, and Torch into Runeglaive, so the jungler gets some early stats in the area he or she is building into.

Atik L YarAug 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Building on what we were talking about, I don't think Riot goes deep enough when it comes to jungle items (besides lacking an ap/cdr item, an ap version of warrior, in other words). I think they should begin building toward whatever there eventual purpose is. Instead of just hunter's machete for everyone, I think there should be a variety of starting jungle items, somewhat along this line (the numbers are just for show, not actual stat suggestions, though they should have the jungler passive).

Hunter's Machete - 10 ad Hunter's Bow - 10% attack speed Hunter's Tunic - 100 health Hunter's Torch - 10 AP

With these items, Machete would only build into Warrior, Bow into Devourer, Tunic into Cinderhulk, and Torch into Runeglaive, so the jungler gets some early stats in the area he or she is building into.

Stonewall had a similiar idea in a video he did a while back;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJnA8VkAsE

But, even if we have other starting items, think the actual enchants should work like boot enchants.

I mean, for example, starting machete as someone who likes AD, and then going into Devour or Runeglaive. Fiddles could go Torch into Cinderhulk, Shyvana could go bow>Cinderhulk or Tunic>Devour, ect.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

SluicewayAug 26, 20154 votes

Stonewall's idea seems better than the one I came up with, both because it streamlines the build paths of jungle items and because it gives each champion type a benefit based on their clear pattern, so champs like Fiddlesticks can clear camps with minimal time wasted on auto attacking, and because it gives build path choices appropriate to the role the player intends to go for while blocking it from other champions, the same way support items have distinct build paths that exclude the others.

RisenDarkKnightAug 27, 20151 votes

Good idea but 10 ap is way too little. For 435 gold you get 20 ap and machete costs 400. The 10 AD is worth 360 gold, 10% attack speed is worth around 380 gold, 100 health is worth about 270 gold, but 10 ap is only worth 215 gold.

Photos of GhostsAug 26, 20151 votes

And then there's Skarner item 3717 item 3716 item 3714 item 3718

IcyPepperAug 27, 20151 votes

but ap junglers don't get the same luxury: it is either go runeglaive or nothing,

Some of them can build devourer, especially if they build magic penetration.

Silents429Aug 27, 20151 votes

Even when Magus existed Fiddlesticks players weren't rushing it and went for other items before upgrading.

It was a matter of improving the AP items for everyone else or just Fiddlesticks.

pripustasAug 26, 20152 votes

Yeah, I stopped building it, and just go Tiamat after upgraded machete. Warrior is weak as.

Dr PoroAug 26, 201510 votes

It's not really weak, you basically get 15 AD for 63 gold after upgrading it from Brutalizer and Brut is a good early game item. The thing is, it just doesn't build into anything. It's garbage lategame as you will still with a glorified starting item compared to RG, cinderhulk and Devourer which are all pretty good to amazing lategame. But as you said, it's actually possible to just skip it and go straight for your main items. That's pretty damn ridiculous.

I GANK LANESAug 27, 20151 votes

yeah even on bruisers like i lee i usually just get the machete then the upgrade for the extra gold for monsters kills then get tiamat, then go back and get cinderhulk if i need it. warrior's just meh compared to all the other enchantments

Chespin2013Aug 26, 20151 votes

They probably reverted because they didn't want another situation like spirit of the elder lizard ezreal or runeglaive ez or top cinderhulk smite is my guess.

Meeks011Aug 26, 20151 votes

Yeah, there is NO reason to keep it late game. Cleaver gives all of the stats plus a ton more. Youmuu's gives most of the stats plus a ton more.

The rest of the items are very interesting and you may want to keep them throughout the whole game. Like Runeglaive gives you mana sustain, Cinderhulk gives you extra bonus health, and Devourer is broken as fuck.

ElegantDogeAug 26, 20151 votes

I don't even build it on Vi anymore.I either go for cinderhulk or even devourer when i'm getting a good early game.Both enchant are completely outshining warrior.

TotalJerkAug 27, 20151 votes

The whole problem with Warrior is also the whole reason it totally fucked the initial season 5 balance. It was designed to be good at something the champions who built it were already good at. It's still an obnoxiously toxic item, but all the other options are just flatout better, now.

Dr PoroAug 27, 20153 votes

Devourer is also good at what farm junglers are good at: Lategame. But devourer is also pretty decent in the early game. The problem with warrior is that it's ONLY good early and completely falls off once people get to their 2nd item sooner than you do.

TotalJerkAug 27, 20151 votes

What I'm saying is that champions like Vi, Lee Sin and Jarvan were already freakishly strong at what they did, and warrior just doubled down on it harder than any of the other 4 enchantments at first. It was a "put some Lee Sin on my champion" Item that synergized well with Lee Sin.

It's like they had an Xzibit Memer on the balance team.

Dr PoroAug 27, 20151 votes

Isn't that exactly the same for sated devourer? You like on hits? Let's put some on hits on your on hits. Or for master yi: You like double hits? Let's put a double hit on your double hit.

SlampieceHawkeAug 27, 20151 votes

I don't build it on Trundle . Sure he has no on hit effects on his kit, but I'm typically going to be building botrk and hydra on him so I get the item 3930 . it's sad and funny because warrior used to be great on him. It still would be if all other jg enchants didn't outshine warrior.

Dr PoroAug 27, 20151 votes

True, Devourer and Cinderhulk are more popular and have a higher success rate on Trundle atm. Also, Warrior is the "suggested item" for Skarner. Have you ever seen a Warrior Skarner???

SlampieceHawkeAug 27, 20151 votes

LOL no. Used to see elder lizard though back in the day!

Jungle Lux GodAug 27, 20151 votes

With Skarner's AD scalings Warrior isn't too bad on Skarner. It just doesn't compete with Cinderhulk.

BIAKabooseAug 27, 20151 votes

So I have to defend Shaco a little bit as a Shaco player, and simply say that if you know what to do vs Shaco he is useless. He's quite literally the worst AD assassin in the game as far as damage goes, he's just obnoxious when you don't know how to play against him, which isn't helped by him having not been truly popular in like 3 years or so since he got the hell nerfed out of him.

Anyway, back to warrior enchant, yes, it is garbage. Sure it is rather cost efficient for early game, and then by late game you sell it. Even as Shaco if I get enough money to do it I sell it for ghostblade late game because it isn't worth the item slot. I'm excited that we may be getting something better SOONtm, but honestly I just want to see devourer finally get nerfed so I don't have to permaban Kayle, Shyvana, Yi, and Xin. I need those band for people who I find obnoxious instead, like Gnar and Annie.

Dr PoroAug 27, 20152 votes

Of course there's counterplay to shaco, but that doesn't mean he isn't annoying to dela with. He's just so hard to kill if they play well. His instant blink + stealth is almost always a free getaway. Even if you oracle or pink ward, you have to guess in which direction he blinked to find him.

And yeah, I would also like to see a small nerf on Devourer. This item is currently making farm junglers just too powerful. Half of the top tier junglers are devourer. The other half is split up between cinderhulk and Runeglaive. With a small devourer nerf and a small Warrior buff, I think jungle would be a well balanced place again.

BIAKabooseAug 27, 20151 votes

I still think the worst thing I've ever heard is that Shaco is good vs Lee... But yeah he is honestly really easy to remove from the game entirely and I love seeing a Shaco on the enemy team because I can tell my team exactly where to ward to shut him down.

Honestly the jungle enchants and various smites together just make it a tricky beast to balance, we all remember release Runeglaive on Ez mid and AP GP right? Not to mention Skirmisher's is basically a pocket exhaust with an added true damage DoT effect that people ran top so they could get Cinderhulk and win basically any lane. Riot would make a poor DM for Dungeons and Dragons, hey have cool ideas but they fail to realise just how far the players will go to abuse the system and get their way.

Jungle Lux GodAug 27, 20151 votes

The problem with Warrior I think is not that it has no unique effects. The problem with Warrior is that the junglers that use it are strong enough that they are fine with having an item that only gives stats and doesn't give unique effects.

It would be cool for Warrior to get something other than stats, but not only is it not necessary, but it also gives the possibility that laners might abuse it because it would have to give a stat only useful in PVP combat. Some champions abused the old jungle items in the lane (most notably Spirit of the Elder Lizard), and this season we've already seen that laners are willing to take smite in order to get the jungle items, where Cinderhulk defined the entire top lane meta and Runeglaive pushed AP Ezreal into a completely broken mid laner.

A unique effect on Warrior would definitely be abused on laners. Looking at the effect that was on PBE, which was just like SotEL's passive, the new Warrior would definitely be abused on laners, without question.

And does Warrior need a unique effect? Cinderhulk was given the immolate aura to help tank jungler's biggest weakness, in which they couldn't keep up with the clears of other champions. Runeglaive was given the sheen passive to help non-meta AP jungler's biggest weakness in the mid game, where they didn't have the mana sustain to clear camps AND impact the map without depriving their mid of blue buff. Warrior junglers don't have those kinds of weaknesses, so there's no passive that would be good because the other item's passives were designed to solve weaknesses of their respective archetypes.

Dr PoroAug 27, 20151 votes

How can you say that they're strong enough when their winrate is so low? Yes, they are really strong early game, but the problem is. So are the other junglers because of their OP jungle items. Warrior junglers don't bring that much more pressure in the early-mid game than the others, but fall off way harder than the others do. Cinderhulk scales with HP, Runeglaive with AP, devourer with internal stacking and on-hit effects. Warrior is just a powerspike early (just like the others, nothing more) but doesn't scale with anything.

Someone suggested to give it a tiamat effect, which would obviously be melee only. That would keep the main abuser (blondie) from this item. I'm sure other posibilities are available, just an example. It does limit ranged junglers from building this, but I think most of them would go devourer anyways.

Jungle Lux GodAug 27, 20151 votes

First off, winrate does not determine a champion's power level. There may be a correlation between winrate and power level, but winrate alone does not determine power level.

What I meant by "strong enough" is that they don't struggle to clear the jungle the way that most other junglers do without their jungle item. Warrior junglers are stronger than other kinds of junglers in the early game by virtue of not needing their jungle item to compete (leaving them capable of impacting the map much earlier than the other kinds of junglers) and not needing to rush their jungle item (the way Cinderhulk and Devourer junglers do) to have an impact.

If you take away the jungle items, AD junglers that would use warrior immediately become dominant again because they don't rely on their jungle item the way other junglers do. Because of this, they are OK with a big stat powerspike on Warrior because they don't need the kind of help tank and AP junglers get on their specific items.

Then you have to consider what kind of passive would be appropriate for the item. Well, what would be appropriate for it? It doesn't need to be a passive designed to be used primarily in the jungle because Warrior junglers don't struggle there. It can't be good for PVE combat because then it would be abused in the lanes the way Cinderhulk and Runeglaive were. It can't be auto attack based because then it would compete too much with Devourer. What kind of passive is appropriate for Warrior?

Dr PoroAug 27, 20151 votes

As said previously, a tiamat passive/active would be good. I think there are few warrior junglers who don't rush tiamat after or even before warrior or who would like to get tiamat if they could afford it, but need to buy defensive afterwards (For example wukong generally goes warrior into BC and then defensive, but toplane wukong goes hydra into BC).

Another possibility would be some kind of scaling with AD. The % dmg on the PBE was an attempt, but was probably being abused by Ezreal. Simply making it 'melee only' would fix that, though. The dullest possibility, but still why not, would just be giving it a +15% bonus AD passive, similar to cinderhulk. This would reduce the early game impact it has while keeping it relevant for a longer duration. The problem is that a lot of Warrior junglers like to go tanky after 2 offensive items and this would mainly improve Rengar and other glass cannon assassins.

Still, I personally like the Tiamat approach the most. It gives AD junglers something they need and want.

Jungle Lux GodAug 27, 20151 votes

Tiamat costs too much to be the component of a jungle item, not to mention that it has too much of an auto-attack focus to set it apart from Devourer.

With the passive that was on PBE, I don't think that it would just be abused by ranged champions. Just about any AD champion would probably abuse this item, considering how many of the previously OP jungle items were abused on laners. When Runeglaive was OP, it was abused by any champion that can use the item, and the same thing will happen to Warrior if it gets that true damage passive that was on PBE, except that passive was even more universally useful than Runeglaive's.

% bonus AD is an idea, but then again it doesn't really solve anything. Most AD junglers that buy Warrior either don't build their Warrior, or build their warrior and, at most, one AD item into full tank. % bonus AD isn't going to mean anything for most AD champions, and the base AD that gets nerfed might have bigger consequences on the champions that get it than the % bonus AD gives.