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Tank Survival Times - Preseason 6 vs. before

ProfDrDeath··8 votes·2,271 views

Warning: Lots of maths ahead

Let's calculated a tank's survival time in the preseason and before and compare them to each other, shall we?

First, we need an ADC, let's say...Tristana.

S5 Tristana: 21/9/0, AD reds, 2 AS + 1 AD quints, Dragon 1 item 3006 item 3072 item 3031 item 3046 item 3035 item 3139 item 2140 (17.3k gold)

AD 476.5 = (103+1.05x(11+280+25+14))x1.06 AS 2.26 = 0.656x(1+0.255+0.09+0.05+0.15+0.8+1.1) (Runes, masteries, items, steroid) Crit Chance 55% 3% flat damage increase, 5% extra to targets under 50% HP

DPS 2024.3 = 2.26x(476.5+476.5x1.5x0.55)x1.03 DPS to under 50%: 2122.6

Preaseason 6 Tristana: 18/12/0, AD reds, 2 AS + 1 AD quints, Dragon 1 item 3006 item 3072 item 3031 item 3046 item 3036 item 3139 item 2140 (18k gold)

AD 417.6 = (98+11+245+30+10)x1.06 AS 2.22 = 0.656x(1+0.255+0.09+0.04+0.20+0.7+1.1) Crit Chance 50% 15% more damage against high HP, 5% extra to targets under 40%

DPS 1865.7 = 2.22x(417.6+417.6x1.5x0.5)x1.15 DPS to under 40% 1959.0

All DPS calculations are assuming that Rapid Fire has an unlimited duration. We don't need exact times to kill, just the comparison between S5 and pre-S6.

On the other side, we have our tank. For the sake of the argument, let's use...Cho'Gath .

S5 Tank Cho'Gath 9/21/0, Armor seals item 3110 item 3047 item 3742 item 3083 item 3075 item 3065 (14.25k gold)

HP 4810.1 = (1934+900+600+400+800+36)x1.03 Armor 398.6 = 88.4+1.1x(9+5+3+90+25+50+100) 10% reduced damage from auto-attacks

Preseason 6 Tank Cho'Gath 0/12/18, Bond of Stone, Armor seals item 3110 item 3047 item 3742 item 3083 item 3075 item 3065 item 2138 (15.2k gold)

HP 5287.4 = (1934+900+600+500+850+300)x1.04 Armor 387.3 = 88.4+1.06x(9+3+90+30+50+100) 10% reduced damage from auto-attacks, 4% damage reduction when alone

Now, let them fight: Tristana attacks Cho'Gath!

Season 5:

Tristana DPS: 2024.3 / 2122.6 x 0.9 = 1821.7 / 1910.3 Tristana ArPen: 35% total, 6% total = 38.9% total

Cho effective Armor: 243.5 Cho EHP: 16524.8

Time till Cho 100%->50%: 4.5 s Time till Cho 50%->0%: 4.3 s ** Total survival time of Cho'Gath: 8.8 sec.**

Preseason 6:

Tristana DPS: 1865.7 / 1959.0 x 0.9 x 0.96 = 1612.0 / 1692.6 Tristana ArPen: 40% bonus, 7% total

Cho effective Armor: 249.0 = 0.93x(88.4+0.6x1.06x(9+3+90+30+50+100)) Cho EHP: 18453.5

Time till Cho 100%->40%: 6.9 s Time till Cho 40%->0%: 4.4 s ** Total survival time of Cho'Gath: 11.3 sec.**

To sum it up: These calculations suggest that, actually, tanks should be better off in this preseason. Our example showed an increase in survival time of 28.4%

15 Comments

Madra3 votes

Wasted time. Use a different ADC. Tristana is weak.

Disulfiram2 votes

But he's right.

You can change the items, the ADC, or the tank, and in all but a few cases the result should be the same.

It looks like RIOT made sure that tanks couldn't actually duel ADCs anymore (thanks to the improved sustain) but at the same time they could survive a bit longer against ADCs in teamfights; in return, this should indirectly buff assassins since now you absolutely need one in order to deal with defended ADCs, or else they'll lifesteal back most of the damage you deal to them.

ChaosThief4 votes

{quoted}

It looks like RIOT made sure that tanks couldn't actually duel ADCs anymore

Rammus ok.

IcyPepper2 votes

It looks like RIOT made sure that tanks couldn't actually duel ADCs anymore

At all?

I understand that sustained damage beats tanks, but sometimes I feel like people don't want tanks dueling at all at any part of the game. Not even against burst.

Disulfiram1 votes

Tanks already have CC and tankyness, if they also had dueling power high enough to burst down and kill full-build ADCs without help then we could just outright remove the assassins from the game...

IcyPepper1 votes

and kill full-build ADCs

I said at any part of the game.

Obviously late-game dueling is dominated by the ADC class :P I would prefer a comment on early to mid game.

RisenDarkKnight3 votes

This would be a great analysis if anyone ever got to 6 items in this patch (i've never seen it happen yet, except on a Draven, and that was because of his passive not because the game went long enough for anyone else to get 6 items).

It is cool to see that tanks have been buffed by these changes (and it makes sense because of the last whisper nerf).

Holyphantom0012 votes

Your calculations all rely on a lower tier marksman and don't go for 100% crit which is a 3 item occurrence now with most ADCS.

These maths were done in a manner to make the changes look less damaging than they are.

PD now gives one of the single largest damage reduction buffs in the game. On an item that gives you AS/Crit and mobility buffs. Realistically that Cho would live longer with Phantom Dancer over that Spirit Visage....

I want you to let that last part really sink in for a while, because it is one of the most blatant examples of poorly designed changes.

BakedLotion2 votes

you're forgetting the amount of healing they have, masteries and how snowbally the meta is, along with global gold all over the place. They'll be outhealing the tanks dmg lmao Tanks will NOT get the amount of armor they need to survive adcs since adcs will have many items with the global gold and because they snowball harder if they get ahead

Sneak Dog2 votes

Main thing here seems to be the Phantom Dancer's identity shift from pure damage item to 'defensive' dueling item.

Replacing Mercurial with Statikk Shiv, ignoring magic damage proc. (This means both builds have two 'defensive' adc items: BT and merc/PD)

348.74 ad (98+11+180+30+10x1.06) 2.45016 as (0.656x(1+0.255+0.09+0.04+0.20+0.7+1.1+0.35)) Crit Chance 80% 15% more damage against high HP, 5% extra to targets under 40%

DPS 2097 = 2097.08949384 = 2.45016x(348.74+329.6x1.5x0.8)x1.15 DPS to under 40% 2202 = 2201.94396853

Compared to

DPS 1865.7 = 2.22x(417.6+417.6x1.5x0.5)x1.15 DPS to under 40% 1959.0

Against the brutal Cho:

Cho EHP: 18453.5 (Unchanged)

(18453.5x0.6)/2097.08949384 = 5.27974606354 5.28s to 40% (18453.5x0.4)/2201.94396853 = 3.35221972289 3.4s from 40% to 0%

8.6s total kill time.

Same lifesteal, instead of having qss active and mr for defense, you have PD passives. You will still deal less damage due to the arpen change, but the dps is actually rather similar now.

It's questionable whether considering PD a defensive item like Mercurial Scimitar is fair, of course.

On top of that, I'd suggest using the Fervor of Battle mastery over Warlord's Bloodlust. (Which I think you're using?) I'm afraid I currently do not have time to calculate it, maybe later.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

I used Warlord's - these calculations were done prior to the hotfix that made Warlord's only work on champions.

I'll do the calculations with Fervor one of these days, agreed. However, it should be mentioned that Fervor is going to get nerfed next patch - it'll only stack on champions now, albeit with a slight increased stack duration.

I am not sure whether I want to consider PD as a true defensive item. It certainly reduces a lot of incoming damage, true, but it also requires you to hit the damage dealer first, making it less useful against long-ranged champions and/or multiple threats.

It will probably be something for which you as an ADC need to decide on a case-by-case basis: Do I need the damage reduction from PD more? Or is there an effect I really need to get rid off, like Deathmark?

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

But I play fighters...

Rundus11 votes

Forgot to bring in Cinderhulk. That was the main reason tanks were great (cinderhulk Shyv/Mundo/Singes/Garen and whatnot top and then tank jg)

Ralanr1 votes

I have yet to feel weak with Sion. Course I use Grasp of the Undying. I used Bond of Stone when I went support (I'm an evil bastard) with him and I had some good survival.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

and now we just need a miracle that makes 6item games happen...

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