A constant problem with Riot's balance: The "Ryze" Pattern

ModCaptainMårvelous··4 votes·1,472 views

So I wanted to make a post about this because I feel like it's a major point of contention with league balance. Now, I don't know everything about League but I've played long enough to see a somewhat consistent and constant pattern: What I like to call the "Ryze" pattern.

#What is the Ryze pattern?

The Ryze pattern refers to nerfing or changing everything about a champion EXCEPT the major points of problem or contention on that champion. In the case of Ryze, he's been a balance nightmare since the early days. Consistently and constantly fluctuating between "garbage tier" and "The mana titan", Ryze is slated (yet again) for another rework. However, two of the key problems with Ryze are likely to remain unaddressed. In this case, his instant point-and-click root as well as his mana scaling which will forever make him a problem.

As an example, his last rework changed his passive, his ult, his Q into a skillshot, but largely left the mana scaling and root untouched. Thus, Ryze eventually got dumpstered because those strong points of his cause Ryze to be a constant fluctuating problem.

#What are some other examples?

Ezreal - Because Riot never wants to change his Q, Ezreal is always going to be a pain in the ass and will always make Riot second-guess adding on-hit items. Iceborn Gauntlet, Runeglaive and (to a lesser extent) Lizard elder to name a few.

Alistar - Nerf his heal, his ult, everything about Alistar except the Q-W that makes him have a mini-Malphite ult on a fraction of the cooldown. There's a reason people are still picking this character in competitive.

Braum - The Wall. Enough said.

Janna - Tweak the heal and mana cost all you want. Having an anti-teamfight-in-a-can is forever going to make Janna a decent pick.

Gragas - Anti-teamfight-in-a-can. Now in ranged flavor.

Ekko - "He's still building tank. Dump all his base damage and increase the ratios to 5.0. Just don't change the kit at all."

Kalista - By far the most egregious example, Riot has touched damn near everything about Kalista's kit yet still refuses to do ANYTHING about her hopping passive. It's almost as if CertainlyT is a giant dreadknight with a greatsword the size of his body that nobody really wants to confront.

#So what can be done about this?

Basically, Riot has to admit they messed up and be willing to touch these "iconic" parts of their kit. An example of this working is the Kassadin riftwalk change to Riftlimp. Yes, at first, it sucked. Kass lost a lot of his mobility. However, by addressing the most powerful and problematic part of his kit, they finally shifted Kass into something healthier than he was before. Is he weak right now? Yes, but now Riot can give him some strength in other areas.

Honestly, I'm really tired of seeing patch notes where the same offenders line up for the same rounds of ticklenerfs that do nothing to combat the problem. Worse yet, when Riot finally DOES touch the problem, they often are so weak from all the other changes that the champ is almost unplayable. Please, Riot, I get that you love these iconic parts of a kit. I get that admitting fault is tough...but when you let a single problem fester for so long, it becomes a tumor that kills the champ when you finally remove it.

11 Comments

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

U wot, Kalista's passive has been hit 3 times at least. They took away the backwards bonus, they reduced the attack speed scaling, they made its travel speed affected by slows. What they refuse to do is remove her unneeded Sentinel.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

They touch it, sure, but they certainly don't do any meaningful changes to it. She's still hopping around, she's still one of (If not the) most mobile ADC and she honestly needs a different passive.

Hethalean2 votes

I completely agree on Ekko. It's almost as if every single ability of his has a CC slapped onto it. 3 slows, and an aoe stun! Utility assassin seems like one of those balance points that is going to be absolutely razor thin between garbage and god. At least that's what I thought originally. Now it just means he builds full tank. :(

LuminosN2 votes

You're basically suggesting that Riot destroys the key parts of a champ and turns them in to another champ,you don't pick Alistar because you want a healer,that's why they nerf his heal if it's too good,there's no point to changing those key features about the champs that makes them picked at all next thing you'll say is to remove Elise's spider form,or Udyr's stance mechanic,or Azir's sand soldiers and so on

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

Notice how I didn't talk about Veigar's stun cage. or Fiddle's fear/Rammus taunt or Viktor's hexcore.

I could go on but it's possible to retain iconic kits and still actually deal with the problems these kits pose. What isn't OK is not meaningfully touching parts of a kit or altering said kit at all despite it still being a problem. You can keep Alistar's headbutt/pulverize combo, but give it a longer cooldown or change the stun duration attached to the knock-up. You can change Ezreal's Q while still keeping great parts of the spell. Etc.

"Iconic" shouldn't be synonymous with "Do not touch ever".

ShinigamiKazuki1 votes

I don't know, I think Ezreals Q should be changed to not apply certain on-hit, rather it should only say it will apply Life steal and Critical Strike, would that be a nerf to him building what people call his essential item; Tear? Yep. Essentially it would remove the ability to use his muramana evolution passive. But that would be best for the game itself.

Most of the Champions that you have named are fine though. That's their kits, and they should be strong and diverse. By picking and selecting a team around that champion or champions creates a dynamic. The game is healthy. It really is.

The only thing unhealthy about it, is how Riot treats the diversity. They nerf things into oblivion instead of finding solutions for them, often, the only reason something even GETS a rework is by it being dumpstered on so badly that people begin their overwhelming complaints that Riot needs to listen.

Right now, tank meta has taken over. They are outputting more damage than a carry and that's because of how cost effective a tank build and stats are vs how ineffective a carry build is. I take longer, as an APC to reach my late game fantasy than a Tank does. By the time I even GET my main item completed they have, more often than not, completed a Sunfire and IBG or some sorta MR item that nukes my damage.

I usually consider it the "Evelynn treatment". They reworked her, then she was a top pick, strong and effective. Then they nerfed her damage to garbage level, and changed her E to deal Physical damage but scales off of AP..

TL;DR Riot nerfs things to oblivion because they don't know how to balance properly without gutting stuff. It's been a trend since it's inception. Sad, really.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

I don't think that's entirely the case anymore. If you notice, Riot's been trying VERY hard lately to do more power shifts than just flat nerfs. The fiora changes, for example, weren't flat nerfs. They buffed small parts of her kit but nerfed larger parts. Should this ALWAYS be the case? Probably not but it's good that they're at least trying to shift from "nothing but nerf" to "tweak levers".

Tenchev1 votes

I think all the champs are somewhat balanced. However, instead of nerfing and reworking some abilities on champs which are played a lot, just buff all other champs. For example why nerf ekko when you can buff Gnar, Irelia, Jayce kalista when you can buff Ashe, Varus, Twitch

I know some champs kits are overloaded (ekko for example) but still nurfing a champ to the ground is never the solution. I believe if Riot buffs the champs with the lowest win ratios and which are less played the game will be more heatlhy than nurfing 1 champ to the ground and letting Mundo top be a monster again (just an example).

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I strongly disagree with a lot of this post.

I mean, I actually agree with the overall idea - you need to recognize the problem directly when nerfing someone, you can't focus on the irrelevant part and hope that making something else weaker will make the problem disappear.

Just that I disagree with the examples.

Ryze: His mana scaling could disappear, but how exactly is mana scaling a huge problem? There are plenty of champions that seem to not have a problem when they scale offensively with armor, health, MR, etc... so why should mana be any different? His root CAN'T disappear. It's too strong right now, his burst pattern is too strong, I agree. Ryze is a sustained damage dealer who can burst a squishy in one combo just like any assassin, THAT'S his problem. An unfed Ryze can root the ADC and 100-0 them while keeping them rooted the whole time = an assassin. However he can also deal good rotations on damage on low cooldown = a sustained damage mage. Sustained damage + assassin burst is NOT balanceable, ESPECIALLY on someone who is tanky too! Don't get rid of the point-and-click root though. There's so much mobility in this game (e.g. Ekko and Kalista that you also mentioned) that having targeted hard CC is really important. There need to be these ways to deal with it. Ryze shouldn't be able to combo multiple roots together though, the combo should be that he roots someone and an ally can land their skillshot CC on the rooted enemy. Perhaps Ryze can combo his root a second time after the allied CC, I'd say that is balanced (and would make him still good in lane since any jungler with CC will allow him to get off 2 roots).

Ezreal: I don't think his on-hit Q is his problem. Sure, it breaks him with certain items, but Ezreal's problem is his safety. He has a flash in his kit on a fraction of the cooldown, on top of a global ultimate that lets him pick kills or just farm a big wave that's going to crash in to a tower. If Ezreal didn't have his blink, he could be balanced around stuff like Runeglaive. Make him like most other ADCs (i.e. longer cooldown and less effective dashing ability) and he'd be in a better spot.

Alistar: His W-Q combo is perfectly fine. There are a plethora of other champions that can do largely the same. It's a 1 second knockup from 650 range. Compare to say, Maokai, who has a targeted 2 second snare from 525 range and can follow up with a knockback. Or pre-rework Taric had a targeted stun that no one seemed to have a problem with (I mean, he was strong and not popular). There's nothing wrong with targeted CC, it's necessary to keep the mobility in this game in check. When the competitive players are all playing super playmaking hyper-mobile champions, targeted CC is going to show up.

Braum: His shield is way less oppressive than Yasuo's windwall. Enough said.

Janna: Her ultimate isn't the problem with her at all. It's the fact that her power is so hidden. Her ultimate is the only part of her kit that actually shows her power at all. The problem with Janna is that even when she's the strongest support out there by a mile, no one outside of the LCS thinks she's insanely strong and banworthy. No one thinks they lost lane or game because Janna was OP outside of challenger. She suffers from everything Riot had commented on Sona about with the auras and stuff. If she's not super strong, no one will play her because her power isn't evident at all and they feel useless. So she has to be strong enough to carry a hefty win rate to convince people to play her. Keep the tornado and shield and ultimate, get rid of Zephyr and give her something that is more of a playmaking ability and she can suddenly be balanced and have VISIBLE power.

Gragas: His ultimate is unique and pretty good as well. Only problem I think there is with it, is that it should show a really clear indicator of where it's going to land for the enemy team. It would probably completely ruin him for competitive (as they'd all have good enough reflexes to flash to the side of it they wanted) but it only seems fair. As a side note, I think Thresh and Blitzcrank hooks should show some sort of immediate indicator as well, it's pretty silly that they can be facing one direction and then immediately cast in a different direction. A champion should not be able to start a skillshot and shoot it in a different direction. Same idea with Xerath and Varus, if you want to let them aim while they charge it fine, but then make the character turn towards where they're aiming.

Ekko: His problem was the compensation. He needed a net nerf, but got a net buff. The most successful tanky top Ekko build still has an abyssal scepter, which gives him enough AP that he doesn't suffer from the base damage reduction because of the scaling buffs. Add in runes and masteries, Ekko wasn't actually nerfed at all. Mid Ekko was just buffed. When I saw the changes I thought they'd do very little if anything. I agree that his kit is outright broken overloaded, but that doesn't mean it can't be balanced without a rework. Tank Ekko should do basically 0 damage. He was made to be a new type of assassin that had better utility and less damage. That's cool and fine, but since it's unique he should be pigeonholed in to that role. The base damage increases on all of his abilities should be greatly reduced (e.g. 40/65/90/115/140 to 40/50/60/70/80) and then give him AP compensation so that it evens out his damage combo at level 9 when he's around the average AP you'd have at level 9, 13 at 13, 16 at 16, and 18 at 18. So e.g. at 100AP / 200AP / 300AP / 400AP.

Kalista: They've actually changed her passive a lot. The problem though? The slow removal of all point-and-click CC. The best solution if they want to continue going this way? Make her more like Kog'maw (i.e. she has to stand still to deal even close to optimal damage), her jumps should drastically slow her attack speed. So sure, she'd still be just as hard to hit with skillshots or chase with a tank, but she also can't do nearly as much damage to you in the process. If she's fighting the enemy ADC in mid-late game she needs to stand still or she'll be simply outdamaged. So in a teamfight she does way less damage than the enemy adc since she has so much safety. I think it would also help clarity a lot if they put an indicator on how much damage her rend stacks would do to you. Too many ADCs just die to Kalista in lane because they feel like they can survive her rend and they can't. E.g. They had heal and didn't think they needed it and she gets rend off right before they kill her and they die. E.g. They could have ran away earlier and underestimated her damage. Her rend stacking mechanism hides a lot of her power - pro players rending too early on Baron really show that even people who play a lot of kalista don't have a good idea of how much damage it will do. Make it clear to people how much damage she has stacked is a good step towards making her balanced.

Unique champion traits can be annoying, but they also bring more diversity to the game. Some people like this. As long as it's balanced appropriately, it should be fine. I think a lot of this stuff can be balanced as well - it just takes more work than normal.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

That's alright if you disagree with some of my examples. Lemme try to explain why these guys are more problematic.

Ryze

Most of the problem with Ryze is that, while other characters have some decent armor/MR scaling, he scales with mana to a stronger degree than any of those characters. It also doesn't help that the best mana items in the game also happen to be primarily tank items or heavily tanky items. (IBG, FH, RoA and the upcoming hextech gear). It USED to be a lot worse but Ryze is one of those cases where you can't make many new AP/Mana items without making Ryze kinda redic.

Ezreal

I think Q is the problem because it feeds back into other builds and items that make him obscenely good. IBG, Lichbane, we might even see some cheesy Bloodrazor ezreal doing 3% of your life from 1200 units away. Not to mention landing Q's makes all his other spells reduce the cooldown, making an incredibly safe champion even safer.

Alistar

The difference there is that things like root/snare/stun/etc are all effected by tenacity. A knock-up and knockback are both unable to be affected by tenacity. Not to mention Alistar's abilities scale better with CDR so he'll be headbutting and pulvarizing people a bit more often than, say, Malphite ulting or Naut hooking.

Braum

Heavily disagree. Yasuo's wall can be run through and has a longer cooldown. Braum is a moving wall with a far shorter cooldown that can be twice as effective thanks to dashing and such.

Janna

Again, disagree. Massive knock-ups/knockbacks, an amazing shield that doubles as a steroid and a little sparrow that slows. Janna has been the mistress of peeling for years now and only the barest of nerfs have been made to her.

Gragas

Eh. I still think having a teamfight reset on a tank is way too strong and his kit doesn't really justify the power budgeted into that spell.

Ekko

I agree on the compensation but really, "utility assassin" isn't a concept that works. He's always going to have these gimmicky tank builds because of how well he works with being a frontline fighter. It's the same problem Diana has with her weird bruiser-assassin-mage-tank build.

Kalista

Agree there. Still don't think her passive should exist though. It's also worth mentioning that Kalista's changes didn't really alter her hopping. She got changes to her damage. She got changes to her wind-up/attack speed. She has yet to receive major changes to her mobility though. Until they do something about that, she's always going to be a major pick.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Most of the problem with Ryze is that, while other characters have some decent armor/MR scaling, he scales with mana to a stronger degree than any of those characters. It also doesn't help that the best mana items in the game also happen to be primarily tank items or heavily tanky items. (IBG, FH, RoA and the upcoming hextech gear). It USED to be a lot worse but Ryze is one of those cases where you can't make many new AP/Mana items without making Ryze kinda redic.

I think a tanky + sustained damage mage is fine. It's like Vlad and Swain in that sense, except with outright tankiness as opposed to healing. His problem right now is just the combo lockdown that lets him root you 3 or 4 times or something in one combo.

I think Q is the problem because it feeds back into other builds and items that make him obscenely good. IBG, Lichbane, we might even see some cheesy Bloodrazor ezreal doing 3% of your life from 1200 units away. Not to mention landing Q's makes all his other spells reduce the cooldown, making an incredibly safe champion even safer.

I agree that Ezreal's problem is that he's capable of being too strong for how safe he is. I just would rather address his safety directly rather than through his offensive power.

The difference there is that things like root/snare/stun/etc are all effected by tenacity. A knock-up and knockback are both unable to be affected by tenacity. Not to mention Alistar's abilities scale better with CDR so he'll be headbutting and pulvarizing people a bit more often than, say, Malphite ulting or Naut hooking.

My point in the comparison was that Maokai's snare lasts sufficiently longer that even someone who has fully stacked tenacity will be CC'd longer with it (unless there's a Yasuo, but that's Yasuo's problem). Most targets won't have any tenacity, so Maokai is a lot more debilitating. Add in that Maokai will follow their flash whereas Alistar will just miss if they dash it (I've successfully used Quinn's E to dash over an Alistar Headbutt to get his ADC) so I'm just saying I don't think it's such a huge deal. His overall kit is just too strong. Insane tankiness + heal + a grade A CC initiation combo that can be split in to amazing peel? Something needs to give (hint - I think it's the ult or the heal).

Heavily disagree. Yasuo's wall can be run through and has a longer cooldown. Braum is a moving wall with a far shorter cooldown that can be twice as effective thanks to dashing and such.

Depends what you play. As an ADC I'm not running through Yasuo's wall in to the middle of his team. As a Jinx, I hate my ultimate being fully negated by a non-ultimate (whereas I can break Braum's shield with another projectile first). Biggest two things for me:

  • Braum's shield only completely negates the first projectile, it only weakens further ones. Yasuo's wall stops everything, and from all directions.
  • Braum needs to stand there with his shield, Yasuo can set his up and leave. So when we're chasing and Braum uses his shield to protect his team as they arrive at tower, I can switch my priority to busting the tower down (and if Braum just stands between me and tower we can dive him easily). If Yasuo throws his shield up right in front of the tower? He can run away and I can't touch the tower. Yasuo's tower protection is just outright unfair.

Again, disagree. Massive knock-ups/knockbacks, an amazing shield that doubles as a steroid and a little sparrow that slows. Janna has been the mistress of peeling for years now and only the barest of nerfs have been made to her.

Oh, I agree that she's insanely strong. Just that people don't see it or appreciate it enough. Nerf Janna to a 49.9% win rate and she'd disappear from all but the most devoted mains. I think her ultimate is the healthiest part of her kit, in that it's unique and has appreciated power. Her tornado is a close second. Her shield and slow both are too strong with too little appreciation for how strong they are - and until Janna gets some more visible power she'll likely stay this way so that people still play her.

Eh. I still think having a teamfight reset on a tank is way too strong and his kit doesn't really justify the power budgeted into that spell.

Gragas had all but disappeared prior to his latest buffs. Buffing his W to help with the clear was fine as it addressed what Riot recognized as a problem. Why exactly did they revert their prior nerf to the slow on his Q though? That was the very thing that made him disappear from being strongest jungler to weakest. If he was fine when the Q was nerfed, I see no reason why his ultimate is the problem. He's just overtuned right now in my opinion.

I agree on the compensation but really, "utility assassin" isn't a concept that works. He's always going to have these gimmicky tank builds because of how well he works with being a frontline fighter. It's the same problem Diana has with her weird bruiser-assassin-mage-tank build.

And if he's going to have the gimmicky tank builds they should make his damage disappear. That's my point. I don't think anyone would have a problem with Ekko's utility if he did less damage than Janna. I mean, we're not seeing him support yet, right?

Agree there. Still don't think her passive should exist though. It's also worth mentioning that Kalista's changes didn't really alter her hopping. She got changes to her damage. She got changes to her wind-up/attack speed. She has yet to receive major changes to her mobility though. Until they do something about that, she's always going to be a major pick.

A lot of stuff shouldn't exist in this game. Good luck trying to convince Riot to remove it though. I'd say it's more realistic to just nerf her damage while hopping - if she has to choose between safety and damage, she'd be a lot less annoying to play against.

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