Meddler - Can we talk about Health?

The Yetii Rider·Feb 23, 2016·52 votes·2,935 views

This is starting to get ridiculous. Tank Ekko, Tank Rengar, Tank Fizz, Tank Akali, Sterak's on ADCs, etc.

Health as an itemization choice is constantly in a state of imbalance because it works really well on squishy champions when it's good, and then the item gets nerfed and none of its intended users get compensated.

Assassins need high base damage, but when they don't get much from their scaling they are free to just build tanky and live long enough to get multiple rotations off.

Even for its intended users, health comes in large chunks that make it give large power spikes when bought. If I get a kill off of just my base damage in the top lane, I can back and pick up a Giants belt to put much more pressure on the enemy laner to trade more and more or risk me all inning them.

The solution? Let's fix it the same way you fixed health and mana regeneration, by making purchasable health give a % of your current base health. That way it doesn't spike as much early, doesn't scale as hard with multiple health stacking instead of armor/MR, and is balanced to fit intended users while not breaking assassins and marksmen.

And of course if we do this we should give Mordekaiser some better base health.

Thoughts?

79 Comments

Big LincolnFeb 23, 201612 votes

tanks with low base health are gonna do what then??

Critmaster GarenFeb 23, 201617 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lijAEKvf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-23T19:10:04.675+0000)

tanks with low base health are gonna do what then??

they need to get compensated. a change like this needs to be followed by a large rework. probably on the level that only preseason changes allow.

but i have to agree. more items should scale off champions base stats. it makes it easier to balance individual champions over champion groups who buy the same items.

graves op with steraks? nerf his base damage and his base health scaling. much less collateral damage.

WiegrafOfValorFeb 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lijAEKvf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-23T19:10:04.675+0000)

tanks with low base health are gonna do what then??

Simple, item shouldn't give just % max health but a combination of both.

Example:

WARMOG: from 850 HP to 400 HP + 25% MAX HP
TITANIC HYDRA: from 450 HP to 200 HP + 15% BONUS HP
SPIRIT VISAGE: from 500 HP to 200 HP + 20% **BASE **HP

If your tank doesn't have base HP, just build items that gives % MAX HP and % BONUS HP, avoid % BASE HP...

CherysseFeb 23, 20166 votes

Oh? you don't like to see ADC's and midlaners sacrifice damage for some defensive stats? You do not like your assasins champs not being able to 100-0 a champ that should be squishy? get used to it! you know why? IT IS CALLED COUNTERPLAY. Actually if item 3157 wasn't so expensive I would just build it on Quinn and Sivir.

Big LincolnFeb 23, 201618 votes

yeah, because you should be able to survive burst as a squishy champion not based on any mechanical skill, but because you bought sterak's

"counterplay" rofl

CherysseFeb 23, 20167 votes

It is counterplay, you are buying a survivability item, it is counterplay because you are buying defenses, oh but you mean, you should just kill me because you bought a 100% offensive item? nope.

Big LincolnFeb 23, 201613 votes

because when a squishy champion (should be susceptible to assassins) buys one defensive item (that's not meant for them to begin with) and then becomes immune to assassins even if the assassin should have earned that kill because they made a good pick, they flanked, they caught you out, etc

that's a problem.

CherysseFeb 23, 20164 votes

good pick? you mean 100/0 you always? Well then the ADC made a good pick by buying Sterak's, an item to counter assasins :D It doesn't render you immune, you know what renders you immune item 3157 Kayle , it just means you will have to work your ass harder to get the kill, and that is counterplay, because if you can burst someone down in 0.50 seconds without that person being able to repply, then it is fair for that person to sacrifice damage and get tanky in order to still survive.

JacknifeFeb 23, 201615 votes

You're both missing the point. You're right, if an ADC buys a defensive item it should help them fairly well in not getting insta-gibbed (i.e. item 3102 or item 3143 , even item 3742 ) but at the same time they should be sacrificing something. They're the ADC, arguably the biggest damage threat on the map. If they're giving up damage so they don't die as quick, you should feel that in their attacks. item 3053 barely gives a sacrifice for damage and gives a crap ton of defense, that only gets better the more they're attacked (and being the ADC, of course you're going to get the most abilities aimed your way). It's like Ezreal and his many cases where he took an item that would be balanced/pointless on anyone else and abuse it to where it's nerfed and a horrible item for everyone.

MorganFreemanBotFeb 23, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lijAEKvf,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2016-02-23T19:40:19.832+0000)

because when a squishy champion (should be susceptible to assassins) buys one defensive item (that's not meant for them to begin with) and then becomes immune to assassins even if the assassin should have earned that kill because they made a good pick, they flanked, they caught you out, etc

that's a problem.

AP champions have had item 3157 for years, the absolute king of "lel I dun wan dy nao". A consistent complaint for numerous season is that AD (specifically adc) champions have lacked an item which comes close to providing the same ability to survive.

Enter item 3053 .

The first item to ever be introduced, other than Zhonyas, which provides champions with effective anti-burst. It's not a Zhonya's clone (thank god) in that it will activate even if you're locked down, but it also can't mitigate nearly as much damage as Zhonyas. Trade offs, man.

Steraks is not a problem at all, it's an AD counter-point to zhonyas and a good baseline for what anti burst items should be, but the rest of them (read: item 3812 ) are shit and poorly thought out / implemented. The fact that it's being nerfed is asinine. Doubly so considering it took a good 3+ seasons for Zhonyas to finally get a meaningful nerf and that this will have a rippling effect on roles other than ADC.

Big LincolnFeb 23, 20168 votes

there's a difference though

Zhonya's removes you from the fight entirely; at best, you Zhonya'd in the midst of your team/get to wait for cooldowns to come back up. At the worst, you've only delayed your death or you not being in the fight and able to contribute has let them kill your team.

Sterak's is always compounded with lifesteal on the carries who buy it, so while the shield is up, they're getting their HP back and contributing to the fight. It's also universally useful as a shield+health gain; the Zhonya's active is the same way, granted, but the armor won't prevent their AP from nuking you.

AbyssphereFeb 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

AP champions have had for years, the absolute king of "lel I dun wan dy nao". A consistent complaint for numerous season is that AD (specifically adc) champions have lacked an item which comes close to providing the same ability to survive.

Enter .

The first item to ever be introduced, other than Zhonyas, which provides champions with effective anti-burst. It's not a Zhonya's clone (thank god) in that it will activate even if you're locked down, but it also can't mitigate nearly as much damage as Zhonyas. Trade offs, man.

Steraks is not a problem at all, it's an AD counter-point to zhonyas and a good baseline for what anti burst items should be, but the rest of them (read: ) are shit and poorly thought out / implemented. The fact that it's being nerfed is asinine. Doubly so considering it took a good 3+ seasons for Zhonyas to finally get a meaningful nerf and that this will have a rippling effect on roles other than ADC.

ADCs have never had a Zhonya's equivalent because they get lifesteal. It has always been balanced so that mages were capable of surviving burst but not sustained damage, while ADCs were capable of surviving sustained damage, but not burst. The main way to deal with ADCs has always been blowing them up instantly because if they live long enough for a major damage dealer on the enemy team to die then they'll become very, very difficult to kill due to the massive amount of sustain they get.

If ADCs become unburstable then their main weakness is removed as no type of damage is particularly effective against them. Vlad is terrifying late game because he has so much burst and sustained survivability and his DPS is a fraction of what ADCs put out.

ADCs having an equivalent to Zhonya's isn't OK as long as life steal is a thing.

ProfDrDeathFeb 23, 20162 votes

Interesting that you bring Lifesteal into the discussion.

First of, to preface this, I generally agree with you.

However, purely from a numerical point of view, Lifesteal has not been as strong as it currently is in a long time - since 4.10, to be exact.

Vampiric Sceptre gives 2% Lifesteal and 5 AD more than last season, for only 100 gold more
There are 4 strong items with Lifesteal for ADCs (three with 75 AD , one against health stacking ), with one additional for melees ) and one that should be the ultimate offensive sustain option for working with ALL your damage ( ).

Why is it not used more, then? Could ADCs opting into burst resistance items (and tankier champions into heavy HP) be a symptom that there is currently too much fast damage (aka, burst) in the game?

KillerKellFeb 24, 20161 votes

WHY is he Squishy? Generally because he builds High Damage, so they offset that by lower Resistances and lower HP.

Generally Squishy Targets want to add Damage, as that is generally the Role for the Team they fill.

So if they buy Defensive, it limits their Offensive Ability.

So yeah, your Assassin might not one shot them... but they just took 0 AP to gain that benefit and likely won't 1 Shot you either.

It's called a Trade Off.

CherysseFeb 23, 20162 votes

Then we could say the same thing about item 3156 for AD's, but yeah it was created for it... Oh sad that item 3053 , an item that does almost THE SAME, ended up being used the same way is....

I don't even have to make a point now.

My Waifu VanillaFeb 24, 20162 votes

The other reason Steraks is built more than Maw (on non-assassins) is the fact that there are ZERO "viable" defensive items for squishy ADs that give Armor, so health is the next best mitigation for an AD assassin or physical damage in general. Yeah, Maw is great against AP Assassins, but this isn't season 1 where the only Assassins in the game were AP and most of the big hitters nowadays are Physical Damage based.

Yeah, ADCs CAN build a QSS to kind of deal with Zed, but chances are Zed will still do upwards of 2/3 of your health without the Death Mark which means you are out of the fight regardless.

AstôlfoFeb 23, 20162 votes

Repeat after me, "assassins should not be able to delete the squishy targets they were meant to delete". That is literally your logic. Sterak's is relatively cheap, gives multiple benefits, and also lets you just run away or keep fighting and helping out (depending on whether your team is there/helpful enough) and survive something that should have killed you. By the very nature of it, squishies are disadvantaged against assassins in terms of health because of how assassins burst, and that's how they're supposed to be, lol.

CherysseFeb 23, 20161 votes

Repeat after me "I must learn to DEAL WITH IT"

AstôlfoFeb 23, 20162 votes

A single cheap item should not counter an entire class as well as providing additional benefits to a type of champion that wasn't even meant to build tanky.

CherysseFeb 23, 20161 votes

Just build more damage and stop crying, with the new item 3147 the item 3053 shouldn't be a problem... DEAL WITH IT.

AstôlfoFeb 23, 20161 votes

Except, Duskblade is sorta meant specifically FOR assassins, and is not that good anyways unless you can high-burst AD quickly enough to actually make it worth it. Meanwhile, Sterak's was meant for tanks, not for ADCs/squishies/etc. I fail to see your point. And the only one that seems to be crying is you, who can't accept that assassins are meant to kill off squishies easily in the first place.

CherysseFeb 23, 20161 votes

OH UPS, SORRY, but ITEMS ARE ITEMS, they are not restricted to classes except melee/ranged. THATS ALL, thats why we have weird builds, blue ez, bruisers, counter builds, antimeta AP champs, etc. DEAL WITH IT, not everything is traditional, If you want everything to be square, boring, and dull in terms of builds go play WOW.

I will not expose my point any more, you just should get it, people do not care for whom it was intended X item when we do a bizarre/weird build, we only care for it to work for OUR purposes, therefore if it works for our purposes, then you have to deal with it, unless it is OP, and Sterak es far from being OP, it allows you to survive, thats all.

I had item 3053 on Quinn with some HP items and Zed still killed me, so stop crying, Sterak is ok already, we need things to counter hard bursts, I prefer to survive and at least do something, rather than dying each time 0/100 being useless, thats the science behind building Sterak on squishies...

If you don't understand it then I guess you are one of those persons who only tries something "new" when you see it being played by a Korean, a Streamer, LCS, or anything like it, you dont have your own creative ideas in terms of builds and you won't ever understand that you should just give a f-ck about whom an item was intended for. If it works, it works.

AstôlfoFeb 23, 20167 votes

Except, tank items generally weren't built on squishies because the whole point is for them to be like a glass cannon and do damage, while the tanks and such would soak up damage and the supports would help keep people alive. Not sure why you're crying so much.

"I have no valid points therefore I will tell you to just shut up and get it" ok.

Blue Ez was him abusing items that weren't intended to be used like that in the first place, weird builds are gimmicks in the first place, counter builds help deal with a champ, they don't /usually/ completely nullify the champ, anti-meta is anti-meta.

"we want it to work for us so if you don't like it, deal with it" ok.

Sterak's is not OP as in the sense it's like the assassins or their items that help burst you down, but it is OP in the sense it denies things that legit should not be deniable, especially on squishies whose main weakness is the FACT THEY ARE SQUISHY. Sure, it allows you to survive, but you really shouldn't be surviving if you get caught out by an assassin in the first place, that's literally the whole intended point of an assassin. That's like telling a cook to not cook anymore because you want them to like, do industry or something instead, because you don't like cooks cooking.

Oh okay, I see the salt now. You got killed by Zed when you're a squishy. Wow, what a surprise. Sterak's isn't something like Zhonya's that makes you literally immune, it still has the potential for you to be killed, but if you two are anywhere near on even footing, it makes it ridiculously hard to do so. One single item should not essentially completely negate an entire class of champions for such a cheap price, that also doubles and lets you just keep fighting as long as the shield is up because bursting through it is also stupidly hard, like if I said, the two of you are anywhere near on even grounds. Your argument literally is worthless at this point.

There already are items to counter hard bursts, but given the assassin is literally meant to do just that, completely nullifying it like Sterak's does is stupid. Wow, you prefer to survive? I'm sure most people would. Guess what? Pro tip, don't get caught out by an assassin. If you would actually ward and not just leave your team behind, assassins really can't gank you that easily, because they're generally meant to obliterate single targets. Leaping into a team would be suicide. There is no "science" behind building Sterak's on squishies. It's a "let's make an entire class of champions useless because I dun wanna die" item.

If anything, people like YOU are the one who need to figure out how to ACTUALLY counter the assassins and not just use some bullshit item to completely nullify it. Assassins work by eliminating single targets with high burst, and are generally squishy themselves. Guess what, if you're a squishy, try... I dunno, not being just completely by yourself from mid/late game where you could just, stick with your team and then not die like that?

I find your last paragraph extremely amusing when I barely care for LCS or pro-streams or anything like that. I build items and champions in ways that maximize their efficiency, and occasionally I look through guides for champions I am new to/unfamiliar with so I can get a better grasp of things. Sure, creativity is good. This isn't creativity. I would suggest learning the difference.

"If it works, it works" Except, it's something that SHOULDN'T work, and it works, because it's stupid.

But of course, this post will probably be downvoted to oblivion by you and all the other salty QQers who get upset about losing to assassins as a squishy and are like "omg broken pls nerf" because instead of actually figuring out how to counterplay and get around them, you'd rather just not use your brain at all and demand nerfs instead so you can feel better about yourself.

:^)

CherysseFeb 23, 20161 votes

how can I tell you I give a f about your assasins, yeah, I play them, and yeah I give a f, if I build an item to counter them then you just must try harder to kill me, that was what the assasins did when I built tanky, and that was the whole idea of my build, oh you want to kill me, TRY HARDER.

Sterak doesn't render you invulnerable, Sterak does grant what? 20 AD? and 40 when the shield is active, consider it is "AD"... BASE AD.

I won't explain it to you any more, you think it shouldn't work, but it does, because it allows you to RESIST, thats the idea of the item.

Once again I will just say it, it works, and you shall just deal with it, you know why? because there are too many assasins already! so yeah, Sterak is natural now!, instead of complaining just go kill the enemy AP midlaner that can't build an Sterak because he is AP, but oh yeah you want to roam into botlane to get free kills because you are an assasin, guess what, nope.

Any ways I don't build item 3053 on ADC's just in Quinn because I play her as a bruiser.

AstôlfoFeb 23, 20162 votes

Um, the AD Sterak grants you has literally nothing to do with the survivability. It's the 30% max health shield that lasts for 8 seconds. If you somehow fail to understand that, then I'm done arguing, because it's obvious you don't have the intelligence to actually comprehend this issue. Sure, counterbuilding to make it harder for assassins to kill you is alright, but that's not really your job. That's the tank's job. Your job is to output damage to kill the enemy team's squishies. And counterbuilding doesn't mean automatically nullifying an entire group of champions.

And it's not resisting if it makes you essentially invulnerable to said champions. It's a straight up "fuck you" to them. You really should read what you're saying before you post. And you continuing to pretend you have any authority over what I do amuses me. And Sterak's should never have been something that existed on like every squishy and ADC/burst/DoT champion ever as a staple now.

If anything, people figuring out how to actually deal with assassins and realizing they're not as OP as they seem would be what should have been done. But noooo, people are too lazy and just QQ about dying. So whatever.

:^)

KillerKellFeb 24, 20161 votes

30% Max Health Shield.

Which means you need More Health for it to be More Effective.

Sterrak's on a Squish doesn't get the full benefit, because 30% of say 2,000 HP is only 600 more HP. Still Squishy.

So instead of doing 2,000 Damage to said target to blow them up... find a way to deal 2,600. (Hint: Duskblade.)

AstôlfoFeb 24, 20161 votes

Duskblade was meant specifically for assassins so they could take out targets that had a bit more HP in the first place, not so it could counter Sterak's, which should have never existed or been usable on squishies.

Assassin burst is intended to take out 100% of the target's health, and so they burst and blow their kit or whatever on said target. Suddenly, the target gets a shield of 30% of their health and they just run away in a situation where they have no right to survive, because it's their fault they got caught out in a bad situation making them a perfect target for the assassin.

Assassins should not be required to build an item that's 550 gold more expensive and has a 120 CD on said effect and hope to use it against Sterak's which can always happen pretty much at any time, is extremely cheap, and has only a 45s CD. That's just dumb as all hell.

KillerKellFeb 24, 20161 votes

Sure, you can say ADC's are MEANT to be Class Cannons.

But what if Class Cannon isn't the most effective?

As Players, we look to find the BEST usage of our Champions.

It's like those people that REFUSE to ever take Cleanse or get a QSS, and then cry about CC. Well, there are OPTIONS out there to limit and mitigate CC... but mah damuges!

How much Damage do you deal when Dead? None.

It's why Armor Runes are used on ADC, instead of putting it all into Attack Damage. But... but... but... those Armor Runes weren't MADE for ADC! But they've used them since Day 1.

The idea of a Squish is to find the RIGHT BALANCE of Defensive to stay alive and apply Damages and Offense so that when they hit something it matters. To much in either direction is a bad thing, as either they will be Insta-Dead and add no Damage or simply not have the Damages to add because they went to Defensive in the Build.

Same thing goes for people that get 1-Shot by a Mage and won't build an MR Item, despite there being plenty of MR Items that give AD, or AP, or HP, or Mana, or a nice Passive/Active.

You adapt.

AstôlfoFeb 24, 20161 votes

Armor Runes are used on pretty much every champ because it gives just slight extra sustain in early. That and Sterak's have nothing in common. Sterak's was intended for tanks to make them even tankier, not so that squishies can get a BS "get-out-of-burst-free" card.

Normal counter items, such as just building MR stuff (like Spirit Visage for example on a tank) doesn't suddenly make the mage/AP champion completely useless, it just makes it more difficult for them because then they have to build more AP/MR pen.

Sterak's literally gives them a second life, because the burst that said assassin blew to try and take out 100% of their health now suddenly doesn't work and they get 30% of their max health back. How on earth is that fair? It's not.

Squishies in the past were not able to survive assassin burst, and they never should have been able to. Right now, they can, and only because of an extremely cheap (in both senses of the word) item. That is just bad for the game design and health of how things should work.

For squishies, building defense is an option, but assassins will generally always outburst it, because they're inherently squishy. It's like putting some walls around a glass bottle and expecting a truck to not run straight through the walls. Sure, it will still run them over, just be slightly harder. For tanks, defense is their main defense against said assassins. For squishies, they should be looking to take advantage of weaknesses in the champion and their playstyle itself because that will be much more effective than trying to build some defense which doesn't and shouldn't help much.

KillerKellFeb 24, 20161 votes

Wait... now it's confusing.

People are crying that Sterrak's on a Squishy isn't fair TO Assassins, that they can't Burst anymore.

So Duskblade is mentioned... and you counter that it's 'sorta meant specifically FOR assassins'.

Well... yeah... that was the point. It should relatively give Assassins the edge against some one with Sterrak's.

The issue with Duskblade is that Non-Assassins can also use it. Not as effectively, mind you... but even ADCs can get good bang out of it. The AD on that thing is fairly high before you even get to the Passive. That, however, is a completely different point.

As far as "Assassins can't Burst on Sterrak's", Duskblade was designed JUST for that purpose.

AstôlfoFeb 24, 20161 votes

Duskblade was made specifically for assassins in general, and no, it was not meant to counter Sterak's, or at least it shouldn't, because squishies should not be allowed to use Sterak's in the first place. Sterak's was meant for tanks, it was never meant for squishies. Sterak's should be changed to be limited to tanks, and if necessary, Duskblade should be changed to be limited to assassins.

Shac NorrisFeb 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Oh? you don't like to see ADC's and midlaners sacrifice damage for some defensive stats? You do not like your assasins champs not being able to 100-0 a champ that should be squishy? get used to it! you know why? IT IS CALLED COUNTERPLAY. Actually if wasn't so expensive I would just build it on Quinn and Sivir.

Have you even played a game this past month? All you see is Master Yi and Graves 1 shotting everything, and being invincible because they're tanky AF

CherysseFeb 25, 20161 votes

I have been there, and it is due to their kits:

Graves is able to dodge most skillshots due to his E and because of it he is able to stack resistances while building tanky, his damage scales so quickly due to the low range to the point where it feels ridiculous, add that to the fact he will do a lot better on top or JG and we have the disaster we are seeing here . An option would simply be ro reduce his base damage and increase a bit his ratios or to reduce his E tankyness, anyways his pattern is not the one of an ADC, he is unfair against melee champs due to the AoE AA's and the way they interact with life steal is insane, if you think he can't be more of a d-ck wait until the new Warlord Bloolust comes out. To mess with him you need ranged champs, if you ruin his early he has little to do, but I agree he deals too much damage with almost no items whatsoever, I wish there was a way to fix him, but it would require riot to rework the "identity" they gave him (cough AoE Super Attack cough)
his own passive is like a sated devourer it self which procs sated devourer faster and wich causes sated devourer to proc faster too in a cycle wich is hard to explain but that adds so much damage that it is insane, add being the item that grants the most AD, AS and AP plus a powerful on-hit and wich allows him to scale with tankyness, a powerful on-hit, an AA reset with an empowered active and grantim him synergy with.... everything on his kit?, he is literally like a melee whom doesn't loose %AD for his on-hit AS steroid, his damage is insane and there is no doubt about why he does no longer build crit. The only way to fix master Yi so that he becomes more healthy is to change his passive and cause it not to be a double-hit but to proc a critical and to tune down Rageblade and increase it's cost, because as long as he haves this crazy passive+sated synergy that scales to PI we won't be seeing the light any time soon.

TTVSushiDevourerFeb 23, 20166 votes

Could of sworn Gnar is a tank.

ModmarFeb 23, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rage Thanatos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lijAEKvf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-23T19:31:27.655+0000)

Could of sworn Gnar is a tank.

Gnar is best as tank, people who go full ad just flop horribly.

The Yetii RiderFeb 23, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rage Thanatos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lijAEKvf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-23T19:31:27.655+0000)

Could of sworn Gnar is a tank.

Repetoir specifically stated that Gnar was designed with the expectation that he would build one or two health items and then some damage. His power of building Black Cleaver and then going straight tank has always been unintended.

DorkunedAurasFeb 23, 20166 votes

Correction, Repertoir staed Gnar was intended to build 1 or 2 DAMAGE items and then some health.

OneSmoothDudeFeb 24, 20161 votes

Yeah, and Vi was supposed to be a top laner and Brand is supposed to be a mid laner and Tahm is supposed to be a support and Ekko was supposed to be a burst assassin and Fiora was supposed to build damage items.

Intention doesn't really matter. Sometimes Riot incorrectly predicts how the community uses their champions, and that's not a bad thing. Unless it is a bad thing, in which case they fix it (release Vi was ridiculous in the jungle, Tank Ekko was nerfed, Tahm's been nerfed, etc.).

In Gnar's case, the community found out that Tank Gnar is better because Mega Gnar is what is useful past laning phase. And it's not imbalanced, so they've left him this way.

Titanium70Feb 23, 20163 votes

Well.. that's an interesting idea.. but one I dont support. (Just like I oppose Ranged/Melee only Items)

Directly linking base stats and build paths may be good in terms of balance, but will reduce the build diversity/diversity over all. Ultimately such changes could eliminate all choices and lead to stable builds - with never changing builds the 'build' it selfe becomes negligible a could be removed as well -> #HotS [Ofc this is exaggerated, still I dont like LoL moving into this (boring) direction].

The Yetii RiderFeb 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Well.. that's an interesting idea.. but one I dont support. (Just like I oppose Ranged/Melee only Items)

Directly linking base stats and build paths may be good in terms of balance, but will reduce the build diversity/diversity over all. Ultimately such changes could eliminate all choices and lead to stable builds - with never changing builds the 'build' it selfe becomes negligible a could be removed as well -> #HotS [Ofc this is exaggerated, still I dont like LoL moving into this (boring) direction].

Your point is fair, but don't you agree that there is a problem when an item that works perfectly fine on its intended users (Runeglaive, Skirmishers Sabre, Sterak's, Warmogs) gets nerfed because outside champions are abusing it, thus weakening all the champions whose kits were balanced around it?

SohleksFeb 23, 20162 votes

The world we live in after Bork and LW nerfs.

Making hp items provide +% base hp and retuning every champion is an interesting direction. A very... new direction... would be a tremendous change... would tie up the stats a champion has early game to their power level the entire game... and sometimes base stats are good tuning for a champion's laning phase...

The consequence this would have on Gnar's various forms is interesting :3

Meep ManFeb 23, 20162 votes

Tank Gnar

WOW, thats his normal build.

BârdFeb 24, 20162 votes

Why are you listing Gnar along with Ekko, Rengar, Fizz, and Akali?

It's not weird for him to build tank.

That is what he is supposed to do.

The Yetii RiderFeb 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The True Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lijAEKvf,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2016-02-24T00:53:43.040+0000)

Why are you listing Gnar along with Ekko, Rengar, Fizz, and Akali?

It's not weird for him to build tank.

That is what he is supposed to do.

Starting to wish I hadn't. It's distracting a lot of people from the very sincere point I'm trying to make about health scaling...

DengedenFeb 24, 20162 votes

Thank you for actually making a suggestion instead of just pointing at a perceived problem. Thank you! Obviously it suffers from the problem that carry champions who buy the Doran's items will suffer a weaker early game, health runes might become obsolete on them too and scaling supertanks might become a bit too powerful with %health from items and runes. (But who cares? Theorycrafting!)

Btw tho, sustain is part of this problem too because it effectively offers the same thing as health does (in most cases). Buuuut your idea wouldn't help with that (crud). Sustain has plagued pretty much everyone trying to find balance for quite a while, so there's probably no easy answer.

Personally, I think that %health damage, which is the staple counter to health stacking is often too weak. The only meta champion who currently have it are junglers (underleveled and rarely in lane) and abominations like Kog'maw (pick or ban). For most champs there are better options than BoRK and Liandry's too.

Karma DeifiedFeb 24, 20161 votes

You know what would help counter health?

BUFF Malzahar Zac Varus Vayne item 3151 item 3153 BUFF

Sorry, I just like %HP damage

The Yetii RiderFeb 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Lovely Whisper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lijAEKvf,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2016-02-24T18:32:49.395+0000)

You know what would help counter health?

BUFF BUFF

Sorry, I just like %HP damage

This would punish the champions that are actually supposed to be building tanky to contain those who aren't supposed to build tanky. Not a good solution.

Karma DeifiedFeb 25, 20161 votes

I'm mostly objective unless tank melting is on the table. I'll support any tank melting no matter how imbalanced/unfair/lacking in counterplay

Weasel KenseiFeb 25, 20161 votes

Man that was so pathetic at the end.

"We need better balance, these items are being used wrong, BUFF MORDEKAISER THOUGH!"

Seriously what wast that? You were saying a reasonable well thought out opinion that could be part of a solution to game balance... then randomly a plug for a specific champion... smh.

Im not flaming you here, just trying to help you with your messaging in the future, dont single out a champ you have a picture of on your body pillow in a general balance issue post.

The Yetii RiderFeb 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weasel Kensei,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lijAEKvf,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2016-02-25T18:28:03.669+0000)

Man that was so pathetic at the end.

"We need better balance, these items are being used wrong, BUFF MORDEKAISER THOUGH!"

Seriously what wast that? You were saying a reasonable well thought out opinion that could be part of a solution to game balance... then randomly a plug for a specific champion... smh.

Im not flaming you here, just trying to help you with your messaging in the future, dont single out a champ you have a picture of on your body pillow in a general balance issue post.

I was attempting to summon Malicious Metal to the thread. He's actually had some great ideas since the juggernaut update and I thought perhaps if he had a reason to give this thread more than a cursory glance he would chime in with some useful info and we could get a real dialogue going.

Though of course, Mordekaiser's base health IS too low for a juggernaut, if we change the health scaling to be based on base health. His health was lowered to make him more of a manageable target in a duo lane and to help make him easier to contain in the late game (it was likely an initial method of balancing what was anticipated to be a two level gap due to the power of his original W). Now that this has been toned down, and Mordekaiser is moving back into solo lanes, he does indeed need some of his innate tankiness back (particularly if Riot is encouraging him to build both AD and AP, like they did with the most recent changes).