Riot, you're backing yourself into a corner with this new grasp change

Catastrophic·Dec 10, 2017·90 votes·4,345 views

I'm a GP main, I only sometimes pick grasp, but I'm more than happy with Klepto so I kind of don't have a horse in this race. That being said, the point I'm trying to make is, does riot really want to group all the tanks and all the bruisers who pick grasp and the ones that used to pick fervor into 1 keystone? Do you think it'd be wise to try and balance all those champions with all the issues and interactions that they may create with this 1 single keystone?

It seems like a fool's errand to me. Why not just take one of the precision keystones and just change it to fit bruisers? That way you don't have that many ropes tied in one knot.

84 Comments

Smitty ManjensenDec 11, 201731 votes

If you think outside the box, you would see that there is another keystone, aftershock that is literally made for tanks, so this grasp change was aimed at bruisers and it actually seems like the right direction to help those who need it.

CatastrophicDec 11, 201713 votes

Fair point actually

AFilthyCaitMainDec 11, 201731 votes

But then as op stated, were back to limiting keystone choices like in the last system

HäxelDec 11, 20172 votes

not realy. Most juggernauts could decide if they wanted Grasp or Fervor. This is now like a small fusion. On the other side do tanks who used Grasp before Preseason not loose much. Even if the Added life was kidna nice, more Damage for Tanks si good too. Especialy cause it is cosnistent. You got far more Health in a 1v1 melee fight than ina melee vs range fight. The new Grasp will be the same in lategame teamfight regardless the laningphase. Only thing that that will not solve good are the Fervorusers who from the Begin where good Fervor but not good Grasp Champions. And are nt good Press the attack champs or don't like the Attackspeed of precision either. Like Camille or Renekton for example. But i believe the Graspchanges would help most Champions and only a few will remain with not so optimal choices (same as old Deathfiretouch Champions).

Chembaron YamadaDec 11, 20171 votes

Well explained, I agree 100%. But as someone who enjoys playing Camille, it's kinda sad that she is still left without a fitting keystone.....

They said they want to add more runes in the future, I hope that something will come along for her then.....

HäxelDec 11, 20172 votes

well until than you can try either the subotpimal keystones or something from the inspiration path (unsealed spellbook/glacial augment/kleptomancy). Best keystone atm for her seems to be comet right now, followed by aerie :/

flibitydooDec 11, 20178 votes

the problem is even though aftershock is made for tanks, a lot of them aren't running it since grasp is better fitted on them. Like sion or poppy who are the two cc-centric tanks I play, who after a bunch of games since the new runes came out I've found work way better with grasp because you aren't really using your cc to directly charge at your opponent and then hug them due to their playstyles (unlike other tanks like gragas or leona). Specifically for those two, sion usually will cc you with his Q which often happens at range (or in the laning phase, not at all because of how much counterplay it has) which makes it very difficult to capitalize on the effects of after shock. And poppy wants to hold onto her E for wall pinning for the stun rather than potentially mis-positioning an enemy from her team (and potentially putting herself in a bad spot).

And a lot of tank supports who should be running guardian since it's supposed to be the tank support rune, just use aftershock, again because of how their kits work.

Chembaron YamadaDec 11, 20177 votes

I don't see Guardian as the "tank support rune" and more as the "Warden rune". Just because you are a tank in the support position doesn't mean you utilise Guardian in a good way.

Guardian is aimed at Wardens (protecting tanks ala Braum, Tahm Kench, etc.) and Aftershock is for Vanguards and Catchers (like Blitzcrank, Leona, Nautilus, etc.).

And this is shown in the winrate as well. Wardens have the most success with Guardian.

THE RlVER KlNGDec 11, 20171 votes

you never take guardian on tahm if youre a support you take glacial or phase (grasp if you're ballsy)

typically you're there to eat either your carry or theirs. guardian doesn't give you much in the way of that since they'll be untargetable in situations where you want to hop the fuck out.

i take guardian on stuff like braum and taric and i don't see it on anyone else really, even the other tahm's i see take grasp or aftershock (which is bad and a noob trap, you think it would be good but it really isn't). its the least used resolve keystone.

Chembaron YamadaDec 12, 20171 votes

I'm just looking at data here. Where do you get your data from? I use lolalytics and it shows Guardian as both, Tahm Kench's most used and highest winrate keystone. (51,5% winrate)

Smitty ManjensenDec 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

the problem is even though aftershock is made for tanks, a lot of them aren't running it since grasp is better fitted on them. Like sion or poppy who are the two cc-centric tanks I play, who after a bunch of games since the new runes came out I've found work way better with grasp because you aren't really using your cc to directly charge at your opponent and then hug them due to their playstyles (unlike other tanks like gragas or leona). Specifically for those two, sion usually will cc you with his Q which often happens at range (or in the laning phase, not at all because of how much counterplay it has) which makes it very difficult to capitalize on the effects of after shock. And poppy wants to hold onto her E for wall pinning for the stun rather than potentially mis-positioning an enemy from her team (and potentially putting herself in a bad spot).

And a lot of tank supports who should be running guardian since it's supposed to be the tank support rune, just use aftershock, again because of how their kits work.

There is actually a flaw in your argument. If you're using grasp, that means you're in range to aa, and that means aftershock would be perfect for you, I personally doubt you tested it to the fullest. One thing that some might argue with is the health gain but that will be removed and literally the rune will be unattractive towards pure tanks, aftershock also increases your resistances which as Sion would come very handy as you're supposed to initiate with your ult often too.

Adrian is DaddyDec 11, 20171 votes

Poppy's passive is considered an aa you know <3

TerchioDec 11, 20172 votes

Her passive also doesn't activate Grasp unless you've been in the fray, presumably grabbing farm, which means you have to be saving your autoattack for Grasp most likely. That's a lot of micromanaging for a champion with limited impact against ganks or teamfights.

BoulderoxDec 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Her passive also doesn't activate Grasp unless you've been in the fray, presumably grabbing farm, which means you have to be saving your autoattack for Grasp most likely. That's a lot of micromanaging for a champion with limited impact against ganks or teamfights.

the only thing i have to say is item 3751 damage puts you in combat and starts and sustains the grasp proc, while allowing you to keep the passive AA. It is a pain in the ass to get it to work well, but there is a workaround to get it to work somehow, whether it is worth it is another question.

flibitydooDec 15, 20171 votes

bami's cinder is core on poppy (as is sunfire cape, the waveclear and stats work way too well with her Q waveclear and give her a very nice defensive powerspike thanks to her scaling with W passive and shield passive)

just walking up to the minion wave will charge your passive and staying near by at least once every 4 seconds (and due to the range you can stand like 300 units away from a minion) will keep you with the grasp proc ready for a very long time.

flibitydooDec 15, 20171 votes

the problem with sion is more to do with the timing

aftershock triggers always after a set duration

grasp you can hold onto

if I Q someone as Sion, I can walk up to them and then auto them for grasp while they're stunned (because usually by the time I walk up to them grasp will be ready). However if I Q someone, and then walk up to them, there's a risk that something like creepblock or some other condition that prevents me from hugging them when the damage goes off will occur.

Smitty ManjensenDec 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

the problem with sion is more to do with the timing

aftershock triggers always after a set duration

grasp you can hold onto

if I Q someone as Sion, I can walk up to them and then auto them for grasp while they're stunned (because usually by the time I walk up to them grasp will be ready). However if I Q someone, and then walk up to them, there's a risk that something like creepblock or some other condition that prevents me from hugging them when the damage goes off will occur.

That's why aftershock isn't just the damage, in case you can't damage people, you still get a very significant defense boost beforehand.

CandoodleDec 11, 20171 votes

cries in nunu

[zombie-nunu-tears]

Smitty ManjensenDec 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

cries in nunu

[zombie-nunu-tears]

Yea, he's one of the rare who can't really use any rune in the resolve tree, but that's probably because of his kit, he just needs a vgu overall, for the time being probably comet is the for him.

Chembaron YamadaDec 12, 20171 votes

He is a Warden and Resolve has a keystone dedicated for that subclass: Guardian. Look it up, his winrate with this keystone is above 51%.

No idea why people think he has no keystone he synergizes with.

Faceroll TacticsDec 11, 20173 votes

What about tanks without hard cc like nunu

ResolutionDec 11, 201718 votes

Honestly, I want to see more runes added to fit the champions that barely benefit from any others. Rather than morphing the current ones.

Chembaron YamadaDec 11, 20175 votes

As far as I know, that is the goal in the end. Got stated they want to aim for 4 rune choices in each tier. Might take some time to achieve that, though.

SpecterVonBarenDec 11, 20172 votes

Source?

Chembaron YamadaDec 11, 20172 votes

Found the quote from Meddler.

We'll likely add a moderate number more (around 4 per slot instead of 3 eventually maybe).

kaironenDec 10, 201712 votes

Riot just needs to add like 1 keystone in each rune category (inspiration, resolve, domination, sorcery, precision). It's easier to say than to do but currently almost every fighter feels like they are going press the attack or kleptomancy. This new grasp of the undying change, is going to hurt diversity so much in the runes. Maokai will only be able to run aftershock. Poppy will only be able to run aftershock unless she goes into a weaker split push build (she's like a weaker j4 top in this case). On poppy's case, this change will honestly be an indirect nerf to her since grasp of the undying is her best keystone and she doesn't have a good reliable way to proc aftershock. Her e can proc it no matter what but she usually wants to do a stun with it, in which the rune will not be as good in 1v1s as with other tanks since it's a stun (less impactful armor/mr).

CatastrophicDec 11, 20173 votes

That is a better solution but it is more costly, so assuming Riot doesn't have the resources or time to do that, I'm saying the next best option is reworking an established keystone.

kaironenDec 11, 20172 votes

It might be more costly, but I think reworking grasp is a step in the wrong direction for rune diversity. I think that buffing lethal tempo and fleetwork to be better to use on melees could be better. Phase rush could also get a buff for melees to make it better to use on them. I just think there are so many better keystones to rework than grasp of the undying. Reworking grasp just seems like it is taking a keystone from tanks and making it better on split pushing tanks (j4, trundle, shen, there might be more) while taking it away from mostly pure tanks.

kirovdarussDec 11, 20176 votes

i love this attitude towards the balance of the game. It's not about you or what you like to play or dont like to play against. It's just about the game's balance.

Personally, i think Runes Reforged was a stupid and pointless idea that just replaced season7 masteries with something shiny and new... I honestly think its going to make it even more difficult to better balance the game. I think they shouldda just kept old runes and masteries and made them free. Anyway, gotten over that. It's the game now.

But yeah, this new change is not gonna turn out well

CatastrophicDec 11, 20175 votes

Everyone gets a little to passionate every now and then, but I think this is the best approach to discuss balance, so that both rioters and players can be comfortable discussing it with transparency. Rioters can discuss context of changes, without being susceptible to mindless outrage, and players can freely say "I think X champion is overpowered" without fearing that people will say "You only think that cause you play Y" and vice versa.

SqkergDec 11, 20174 votes

Holy crap why isn’t more of the boards this level-headed?!?

Weasel KenseiDec 11, 20172 votes

Primarily younger people play this game. Mainly young teens... and that also happens to coincide with the people who regularly have the time and/or inclination to visit forums. Young teens (13-15) are not exactly well known for rationality and "level-headed" discourse or behavior. They tend more towards emotional outburst, and hyperbole. They dole out immature behavior because they are in fact immature.

While there are no absolutes, and some 15 y/o can be a reasonable person, and some 20 y/o a trolling assclown. There is a plurality of poor behavior out of childish people in this game that can be attributed to teenagers.

That is why more of the boards cant be level headed.

BlåbæretDec 11, 20174 votes

{quoted}

It seems like a fool's errand to me.

You thought Riot's balance team by now is something other than fools? You're mistaken then, unfortunately.

EDIT: Lmao, getting downvoted by ADC mains and Rito fanboys.

CatastrophicDec 11, 201713 votes

No, you're getting downvoted by people who prefer discussion to rabid insults.

ZT XperimentorDec 11, 20176 votes

Sometimes you gotta slap your friend to make him quit drinking himself to death.

i cant move wtfDec 11, 20174 votes

There's something wrong with this whole conversation. There was never supposed to be "a rune for bruisers" any more than there was supposed to be a "rune for mages" or a "rune for marksmen", etc. Maybe some of the runes are TOO specific to certain roles. The new runes were supposed to give players more interesting choices with how they liked to play their champ... not be mandatory decisions based on the class of champion they picked.

GorantharonDec 11, 20173 votes

Sadly many of these keystones are designed for very specific champion types and if your champion doesn't fit those you have a lot of mediocre choices.

VectrosDec 11, 20171 votes

Except they gave us less choices overall and ironically created a more stale environment, when they were trying to give more choices.

i cant move wtfDec 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Except they gave us less choices overall and ironically created a more stale environment, when they were trying to give more choices.

Honestly I like the direction they're going I just think some of the keystones especially are too class specific and don't alter in any way what a player will already be doing. Is an ADC going to play any differently with Press The Attack or Fleet Footwork? I'd argue not at all. And who's going to take PTA other than marksmen? It's a dead rune for 90% of champions.

VectrosDec 12, 20171 votes

Yeah, I mean I do think some of the new runes are pretty cool...it's just there's so little choice now compared to what we had, which makes certain builds weaker or not viable, and shoehorns everyone into 1 or 2 runes. Take as an example, Garen. My most played champion, I always took crit runes on him and got an Infinity Edge...everyone seems to get confused by this, probably because they forget his E crits. It's a HUGE damage increase and well worth getting.

Anyways, that crit chance is non existent in the new system, which hurts my damage by quite a bit with him. There are some others I've run into, that's just the most prominent one on my mind.

XxDRAGONsAK47xXDec 11, 20172 votes

I used Grasp on Garen to me more tanky.

I don't want damage. I want tank

CatastrophicDec 11, 20171 votes

Hm that is true, some bruisers don't need extra damage from runes, but do need tankiness.

XxDRAGONsAK47xXDec 11, 20171 votes

So like what do I take now? Aftershock is damage, but does that work on Garen? Guardian won't work.

So what do I take?

CatastrophicDec 11, 20171 votes

Glacial augment, OP OP

just kidding I don't know...

XxDRAGONsAK47xXDec 12, 20171 votes

Exactly, there are like 0 tank runes and 8 damage runes

Raid Boss MordeDec 12, 20172 votes

Garen is a juggernaut, he would rather have damage than tanky stats. This keystone looks perfect for juggernauts right now

XxDRAGONsAK47xXDec 12, 20171 votes

No, Garen is a tank.

I would rather have tank on a tank.

Juggernaut's don't get 5000 HP.

DragonSheaDec 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, Garen is a tank.

I would rather have tank on a tank.

Juggernaut's don't get 5000 HP.

Garen is one of the few juggs that do get around 4500 HP.

Raid Boss MordeDec 14, 20171 votes

He's classified as a Juggernaut though. He just gets a lot of HP because of his passive, and he gets resists and damage reduction from his W.

MetalGearTeemoDec 11, 20172 votes

Welcome to the end game of CC nerfs and skill/role homogenization. RIots been designing themselves into a corner for the last 5 seasons, and we're hitting critical mass.