A Little Thought on Talon

Steel Blossom··1 votes·1,485 views

I don't know if Riot understands this or not, but the rework with Talon basically added more counterplay to his kit without giving him any outplay potential in return. Gutting his base movespeed+Duskblade losing its permenant %movespeed+making his E scale with movespeed+there being 2045794328756941567941 different ways to apply slows in this game makes his E pretty unviable if you want to use it to really juke anything, plus it's a one-way trip across the wall, so you still can't do what Zed can do. But now, he can't dodge things with his E either, or line up a good round of AoE, or burst people with any semblance of reliability. Sure, he roams faster, but that's something any champion can do if the player is good at macro. Also, roam potential and being useful after he gets to where he wants to be are at least equally important.

Of course, I'm not saying that Talon isn't doing well at the moment. But what we need to realize is that Talon is currently strong not because he has a good kit; it's because he has a kit that has great synergy with lethality. Right now, lethality is hella bonkers, and how well a champion's kit can abuse this stat takes priority over how strong that champion's kit is overall. When lethality goes back to being sane, however, not all champions who goes supersaiyan with it will fall down. A lot of champions in the lethality circlejerk will still be viable, like Khazix Rengar Jhin , just off the top of my head, but Talon won't be one of them. His kit leaves too many room for outplays, but he himself has very little in-combat maneuverability. Where he used to have the options of dodging things with his E, predicting his opponent's flash and hitting all his damage regardless of what a target did, or just setting up some juicy AoE, he's now stuck hunting down people with less CDs and gold than him. Or, I suppose people with less brain cells who walk up as squishies to let him crit them to hell with his Q. But still, these are huge limitations to his power, so he has to be super duper hyper turbo OP when he does get his way to be more than a superminion. This kind of design isn't just hard to balance, it's not fun to play as or against. I appreciate the effort that Riot has put into the rework, but for the life of me, I really can't see more pros than cons.

32 Comments

Fondling Gems2 votes

I mean it actually added a lot of outplay potential and options from Q being either a short range dash or a built in crit at close range to jumping over walls with E.

Steel Blossom1 votes

His E is too slow to really make any plays. It's basically Cloud Drake on steriods... Edit: I also don't get how getting more damage when you're melee is "outplay potential". Outplay for me means avoiding enemy damage while dealing out your own.

Fondling Gems1 votes

I meant that his Q has outplay potential due to it being a dash but is also rewarding for managing to get super close. That gives options of weighing burst vs getting to your target and it can also be used to dash to minions. It will even get a partial reset and a small heal if it kills the minion. That gives dodging options in lane.

His E is still a powerful tool that can be used to dodge skillshots and close in from different angles.

Steel Blossom1 votes

Again, his Q is short, and interruptible, and is significantly less useful in avoiding damage. His E is slow to the point of being mostly useless in combat, because any focus fire will just oneshot you before the animation finishes playing. In lane, there isn't really going to be anything for you to hop over until you've been jogging with your 335 base movespeed for a few seconds, so that's that. As for closing in from different angles, anyone with mobility spells can just jump over the wall you came over from, and you have to choose between calling it a day or flashing after them. And if they aren't mobile, chances are they just won't be alone for you to catch.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Yes, but you are comparing this to how he was before. Compared to before he can jump walls and has a dash that gets a partial reset and heal if it kills a unit. Also your dash logic is completely flawed because that applies to anyone outside of like Lee, and lee requires both wards and landing a Q to go over a wall then back over it.

Talon has a dash that can go over almost any wall in the game on a 2 second CD with the only limitation being a timer on each section of wall.

Steel Blossom1 votes

Him being able to jump walls does not mean nearly as much when it actually matters, when he needs to be somewhere IMMEDIATELY. Again, cloud drake on steriod. It helps him get around, but is about as useful as Twitch's stealth in-combat.

Also, a few champions who can go over walls and back again :AhriLeblanc Zed . AndKassadin , kind of. And ppl like Akali Diana both follow a target better. Since Talon's Q is so short, the target has to be right next to the wall for him to Q to them. ANY delay after the target crosses the wall, GG. The target not hugging wall enough? GG.

Finally, his Q partially resetting is simply not good enough. When you're diving backline, every frame of you being vulnerable and not attacking your target is a HUGE detriment.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Diana needs to land Q to be able to do it, and Zed's ult doesn't have that much range, so they need to be pretty close to the wall.

I think you are underestimating how useful repositioning is in combat.

Also you yourself said you jump over a wall and they flash to the other side. Ok then, you used a 2 second CD to burn a 5 minute one. Come back in 2 minutes when the wall resets.

Steel Blossom1 votes

Zed ult might not have that much range, but it STILL has more range than Talon's Q. At this point, basically EVERY targeted dash aside from WW Q and Yasuo E are longer than Talon's Q.

Also, Talon's E really isn't reliable enough to use for repositioning in-combat. It's used to get to where you want to be, but you can't really count on it to dodge things like Zed can count on his W or R.

Also, why do I have to come back 2 minutes later? On old Talon, as long as I get my targeted CDs off b4 you flash away, you'll die regardless. Why must I lose that?

Fondling Gems1 votes

This is the situation of them flashing away. Plus you wouldn't have anywhere near as many opportunities as the current Talon has in the first place. Wall hopping is a powerful skill, and very few champions can compare to Talon's ability to wall hop.

MissingKayo2 votes

Talon is extremely strong right now, but it's mostly because of only Lethality being buffed out of its ass. Without it being that broken, he'd be average at best. He still needs to snowball to actually be decent later too.

forist2 votes

You have to understand. Talon's play-pattern changed dramatically after the rework. He's no longer the blink in and delete champion he used to be, he's more of a flank and poke until someone's low enough to execute champion now. Whether that's better or worse is up to the player, although I can assure everyone of one thing: he wasn't broken before the rework and definitely is not broken after the lethality buffs. If you think so, then you have very little knowledge of the champion.

feryvunny2 votes

I wouldn't say Graves, release-rework Rengar, or release Camille OP.

But he's definitely very strong atm. As a Talon main I don't really like this. I don't want Riot blindly nerfing Talon when he doesn't deserve any. Lethality is the issue, not the champ.

forist1 votes

{quoted}

As a Talon main I don't really like this.

It's great that you play the champion, but this sentence right here doesn't validate your own opinions. Too many people on the boards throw this phrase out expecting instant authority on a champion's balance. Until a champion reaches a reliable play-rate coupled with a high win-rate, no one can definitively say that they are too strong atm.

WoonStruck1 votes

Meanwhile Talon's stronger than he's ever been, including release.

Yeah. Sure. Keep telling yourself it added counterplay. Unless you have a dash/blink of some kind, there's less counterplay and he deals more damage, just over a slightly longer period of time.

Steel Blossom2 votes

Name ONE answer Talon has to an Ezreal hopping away after Talon uses his Q. Also, EVERYBODY has a blink or a dash with flash. Like I said, new Talon's only option is to flash after his target. Old Talon could either just W you, or forget about you and AoE your team.

WoonStruck1 votes

Not using Q too early like a doof.

You shouldn't be trying to go in on Ez unless you end up somewhat close to him after a wall-hop.


Its like you trying to claim Irelia has no outplay potential and is loaded with counterplay.

If you look at how they work, there would be VERY similar arguments you'd have to make.

And I promise you Irelia has a lot of outplay potential and little-to-no counterplay.

Steel Blossom1 votes

See, that's the point. Ezreal might have a easier time dealing with Talon now, but Talon has no answer to what Ezreal does. Like I said, he's stuck going for people with less CD than him, whereas old Talon wasn't.

WoonStruck1 votes

The only way you're not ending up near enough to Ezreal to end up on him after R->Ez E->Q after a wall hop EASILY is in either base or the halfway point between red/blue side in any given lane.

Steel Blossom2 votes

You're not getting the point. Old Talon didn't even have to give a fuck about that Ezreal. With a half-decent comp, he could just force a 5v5 and play around his AoE instead of focusing anyone in particular. Also, if you're suggesting dropping down next to Ez with wallhop, then Ezreal can just hop over the wall that you just scaled. What do you do then, flash after him?

WoonStruck1 votes

If Ezreal's that close to the wall, you can just Q directly to him then wall-hop over after he E's...

Talon's Q has longer range, and if you CAN'T Q to Ezreal over the wall, you can still unload your entire combo after you wall-hop before he gets into a postion where he can E over the wall anyway.


Old Talon was also the most binary champion in the game.

Get in E range, mash buttons, watch stuff die, or you die instead.

Almost any change imaginable would make him less binary. That doesn't mean the changes were good enough.

Steel Blossom2 votes

Talon's Q doesn't reset completely on kill. His range is 550, and 550 only, not increased by anything. Also, Irelia is a tanky bruiser with self-heal and built-in tenacity who doesn't blow up nearly as quickly, who also happens to have much higher movespeed from a normal build, and a reliable slow. If her target blinks away, she can just walk after that little bitch as long as her team backs her. Talon, though? Not so much. There's also the fact that Talon has to hit his target with three spells in a short amount of time to access his full kit.

WoonStruck1 votes

You're missing the point entirely. I'm not comparing Irelia to Talon.

There are direct parallels in their all-in patterns, except Talon has more tools available, and generally more MS due to Lethality itemization, contrary to what you stated.

You don't think Talon's W is a reliable slow? Lol.

And Irelia's not walking up to someone any easier than Talon with his Ghostblade and EoN.

You're also act like Q-W-R in any combination ISN'T often far more than enough to easily proc your passive, even against elusive targets, if you get to them in the first place.

Just being able to cast Q on someone basically guarantees proccing passive.

Steel Blossom2 votes

First of all, all lethality items only give OUT OF COMBAT movespeed. Those are worthless the moment you touch anything, or anything touches you. If you're running up and a minion tags you, there goes that "movespeed". I refuse to recognize it as anything more than convenience when rotating around lanes/objectives.

Secondly, Talon's W is as much of a reliable slow as Ekko's W is a reliable stun.

Also, Irelia has more range, and more in-combat speed with a triforce+phage passive. She is also less effected by everything after the initial CC blocked by EoN, assuming that the enemy would be stupid enough to waste precious CD on a spellshield.

QWR may be a decent way to proc your passive, but I can't help but feel that you grossly underestimate the amount of AoE CC in this game.

WoonStruck1 votes

You have OoC MS to get you in a position to reach your target. If you get put in combat before you get to them, you have Ghostblade as well as your R, in Talon's case.


LOL DID YOU JUST COMPARE TALON'S W TO EKKO'S, RATHER THAN HIS Q?

Holy fuck are you biased lol.


Again, not comparing Talon to Irelia. Its about the patterns, which are EXACTLY THE SAME, BUT TALON HAS MORE TOOLS.


assuming that the enemy would be stupid enough to waste precious CD on a spellshield.

Assuming that the enemy has the luxury of waiting out a 10 second spellshield

Most can't waste ANY abilities on a spell-shield without sealing their fate in most cases.


I can't help but feel that you're grossly biased to the point where continuing is pointless. I'm sorry.

Steel Blossom2 votes

Ulting as initiation on Talon feels extremely stupid to me. Never done it, never will. The risk simply doesn't match the reward.

Also, with the 335 base movespeed, popping Youmuu without OoC movespeed is still no match for the speed an Irelia will be getting from the Triforce. The tools Irelia have are higher and more reliable movespeed, innate tenacity, and reliable slow/stun. Talon has higher damage under certain circumstances, but it is not consistent. He can set up more easily than Irelia, but that's kinda negated by the fact that Irelia can just run the enemy team down. Talon can stealth for up to 2.5 seconds, but Irelia is far more durable. I simply don't see how Irelia has less tools than Talon.

Ekko's Q has a slow on its initial hit. Talon's W only does so on its delayed return. I don't feel like I'm that biased to say that Talon's W is about as reliable as Ekko's W.

Also, there are many pure damage spells in this game, that are on fairly affordable cooldowns by mid game. I don't feel like using one of those between 5 people is going to "seal their fate" in most cases. Certainly, the shield is powerful in 1v1s, but that really isn't the point of this. As individual champions, they can just, you know run...

MaeDoSan1 votes

Whats the cd for his q ?

Steel Blossom1 votes

Longer than the amount of time he can stay alive in any 5v5.

MaeDoSan1 votes

How long can he stay invis ?

Steel Blossom1 votes

After he pulls back his R? Not at all.

MaeDoSan1 votes

You just dodged all my questions so fck you and slimy talon mains like you

Steel Blossom1 votes

Wait I thought you said how long can he stay "alive". It's 4 in the morning where I'm at, so sorry about that. But his ult is a 2.5 second invisibility, and his Q is on a 6 second CD at max rank. Even with 45% CDR, he won't actually be able to Q to the target, ult, and then Q again. I mean, it's theoretically possible if you pause between the Q and R, but competent enemies won't leave you alive long enough to proc your passive. Like I said, out of stealth, he doesn't live at all.

Requiemsfire3 votes

Talon pre-rework was much stronger than current Talon even with the buffs to his itemization. He might "hit harder' mathematically but his entire combo is less reliable.

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