so I saw this guy say that Vayne's supposed to be a duelist

Steel Blossom·Sep 21, 2015·68 votes·4,502 views

But I was under the impression that ADCs were supposed to suck at duels and need team peel and be vulnerable when caught out alone?

199 Comments

SEKAISep 21, 201549 votes

Champs within the same role can have slightly different focuses to heed their individual uniqueness. Like scooters and mountain bikes for example.

But Vayne, she is like a car that flies, or a hammer that cuts.

HolyCrapItsMeSep 21, 201534 votes

Like a rifle that shoots through walls. with tracking bullets. that deal true damage.

CubedJusticeSep 21, 20153 votes

If you want, I can show you a crossbow that does exactly that.

Only Play DariusSep 21, 201515 votes

And there you have Vayne's biggest problem.

Cowgirl EdSep 21, 201513 votes

lol in fact i think riot should change vayne to assassin rather than marksman

Steel BlossomSep 21, 201510 votes

And make her auto's melee. That should make her balanced.

OrangesilkSep 21, 201513 votes

But keep the animation, I still want to see her aiming her crossbow and firing only point-blank arrows.

CubedJusticeSep 21, 201517 votes

Most vayne players wouldn't even notice the difference.

WarlockLawSep 21, 20156 votes

In every class of champions there is an outlier that tends to move away from what "the role is supposed to be." Vayne is the adc that is a good duelist, as such her early wave clear and team fight presence are lower than most others.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20152 votes

Vayne has low team fight presence. OK lol.

WarlockLawSep 21, 20153 votes

When compared to other adc's she does. High single target dps and a single target situational stun does not equal strong team fighter. I can't think of an adc with a worse team fight outside of kog

SwapShadowsSep 21, 20155 votes

Every champion that has a role can do something different from the other champions in the same role/class.

Jinx is better at teamfighting while vayne is better at dueling

Shyvana is better at farming while elise is better at ganking

Moulin RougeSep 21, 20155 votes

Vayne and Quinn , who ironically both you use crossbows, are considered "the" adc duelists.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20155 votes

Quinn as a form where she becomes pure melee and Vayne does not. Vayne also has uncounterable dmg, Quinn does not.

Moulin RougeSep 21, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Transient Bliss,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEPpRXep,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-09-21T05:27:04.137+0000)

Quinn as a form where she becomes pure melee and Vayne does not. Vayne also has uncounterable dmg, Quinn does not.

Quinn also has numerous safe guards against melee for 1 vs 1 fights (and when she's hawk form, not many ranged can out maneuver her speed). Hence why she's taken up top far more than Vayne.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20152 votes

But BEING melee means that tanks/bruisers can CC you...and also Quinn's blind is a skillshot. Vayne has no skillshots.

Moulin RougeSep 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Transient Bliss,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEPpRXep,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-21T05:30:49.610+0000)

But BEING melee means that tanks/bruisers can CC you...and also Quinn's blind is a skillshot. Vayne has no skillshots.

can be said against Vayne too.

And no Quinn will march right into melee form against a bruiser. She gets MS and AS just for hitting a vulnerable enemy. She's really effing good at kiting and self peeling melee off her. Tbh, I'm pretty sure the only melee that can actually give her trouble is a well played Irelia.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20152 votes

Her melee form is a part of her kit that she kinda need to do a lot of things right....Vayne doesn't have to do anything in melee range. Vayne is ranged 24/7, and has a VERY reliable knockback. And the disgusting thing is, once Vayne disengages, she can go back in on YOU with her passive.

Moulin RougeSep 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Transient Bliss,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEPpRXep,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-21T05:37:55.129+0000)

Her melee form is a part of her kit that she kinda need to do a lot of things right....Vayne doesn't have to do anything in melee range. Vayne is ranged 24/7, and has a VERY reliable knockback. And the disgusting thing is, once Vayne disengages, she can go back in on YOU with her passive.

Oh gosh, you must not play Quinn.

Her Valor form is for quick assassinations on squishies, low HP targets and escapes ONLEH. You DO NOT engage a bruiser in Valor form unless they are low HP and are running away, that's an easy way to get killed.

Otherwise, you use your ranged form and kite them to death. If they run, then sure go ahead and valor form them to execute them, otherwise just Botrk them and keep attacking with your MS boost.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20152 votes

Lol but you chase as a birdy right? Vayne chases with her MS buff, FROM A RANGE, and can back off if the target turns, and return immediately to chasing the second the target starts to run away again. Her passive combined with her mobility makes everything a to the death lol.

Moulin RougeSep 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Transient Bliss,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEPpRXep,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-21T05:58:24.614+0000)

Lol but you chase as a birdy right? Vayne chases with her MS buff, FROM A RANGE, and can back off if the target turns, and return immediately to chasing the second the target starts to run away again. Her passive combined with her mobility makes everything a to the death lol.

Quinn can chase in ranged form too.

She has a slow (that when used creatively can be a gap closer too) and MS boost, sweetie.

Now, I'm not saying Vayne isn't a good duelist. She's a fantastic duelist but remember, there are two ADC duelists.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20151 votes

Vayne has a huge MS boost when moving toward champions. Quinn doesn't in human form. Vayne's tumble is also a gapcloser.

Moulin RougeSep 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Transient Bliss,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEPpRXep,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-21T06:45:47.507+0000)

Vayne has a huge MS boost when moving toward champions. Quinn doesn't in human form. Vayne's tumble is also a gapcloser.

sigh

I know Quinn isn't popular, but come on man.

Heightened senses: PASSIVE: Attacking a Vulnerable target grant Quinn bonus attack speed and movement speed for 3 seconds.

「 BONUS ATTACK SPEED: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% 」 BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60

Vault: ACTIVE: Quinn dashes to the target enemy, Airborne icon knocking them back a short distance, dealing them physical damage and Slow icon slowing them by 50%, decaying over 2 seconds.

If her passive doesn't get her target, she can always just vault to them and get one.

Mister MackeySep 21, 20151 votes

Really uncounterable? Thats why quinn always win 1v1 vs Vayne? Well the smart quinn's that Q properly.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20153 votes

I said Vayne's dmg is uncounterable. You must be real dumb.

Mister MackeySep 21, 20153 votes

Well isn't that damage done from an AA? So wouldn't a Blind infact be considered a counter to AA? Just saying... But thanks for your insult :3

FiveofswordsSep 21, 20154 votes

a late game adc will beat most champs 1v1. the idea that adc cant duel is a bizarre and common misconception that people have and i dont understand who is feeding them this lie. many times ill be in some game split pushing as caitlyn...and some udyr or somethign will come and try to kill me. its the funniest thing in the world to witness. they run up, hit me once, realize they are gonna lose, flash and try to run away, then i ult...free 300 gold. No dears...when the adc gets some of their core items they do a lot of damage. dont expect an easy 1v1.

Vayne is NOT the singluar exception to this rule. in fact many adc like kog maw will absolutely destroy vayne in late game.

vayne is jsut like all the other adc, however, in the sense that she is vulnerable to burst and cc. whats nice for vayne is that she is somewhat difficult to target. But if you take someone with an easy point click hard cc and burst like say lissadra, vayne has no chance (or any other adc for that matter)

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20151 votes

Name one other ADC that can duel assassins without being super ahead?

FiveofswordsSep 21, 20151 votes

all of them can. the same assasins that will kill vayne will also tend to give other adc problems...rengar specifically is one i can think of. But i cant count how many times some talon or yi tried to 1v1 me as cait or kog maw or mf and ended up just dying. its ridiculous. Honestly i tihnk most of these assasins are used to adc that panic or something and try to run away which is, of course, the dumbest thing you can do as adc when your move speed is lower than the guy attacking you. But i see it a lot anyway. Yes...if you play adc and 'experiement' with not runnign away but jsut shooting the yi or talon or whatever and hoping you do enough damage and have enough lifesteal...guess what?!!? you will be pleasantly surprised

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20155 votes

All assassins give ADCs problems. Again, if you ain't fed an assassin is supposed to oneshot you. Vayne's different. She can confidently engage a Riven, or an Akali, or a Rengar.

FiveofswordsSep 21, 20151 votes

no. rengar will slaughter vayne. akali is difficult. riven is not a great choice to fight adc unless the riven is super fed. caitlyn with equal items as riven will totally destroy riven.

look lots of people...including low level adc...seem to think adc are sitting ducks 1v1 and it makes them play very badly. Then theres the myth that vayne is the only adc that can 1v1. So vayne players believe that and they will actually attack you back when you go for them. but many bronze/silver/gold Caitlyn players will think about how they are supposed to avoid damage in teamfights and think they need to run away. OK its true that you want to position to be safe in teamfights but in 1v1 or 2v2 or whatever you do not need to be such a coward. you really can beat people 1v1. but since they werent fed the confidence that vayne was they dont try. they attempt to escape, often they dont, and they die...and this seems to support the myth in their head that they are bad duelists.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20154 votes

Riven is not a good choice to fight ADC? A normal Riven should be able to oneshot an ADC with the third Q-stun combo. Most ADCs either have to run for it or straight out die, because once they disengage it's hard to catch back up to a Riven, or any melee with mobility tbh. But Vayne has her BS passive that is enhanced by her ult. She goes back in, and when you want to turn on her she can just tumble away...

lB2kGRlc8ySep 21, 20154 votes

That and flinging the no risk poppy charge's out to push them back. Champions who aren't given 3 mobility skills can't even exist with her near, as they'll be hunted down as if Vayne were a hec with homeguard, and their one ability to close the distance is deflected with ease, while Vayne still has a 2 second cooldown dash to use.

NemeBroSep 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

all of them can. the same assasins that will kill vayne will also tend to give other adc problems...rengar specifically is one i can think of. But i cant count how many times some talon or yi tried to 1v1 me as cait or kog maw or mf and ended up just dying. its ridiculous. Honestly i tihnk most of these assasins are used to adc that panic or something and try to run away which is, of course, the dumbest thing you can do as adc when your move speed is lower than the guy attacking you. But i see it a lot anyway. Yes...if you play adc and 'experiement' with not runnign away but jsut shooting the yi or talon or whatever and hoping you do enough damage and have enough lifesteal...guess what?!!? you will be pleasantly surprised

Caitlyn, Kog'maw, and MF can't duel an equally fed Master Yi in the late game, lol. They can't even effectively kite him.

FiveofswordsSep 21, 20151 votes

you dont kite yi lol. you jsut stand and shoot. and yes all of them will kill him this way. kog maw would kill him this way EASILY. even if yi is super fed kog maw should slaughter him

NemeBroSep 21, 20156 votes

{quoted}

you dont kite yi lol. you jsut stand and shoot. and yes all of them will kill him this way. kog maw would kill him this way EASILY. even if yi is super fed kog maw should slaughter him

No, they will not be able to kill a champion with higher base AD, better dueling steroids, better base stats, better health sustain, the ability to avoid your damage with his Q, and sated devourer.

There is literally nothing to support what you're trying to peddle.

FiveofswordsSep 21, 20151 votes

try it man. jsut test it in game. give cait item 3006 item 3031 item 3046 item 3072 item 3035 and item 3053 which is how i generally build her, and give yi whatever. let cait have one e+q combo which is typical after the alpha strike but other than that just shoot with her. no moving. see who wins.

and what...so yi has 111 base ad vs 101 caitlyn, and he has like 200 mroe health at level 18. Dude a lategame cait will regularly crit fro almost all of yis health. 1300 crits are typical. like seriously 2 hits will likely kill yi if he is building glass cannon.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20154 votes

Alpha strike alone should be 1/3~1/2 of Cait's health. And then true dmg and BotRK

Lady HammerlockSep 21, 20152 votes

good point maybe this guy Urgot

NarasimhaSep 21, 20152 votes

Errr... not even Vayne can duel an assassin.

Hell, any assassin worth an ounce of skill never duels. They get in, get the kill in a second, and get out. If they have to have a prolonged fight in the first place, then it's a shitty assassin.

CrettSep 21, 20151 votes

ADC Kog'maw will only beat Vayne if she misses her stun

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20153 votes

She has a stealth....and u can't do anything during the knockback, so it's like a 0.5 sec stun itself, doesn't even need to hit wall

CrettSep 21, 20153 votes

Well, it would knock Kog'maw out of her range if there was no wall, giving him one or two shots of W before she can get back in range assuming her tumble is on cooldown (which it probably isn't)

Liu XiuSep 21, 20154 votes

Twitch can assassinate most champs in 1v1s especially in late game.

disregardableSep 21, 20153 votes

ADCs do different things. Some have a ton of teamfight damage but are vulernable Jinx , some have utility Ashe , some have lots of burst and mobility Graves , some are very safe Caitlyn , and some, yes, are designed to be able to 1v1 people. Vayne's whole thematic is that of an assassin, a night hunter- she hunts down and condemns her pray. She is vulnerable and will die easily in a teamfight, but she can handle single targets by herself.

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20153 votes

But how is her weakness in teamfights when ADCs are supposed to shine in 5v5s with proper peel? Does that mean that Vayne's weakness is bad teammates? And when you say "have a ton of teamfight damage", do you forget that Vayne is a hypercarry and can deal enough damage for her entire team late game?

disregardableSep 21, 20153 votes

Teamfights are where her 550 range really becomes noticeable as a weakness. The only way Vayne will do any teamfight damage is if the team she's against doesn't focus her, which they'd only do if they're bad or too behind to get near her. Either way, it's their fault.

Ace Access Sep 21, 20153 votes

late game adc's can duel almost any champ. some champs can't be duels 1v1

Steel BlossomSep 21, 20154 votes

yeah Vayne's late game: item 3153 item 3046 ....also, late game ADC vs assassin should be ADC either dying or devoting everything to getting away. Vayne is the only one who gets away and then catches back up for the kill. And funny enough, she also kill tanks in similar manners. If she's a good counter to assassins why does she also shred tanks?

DokiDokiTodorokiSep 21, 20152 votes

Now you're just pouring on the mindless QQ. You realize with that build that almost any adc should outdamage her, and since neither of them build any resistances, the advantage from bork is completely useless? The only problem is that she reaches her 2nd item faster because bork is cheaper. If you're just running and not kiting/fighting back, you're gonna die. That's what Vayne was meant to do. ADC vs Assassin means that either your team has shit peel/assassin is super fed, therefore adc dies, or ADC three shots assassins before they can even get in range for their combo. Late game team fights it's usually the 2nd. Vayne, in fact, has to fight the assassins every time because her range is so low. If she's in range to "poke" them, she should probably be dead. She isn't a counter to assassins, she just has self peel. Not every ADC is going to be a Jinx or a Kogmaw. Her raw DPS loses to almost any other adc who has superior range/attack steroids. The items she builds leaves little room for crit unlike most adcs.