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Please realize that 20/19/2 is probably better than 3/1/10

XinZhao2WinNhao··5 votes·1,728 views

A 20/19/2 person is sticking their neck out to fight and make plays to win the game for the team, and at least they are taking risks.

A 3/1/10 person could be a level 6 Karthus who died once in lane, gets mad and wants to leave the game but can't because he doesn't want to be leaverbustered, so he decides to sit in base ulting every 180 seconds, piggybacking assists and occasional kills from those ults, and doing nothing else.

This is an extreme example, but from my experience, I have met 1 player who has 0-1 deaths in a 40+ minute game who actually did a lot by splitpushing and assisting the team. the other players I have played with that have 0-1 deaths in a 40+ minute game were usually: -too scared to engage and end up piggybacking assists after others have already engaged -attempted KSers who fail at their KS attempts -people who don't know when to time how to go into a fight and help

I'm not even talking about assists vs kills here.

Even f it was 20/1/3

I would say that 20/19/3 is probably more active in the game as a whole and more useful.

20/1/3 sounds like a KSer who sits on the sidelines and does nothing, and waits for the last hit to flash in and ult.

39 Comments

ViashinoWizard8 votes

20/19/2 is a KDR of 1.16 3/1/10 is a KDR of 13

Not dying is more important than getting kills. Especially early on.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

20/19/2 is a KDR of 1.16 3/1/10 is a KDR of 6.5

Not dying is more important than getting kills. Especially early on.

Actively contributing is more important than not dying.

The 3/1/10 Karthus I mentioned in the OP is practically AFK. I'd report that for assisting enemy team and intentional AFK.

And it's 13 not 6.5

It's not about getting kills. It's about going into the fray and doing something to contribute rather than piggybacking assists and KSing occasionally for a high KDA and not doing anything.

ViashinoWizard1 votes

The Karthus in your example is a strawman hypothetical. 3/1/10 doesn't mean you're not contributing. For example, while Mr. 20/19/2 has been contributing by fighting all game, 3/1/10 might be a Nasus who spent most of his time farming and split-pushing and now on top of having gotten several towers and Rift Heralds has a bunch of completed items to bring a big contribution to teamfights. The big difference is that the first guy has given 18 more deaths worth of gold to the enemy team than the latter has.

And you're right on the math. My mistake.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

The Karthus in your example is a strawman hypothetical. 3/1/10 doesn't mean you're not contributing. For example, while Mr. 20/19/2 has been contributing by fighting all game, 3/1/10 might be a Nasus who spent most of his time farming and split-pushing and now on top of having gotten several towers and Rift Heralds has a bunch of completed items to bring a big contribution to teamfights. The big difference is that the first guy has given 18 more deaths worth of gold to the enemy team than the latter has.

And you're right on the math. My mistake.

You know how difficult it is to go 3/1/10 in a 40+ minute game (which it will probably be if there's a 20/19 player in the same game).

And you don't think people are gonna gank the Nasus once they see him taking down towers. In bronze maybe not.

But almost anywhere else people will actually do something to stop them and then he won't be 3/1/10 anymore. (also if he's just splitpushing top solo how did he get 10 assists)

here's an example when you don't die a lot and can still lose-> becuase you don't know when to contribute

http://i.imgur.com/mUpVva0.png

(mods, do not delete. I did not name anyone by name and this is not about behavior, this is about game knowledge and lack thereof)

LegacyDAP2 votes

I want to know how that Ashe got 575 CS in 1 game. o.O

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

I want to know how that Ashe got 575 CS in 1 game. o.O

Unskilled enemies who don't creep deny.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

20/19/2 is a KDR of 1.16 3/1/10 is a KDR of 13

Not dying is more important than getting kills. Especially early on.

It's not about kills, even if it was 20/1/3 I would still say the 20/19/2 is probably better.

20/1/3 sounds like a KSer who does nothing but KS.

ViashinoWizard1 votes

Now you're just being delusional.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

Now you're just being delusional.

No, whenever I try to go for a good score and die less I end up being an assist piggybacker or a KSer who shows up only at the end of fights.

I rather be useful and die and make a good play for the team to follow up on than not die and just be a piggybacker or KSer

Beoridas5 votes

20/19 is way too many deaths. sounds like a squishy assassin who is just going ham with no thought. he got a 20 kills for himself but gave 19 to the enemy. 2 assists=meh.

that dude with the 3/1 means hes very efficient and participated in half of that other dude's kills in which wouldnt have been possible otherwise. the KDa speak for itself.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

20/19 is way too many deaths. sounds like a squishy assassin who is just going ham with no thought. he got a 20 kills for himself but gave 19 to the enemy. 2 assists=meh.

that dude with the 3/1 means hes very efficient and participated in half of that other dude's kills in which wouldnt have been possible otherwise. the KDa speak for itself.

Or how about this.

Akali dives in 1v5 because she pinged her team to go in with her and they didn't do anything. So she gets that 1 kill and then dies.

Half of the time, the Xerath sees Akali coming and knows what she's gonna do, and tries to KS her with his Q but only succeeded 3 times, the other 10 resulting in assists.

Or another scenario.

Akali dives in 1v5 because she pinged her team to go in with her and they didn't do anything. So she gets that 1 kill and then dies.

Sometimes, the Xerath sees Akali going in and tries to help, but reacted too slowly because he's not very good at League. He gets a few assists that way, but is unable to really do much besides that because of his slow reaction time.

KDA doesn't say the whole story at all, but a large percentage of the 3/1/10 or similar-scored players (from 40+ minute games) I know usually either the first one or the 2nd one, I have seen 1 real helpful 3/1/10 player who actually took down turrets and actively participated.

{quoted}

I would rather have the guy who plays smarter and only gives up 300 gold to the enemy rather than someone who goes 20/19 and gives the enemy team a MASSIVE advantage in gold. Maybe you haven't been playing for too long, but eventually you got to learn that huge kill counts means absolute jack if you have equally as high deaths.

I'm not even talking about kill count, I'm just syaing its very difficult to go 3/1/10 in a 40+ minute game of equal rankings and still be an actively contributing member. If you're taking turrets and splitpushing, (you probably wouldn't have 10 assists that way but let's say you did), enemys see you solo-taking their turrets they will probably 5 man gank you a few times.

Read the above posts for the rest of my point.

My point is that how many times you kill or get killed isn't the point, it's how much you contribute.

I rather have someone who's taking risks and making plays than a passive teammate who doesn't make much plays.

Beoridas5 votes

ill put it an other way. you CANNOT die 19 times in a game. you will lose. that means the enemy is equally fed so its null.

the point of the game is winning. you cant kill a nexus if you are dead. you cant kill a nexus also if you just kill, and still have time to kill more because you arent taking the objectives. you know what that means? you are blinded by a false dilemma. its not about the 20/19 or the 3/1. its who gets the nexus at the end of the day. Your exemples are also pretty narrow to explain your preference. your mentality is stuck in combat because this is what you value.

I was plat 2 last season. You know what they value there? money, and safe money. You take a risk? you will be punished if it wasnt thought out properly. you dived to kill the support and you died? you will lose your tower,3 waves of farm and your drag/rift. Dying means also you lose a lot of map control and potential picks.

Ill say this in a very polite way: Bronze 5 games has the highest min average. why? cause people just runs around trying to get kills until they have nothing else to do but to kill the nexus. I have 2 friends at that elo: they belong there and they dont know why because their perspective is not even the right one.

If you watch LCS, lemme know if you see someone with 20/19 score while people cheer about how a badass he was. It just doesnt happen. I even remember once being a 10/3 pantheon 150 farm and that i got smashed by the split pushing 0 5, 350 farm fiora.

that situation means few things: we didnt capitalize hard enough on fiora's weaknesses and the 5v4 she created. And that someone who understand what win games, which among them is being alive, will win.

Wolfess3 votes

IMO the 3/1/10 guy played through his laning phase well and got some kills and probably some good assists, he avoided dying as much as possible and then they went on to split push well, maybe a shen player who knows what they're doing or someone else who has a good TP usage.

the 20/19/2 guy sounds like someone who's thirsty and constantly chases or dives, feeding the enemy team 19 kills worth of gold that gives them the ability to fight back more.

TNHA Baritone2 votes

19 Deaths..... o.o

Your explanation makes sense but I feel like a normal game where everyone is there, 3-1-10 is better.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lcEvAcUI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-06T05:32:43.514+0000)

19 Deaths..... o.o

Your explanation makes sense but I feel like a normal game where everyone is there, 3-1-10 is better.

I rather have a 20/19 player who is trying and actively taking risks than a 3/1/10 Karthus who does nothing but ults once every 3 minutes to steal kills or piggyback assists.

Its actually very hard to go 3/1/10 without being a KSer or an assist piggybacker because you're likely to die more than once. Especially if someone on the team is 20/19/2 in the same team then it means it's probably a 50+ minute game, hard to only die once.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

I said in a normal (without afk or troll) game..not your situation

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lcEvAcUI,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-06T05:40:38.447+0000)

I said in a normal (without afk or troll) game..not your situation

I said it's almost impossible to go only 1 death in a game, especially if someone on the team is 21/19 means that it's probably a long enough game like 40+ minutes.

Even if you're not purposely trolling (I exaggerated with the Karthus), but usually someone who goes 3/1/10 is less useful in general in terms of active contribution. They could be so scared of dying they don't actively help teammates when needed, for example.

DepressedAhri6 votes

Or the 21/19 is diving 1v5 and getting lucky and getting a kill or two every time. In this scenario, he's feeding and useless, and can easily be done by the 25 minute mark. Look at both sides of the scenario and quit being a little prick and making counter posts against someone because you're salty and probably the feeder that goes 21/19.

ViashinoWizard2 votes

The thing is that the guy who's 20/19 is also negatively contributing by giving so many kills to the enemy team. Plus contributing to the game doesn't necessarily get a lot of kills or assists. The game is won by taking objectives after all.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is that the guy who's 20/19 is also negatively contributing by giving so many kills to the enemy team. Plus contributing to the game doesn't necessarily get a lot of kills or assists. The game is won by taking objectives after all.

If people see you taking objectives trust me, they will definitely gank you. Unless it's bronze.

I haven't seen a true 3/1/10 player who actually knew when to contribute in a month or 2 of gameplay.

It's usually someone who either backs away too soon or goes in too late and doesn't know when to time a teamfight.

ViashinoWizard2 votes

That's why you practice good warding and map awareness while split pushing.

And I think you're getting a little hung up on the specific numbers. The point of that thread is that trading kills is less helpful than not dying in the first place.

DrCyanide1 votes

{quoted}

I said it's almost impossible to go only 1 death in a game, especially if someone on the team is 21/19 means that it's probably a long enough game like 40+ minutes.

The reason it's almost impossible is because the 21/19 player is feeding like crazy! Yes, it's harder to not die when your ally is assisting the enemy team!

Lets simplify this slightly to a 20/20 player, and assume they get one kill then die. They gave the enemy team 6,000 gold, and depending on who they killed likely earned much less than that. The 3/1 player gave the enemy team, at worst, 600 gold. It's easier to win when your allies don't give the enemy team two completed items!

Dying over and over and over for "big plays" is helping your enemy more than it's helping your team. Nothing says you have to die to contribute either: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2069345973/42592968?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2005560482/42592968?tab=overview

M0b1us2 votes

There are so many things wrong with this train of thought.

20/19/2 doesn't mean that someone is trying to take risk and make plays, it means that they are kill happy. All they really care about is getting the kill no matter what the cost. Also, this also indicates that the player has given a HUGE amount of gold to the enemy team while being the main benefactor. This creates a huge issue of focusing too many kills on a central player. If that player is taken out, then the rest of the team is at a massive disadvantage. There are compositions that even completely revolve around keeping 1 carry alive and safe. This shows nothing except that the player was inexperienced and doesn't understand the idea of not giving the enemy team free advantages. Assuming 300 gold average per death, since the kill/death count is roughly the same, the 20/19 player has given the enemy team about 5700 gold.

3/1/10 is a bit harder to analyze. They might not have contributed as much, but they gave the enemy team only 300 gold. One can make the argument that this player played with more caution and patiently than the other player. This caution might have been the result of a fear of being snowballed against or knowledge that kills alone don't win the game. They help sure, but if a kill can lead to your own or a teammates death then it can backfire.

I would rather have the guy who plays smarter and only gives up 300 gold to the enemy rather than someone who goes 20/19 and gives the enemy team a MASSIVE advantage in gold. Maybe you haven't been playing for too long, but eventually you got to learn that huge kill counts means absolute jack if you have equally as high deaths.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

If you've died 19 times you've fed the enemy team to the point where you will likely be the only one who can do anything against them. I hope you can carry that game because you've completely removed your teammates ability to do anything meaningful due the the relative gold deficit you've put them in.

Volgaria2 votes

You have one photoshopped picture as "proof" of why dying 19 times is doing more. If you get 20 kills and die 19 times you have pretty much shoveled gold to the enemy team, spent a lot of time with a grey screen where you could have been farming / warding / taking objectives or just helping the team.

Malix Farwin2 votes

Okay not to waste to much time and the only thing that really needs to be said. If you go 20/19 or any ludicrous score you have made it so that you are the only one who can do anything to the enemy team while the enemy is fed from you and can steamroll anyone except you but can still take you out. Basically the enemy will focus you then proceed to steamroll your team and win.

Stephenizgod2 votes

Not Dying > (<) Objectives > CS > Kills.

Not dying and Objectives can sometimes switch but overall this is the general order of importance i believe. If you are actually playing and you never die you are denying the enemy Gold and map pressure, this is super important. Objectives are the most important goal, you can win a game with no CS and no Kills if you take all the Objectives first. Objectives are Towers, Inhibitors, Dragon, and Baron. CS is next because this is where your main Gold income is, with Gold you buy items to help you not die and take objectives. Then it is Kills, this also nets you gold and gives you map pressure as well as helps secure objectives. It is important to kill your lane opponent, but like i said earlier, you can win the game with 0 kills and 0 CS as long as you take Objectives. You can also lose a game with 1000 kills and 1000 CS but not take any objectives.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

Not Dying > (<) Objectives > CS > Kills.

By this logic AFK's are the best League players.

But that's not true, becuase kills do matter.

Stephenizgod1 votes

I suppose you just glossed over the part where i said "If you are actually playing"

agbudar1 votes

currently dying more then 3 times means you spell the end of your game 20/19 is very prone to losing 3/1/10 is not prone to losing because the enemy team only ever got 1 kill from him at worst thats 300 g with 4 assists at what? 80 g?

19 deaths.... especially if you keep killing means he handed out over 2000 gold to the enemy team to the person that killed him not to mention all the assist that came from that persons death.

67chrome1 votes

I feel like you're misusing the word "probably".

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

But yeah, this is the perfect example of someone who avoids dying so much that he becomes too scared to actively help or participate, and ends up losing a lot of games because of that.

http://i.imgur.com/mUpVva0.png

(I am not calling anyone out for behavior. I didn't even mention a name, and I'm talking about gameplay skills and knowledge of when to engage and when to trade here, not behavior.)

Lauchmelder1 votes

20/19/2 KDA = 1.15 3/1/10 KDA = 13

It's not always the lower number that's better

Subject 51 votes

I hope the guy with like 19 deaths is on the enemy team, I love free gold 4v5's after we kill his ass.

God of Bagels1 votes

Impossible to know without context. What if they 20-19-2 person deaths where all due to overstaying and overextending? Maybe they got a lot of triple kills in team fights, but then overstayed and got killed every time, then started roaming by themselves and got caught. They would get a kill each time, but they would always get killed. Long story short, they died a lot of unnecessary times that could have easily been prevented. What if they died each time to the enemy Xin? Now you got a fed Xin to deal with because your kill leader has no awareness or IQ.

Valderis Vandala1 votes

20/19/2 is just an asshole who dies for every kill he makes and is never seen in a team fight, he basically makes himself worthless and has nothing to show for it because he feeds his opponent as much or little as himself if not more so. Depending on what champion he and his opponent play this can either be incredibly terrible or every so very slightly maybe a little bit useful, maaaaaybe.

3/1/10 means you kill more then you die and you show up for team fights, this is a good score.

ShaftyMegee1 votes

I've seen three of these posts today?

øHaruø1 votes

20-19. He's getting kills but he's also dying. 3/1/10 is much better.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

I'm not even talking about assists vs kills here.

Even f it was 20/1/3

I would say that 20/19/3 is probably more active in the game as a whole and more useful.

20/1/3 sounds like a KSer who sits on the sidelines and does nothing, and waits for the last hit to flash in and ult.

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