Cho'Gath is overpowered, here's why.

ChickenWrap··4 votes·5,181 views
  1. His passive allows him to never have to leave lane. With the immense health and mana regen, he's an immovable force.
  2. His Q (which isn't that hard to hit) has a 1:1 AP ratio. That's a large AoE knock-up with a 1:1 AP Ratio. That's Veigar's W, except it CC's your opponents.
  3. A 1.5 to 2.5 second cone silence that stretches past minion waves and straight into your enemy, dealing hefty damage and preventing them from being able to fight back, and removing any character that uses abilities from close-quarters teamfights.
  4. His E gives him up to 80 + 30% AP bonus damage to his auto-attacks that pierce his targets. By building AP, Cho'Gath is making his auto-attacks impossibly powerful as well
  5. 1k True damage nuke to his opponents with only a few AP items, because why not?

Also, Rylai's allows his E to slow his opponents as well. Everyone who's hit by it.

What I think should be done to fix it:

Nerf ChOP'Gath's Q AP damage by 30% and W silence by about a second to a second and a half. In fact, it wouldn't be a horrible idea to just make it a slow, honestly. You can't fight back against the Freelo of The Void, especially if he's building AP. There's no counterplay there. Heck, he can W flash and R enemy AP/ADCs and kill them while they try to run away (but they can't flash or cast spells because of that insane silence + silence damage. If he lands that with Rylai's, he'll get a 100% guaranteed Q as well, just burying the nail further into the coffin.

If he lands Q alone, that player is dead, especially in the mid to late game and don't even get me started on how much more powerful Cho becomes when he has a team mate who can engage first and have Cho on follow-up duty or about how amazing he is at being a peeler for his team.

29 Comments

chide da jungler15 votes

All you're doing is listing what his abilities can do.

0/10

ChickenWrap2 votes

[{quoted}](name=chide da jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lWBVZoq8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-21T00:11:48.499+0000)

All you're doing is listing what his abilities can do.

0/10

ITT: People that don't know how to look at a kit and pick out what about the kit makes it too powerful.

I'll give you a hint, it's the things I stated that needed to be changed in specific to balance the kit.

Sightless664 votes

You've listed things that could be a problem if Cho was OP. You haven't persuaded us that he's actually OP. Even with those abilities, he's pretty balanced. He's had all of these exact traits while being relatively weak in the past. Just listing them isn't really persuasive. You have to start by convincing people there is a problem (this would be a lot easier if people were having problems with Cho in their games.)

When you say stuff like "there's no counterplay there" when describing Cho and you make a huge deal out of a Rylai's interaction that people don't even use much, it just comes off like you just hate the champion. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but that is how it looks, and it doesn't help convince us that he's actually got a problem.

Meep Man7 votes

[{quoted}](name=chide da jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lWBVZoq8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-21T00:11:48.499+0000)

All you're doing is listing what his abilities can do.

0/10

I know right, let me try... who to do... AHAH!

Aatrox

  • This guy is manaless and has a revive? What?
  • His Q is a gapcloser that can knock up his foes and deals moderate damage. Its not even a targeted delay either so he can use it to escape.
  • Don't get me started on his W! Man, this guy, this guy. His W makes him unable to leave the lane! I mean, it's not like the enemy can poke him at all since he's melee. Then he can switch it into a damage burst instead! Again, what!?
  • His E, oh man, who thought to put a ranged slow on this guy! Was it CertainlyT? Of course it was wasn't it?
  • Then we can end this by getting to his R. Who ever thought it was good to put an attack speed and attack range steroid on a melee!? AND WITH A NUKE!? OMG NERF!

(Also, to the main post about Veigar's W, Veigar's W has been recognized as a crappy ability. You also can't compare two different champion's abilities without looking at each of their entire kits.)

ChickenWrap1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lWBVZoq8,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-04-21T00:35:05.468+0000)

I know right, let me try... who to do... AHAH!

Aatrox

  • This guy is manaless and has a revive? What?
  • His Q is a gapcloser that can knock up his foes and deals moderate damage. Its not even a targeted delay either so he can use it to escape.
  • Don't get me started on his W! Man, this guy, this guy. His W makes him unable to leave the lane! I mean, it's not like the enemy can poke him at all since he's melee. Then he can switch it into a damage burst instead! Again, what!?
  • His E, oh man, who thought to put a ranged slow on this guy! Was it CertainlyT? Of course it was wasn't it?
  • Then we can end this by getting to his R. Who ever thought it was good to put an attack speed and attack range steroid on a melee!? AND WITH A NUKE!? OMG NERF!

(Also, to the main post about Veigar's W, Veigar's W has been recognized as a crappy ability. You also can't compare two different champion's abilities without looking at each of their entire kits.)

Because reading the entire post that was made is too hard for some people, they'll ignore everything important and focus on the thing they can make fun of instead of having a proper conversation about the topic at hand.

Also Veigar's W is not a crappy ability.

DisasterSola3 votes

{quoted}

Because reading the entire post that was made is too hard for some people, they'll ignore everything important and focus on the thing they can make fun of instead of having a proper conversation about the topic at hand.

Also Veigar's W is not a crappy ability.

You mean.... like you? All youve done is list a champions kit. Anyone can do that.

Nothing youve said makes him OP - youve only stated his numbers. Did you forget that hes melee? Did you forget that creep block is a thing? Did you forget that he has rather small ranges? Without context, anything and everything is broken.

ChickenWrap1 votes

{quoted}

You mean.... like you? All youve done is list a champions kit. Anyone can do that.

Nothing youve said makes him OP - youve only stated his numbers. Did you forget that hes melee? Did you forget that creep block is a thing? Did you forget that he has rather small ranges? Without context, anything and everything is broken.

His spells go through minions and mininos generally don't exist in teamfights.

Being melee doesn't make someone bad, especially with so much CC. Look at all the other very powerful melee CC tanks out there. Cho'Gath is one of the best.

His ranges aren't small.

{quoted}

You've listed things that could be a problem if Cho was OP. You haven't persuaded us that he's actually OP. Even with those abilities, he's pretty balanced. He's had all of these exact traits while being relatively weak in the past. Just listing them isn't really persuasive. You have to start by convincing people there is a problem (this would be a lot easier if people were having problems with Cho in their games.)

When you say stuff like "there's no counterplay there" when describing Cho and you make a huge deal out of a Rylai's interaction that people don't even use much, it just comes off like you just hate the champion. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but that is how it looks, and it doesn't help convince us that he's actually got a problem.

Which are a problem because he is OP*

He's not balanced in the least. There's a reason he's being picked and banned so consistently now too. It just adds fuel to the claim. The problem is how he works as a champion with his Q and W being insanely strong spells and CC tools that singlehandedly win his team fights.

There's no counterplay to lane Cho'Gath. He can't be pushed out because of his passive and his W allows him to harass (not trade, because you can't fight back). If I didn't find Cho so boring, I would abuse him straight to Masters or higher, because that's how powerful he is.

Honestly, I'm not surprised though, since most of G&B is gold/silver, they probably don't ever come into contact with even remotely decent Cho'Gath players, so I understand your hesitance.

DisasterSola5 votes

{quoted}

His spells go through minions and mininos generally don't exist in teamfights.

Being melee doesn't make someone bad, especially with so much CC. Look at all the other very powerful melee CC tanks out there. Cho'Gath is one of the best.

His ranges aren't small.

Which are a problem because he is OP*

He's not balanced in the least. There's a reason he's being picked and banned so consistently now too. It just adds fuel to the claim. The problem is how he works as a champion with his Q and W being insanely strong spells and CC tools that singlehandedly win his team fights.

There's no counterplay to lane Cho'Gath. He can't be pushed out because of his passive and his W allows him to harass (not trade, because you can't fight back). If I didn't find Cho so boring, I would abuse him straight to Masters or higher, because that's how powerful he is.

Honestly, I'm not surprised though, since most of G&B is gold/silver, they probably don't ever come into contact with even remotely decent Cho'Gath players, so I understand your hesitance.

"THIS IS OP BECAUSE I SAY SO"

Okay. Garen. Passive: Holy frag, 2% of MAX HEALTH REGEN per 5 seconds?! are you insane? AND its not interupted by minions?! Dude can lose a fight and hop in the jungle for a minute and come back AT FULL HEALTH!

Q: a 130+0.4 total AD basic attack modifier that WORKS ON TURRETS and gives flat 35% movement speed at all levels?! AND IT SILENCES?! He can just walk up to you and silence you before killing you!

W: IT INCREASES HIS DEFENSE BY 20 FOREVER. Garen has TWO passives! CT must have made him, because TWO PASSIVES is SUPER OP. AND IT CLEANSES. You can CC him and he can be all "lolnope" and cleanse it!!!

R: MAGIC DAMAGE that SCALES FROM HEALTH TOO!!!!!! It deals a stupid 520 base AND 40% MISSING HP!!! He can one-shot tanks at HALF HP with that thing! AND because its MAGIC damage ITS HARDER TO DEFEND AGAINST if the REST OF HIS TEAM IS AD!!!!

Holy frag garen is OP.

ChickenWrap1 votes

{quoted}

"THIS IS OP BECAUSE I SAY SO"

Okay. Garen. Passive: Holy frag, 2% of MAX HEALTH REGEN per 5 seconds?! are you insane? AND its not interupted by minions?! Dude can lose a fight and hop in the jungle for a minute and come back AT FULL HEALTH!

Q: a 130+0.4 total AD basic attack modifier that WORKS ON TURRETS and gives flat 35% movement speed at all levels?! AND IT SILENCES?! He can just walk up to you and silence you before killing you!

W: IT INCREASES HIS DEFENSE BY 20 FOREVER. Garen has TWO passives! CT must have made him, because TWO PASSIVES is SUPER OP. AND IT CLEANSES. You can CC him and he can be all "lolnope" and cleanse it!!!

R: MAGIC DAMAGE that SCALES FROM HEALTH TOO!!!!!! It deals a stupid 520 base AND 40% MISSING HP!!! He can one-shot tanks at HALF HP with that thing! AND because its MAGIC damage ITS HARDER TO DEFEND AGAINST if the REST OF HIS TEAM IS AD!!!!

Holy frag garen is OP.

Your straw man is absolutely pathetic. Please, instead of mocking the post and turning it into something you don't have to talk about, let's discuss this bit here, you know, the entire point of the post in the first place that everyone has been ignoring!

"Nerf Cho'Gath's Q AP damage by 30% and W silence by about a second to a second and a half. In fact, it wouldn't be a horrible idea to just make it a slow, honestly. You can't fight back against Cho at all, especially if he's building AP. There's no counterplay there. He forces his opponents out of lane with his W and they can't fight back because they're silenced as Cho picks up free CS, which gives him good mana and health sustain to continue to harass his opponent while they can't fight back. Heck, he can W flash and R enemy AP/ADCs and kill them while they try to run away (but they can't flash or cast spells because of that insane silence + damage. If he lands that with Rylai's, he'll get a 100% guaranteed Q as well, just burying the nail further into the coffin.

If he lands Q alone, that player is dead, especially in the mid to late game and don't even get me started on how much more powerful Cho becomes when he has a team mate who can engage first and have Cho on follow-up duty or about how amazing he is at being a peeler for his team.

His mobility doesn't make a difference at all because of the way his spells work. The range and damage allows him to easily bypass this crutch with CC, or even ignore it completely by building Zephyr, which is actually an amazing buy on Cho'Gath."

DisasterSola4 votes

{quoted}

Your straw man is absolutely pathetic. Please, instead of mocking the post and turning it into something you don't have to talk about, let's discuss this bit here, you know, the entire point of the post in the first place that everyone has been ignoring!

"Nerf Cho'Gath's Q AP damage by 30% and W silence by about a second to a second and a half. In fact, it wouldn't be a horrible idea to just make it a slow, honestly. You can't fight back against Cho at all, especially if he's building AP. There's no counterplay there. He forces his opponents out of lane with his W and they can't fight back because they're silenced as Cho picks up free CS, which gives him good mana and health sustain to continue to harass his opponent while they can't fight back. Heck, he can W flash and R enemy AP/ADCs and kill them while they try to run away (but they can't flash or cast spells because of that insane silence + damage. If he lands that with Rylai's, he'll get a 100% guaranteed Q as well, just burying the nail further into the coffin.

If he lands Q alone, that player is dead, especially in the mid to late game and don't even get me started on how much more powerful Cho becomes when he has a team mate who can engage first and have Cho on follow-up duty or about how amazing he is at being a peeler for his team.

His mobility doesn't make a difference at all because of the way his spells work. The range and damage allows him to easily bypass this crutch with CC, or even ignore it completely by building Zephyr, which is actually an amazing buy on Cho'Gath."

How is my argument a strawman when youre doing the exact same thing? If cho lands his Q he has 2~3 seconds to catch up to them and R. A majority of the meta consists of champions with gap closers; ANY of those gapclosers all the way down to vaynes tumble, will let you get away from a cho who landed his Q.

You are, extremely so, underestimating the power of mobility and just WHY it makes immobile champions like cho quiver in rage.
Yes, you are right that cho has amazing damage. Cho is, however, Immobile. By the very nature of blinks and dashes an immobile champion without something like ghost WILL NOT catch up to a mobile champion with the same or slightly lower movement speed unless they were severely out of position.

You run into those udyr goose chases where you chase someone from base to base, just because they can flash/dash away and you have to walk.

ChickenWrap1 votes

{quoted}

How is my argument a strawman when youre doing the exact same thing? If cho lands his Q he has 2~3 seconds to catch up to them and R. A majority of the meta consists of champions with gap closers; ANY of those gapclosers all the way down to vaynes tumble, will let you get away from a cho who landed his Q.

You are, extremely so, underestimating the power of mobility and just WHY it makes immobile champions like cho quiver in rage.
Yes, you are right that cho has amazing damage. Cho is, however, Immobile. By the very nature of blinks and dashes an immobile champion without something like ghost WILL NOT catch up to a mobile champion with the same or slightly lower movement speed unless they were severely out of position.

You run into those udyr goose chases where you chase someone from base to base, just because they can flash/dash away and you have to walk.

I am Not underestimating the power of mobility. The power of mobility is Not that big, especially in the TANK META.

Cho'Gath having slightly less mobility is made up for by his insane damage and CC and unkillableness. If Cho knows how to lead a Q, he's going to be handed free gold.

Ratbert3 votes

"Guise i'm not underestimating the power of what defined the meta for like 2 years by underestimating it". Mobility is always huge, i don't get where having mobility gets worse as the amount of cc increases.

"slightly less" Literally nothing in cho's kit gives mobility.

If people knew how to right click to walk, you can dodge a cho q unless your hand spasms or you purposely suicide.

ChickenWrap1 votes

{quoted}

"Guise i'm not underestimating the power of what defined the meta for like 2 years by underestimating it". Mobility is always huge, i don't get where having mobility gets worse as the amount of cc increases.

"slightly less" Literally nothing in cho's kit gives mobility.

If people knew how to right click to walk, you can dodge a cho q unless your hand spasms or you purposely suicide.

Because mobility doesn't make a champion good or bad, and kits are (usually) tuned around a champions mobility.

In the tank meta, mobility is thrown out the window and Cho'Gath doesn't care about mobility in the first place because of his W, which removes an entire kit for two and a half seconds. Just enough time to 100-0 somebody or easily hit them with a Q, which, again, is not hard to predict or land.

Ratbert1 votes

And so, cho, with his 0 mobility, is tuned around it.

In the assassin meta you die and your entire kit and auto attacks (which is part of a kit) are invalidated because you die.

ChickenWrap1 votes

{quoted}

And so, cho, with his 0 mobility, is tuned around it.

In the assassin meta you die and your entire kit and auto attacks (which is part of a kit) are invalidated because you die.

Unless Cho presses W and then eats rhe assassin, killing then instantly while his team takes 0 damage.

Ratbert1 votes

Because the assassin was literally retarded enough to not use his mobility and somehow walk up to cho to die. Silence does not prohibit movement, nor does it prohibit autoattacks. Ergo, cho is op when his opponents are just THAT BAD.

You'd probably split shit about poppy having invincibility from 4 people or soraka for being able to create a silence field with a global uncounterable heal.

Lord Dusteon1 votes

{quoted}

Because the assassin was literally retarded enough to not use his mobility and somehow walk up to cho to die. Silence does not prohibit movement, nor does it prohibit autoattacks. Ergo, cho is op when his opponents are just THAT BAD.

You'd probably split shit about poppy having invincibility from 4 people or soraka for being able to create a silence field with a global uncounterable heal.

To be fair most assassins are heavily countered by Cho'Gath, as almost every one has to be in melee range for part of their damage (LeBlanc W, Kat E, Talon QE, ). Most champions in melee range get destroyed by Cho if he lands QW, and most assassins gapclose puts them in an easily seen spot. So vs assassins, Cho destroys. Against midlaners/adcs, he can win if he consistently lands QW and gets ahead, but he also pushes constantly when doing so and is immobile. He has great damage, but requires consistent landing and the enemy jungler to be bad.

ChickenWrap1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lWBVZoq8,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-04-21T22:36:39.148+0000)

To be fair most assassins are heavily countered by Cho'Gath, as almost every one has to be in melee range for part of their damage (LeBlanc W, Kat E, Talon QE, ). Most champions in melee range get destroyed by Cho if he lands QW, and most assassins gapclose puts them in an easily seen spot. So vs assassins, Cho destroys. Against midlaners/adcs, he can win if he consistently lands QW and gets ahead, but he also pushes constantly when doing so and is immobile. He has great damage, but requires consistent landing and the enemy jungler to be bad.

I disagree. Chos W does push, yes, but he hits so hard eith it that after a few hits his opponent has to leave lane or they just die. Landing Q is not difficult, either.

I only have a few minutes left of break so I made this very brief.

Meep Man4 votes

{quoted}

Because reading the entire post that was made is too hard for some people, they'll ignore everything important and focus on the thing they can make fun of instead of having a proper conversation about the topic at hand.

Also Veigar's W is not a crappy ability.

Look, what I and some people are trying to say is you have only stated his kit, the numbers, and what he does. If there was some jarring, huge number then it would be different, but you didn't point out anything special except that Rylai's applies on his E, which does seem odd for an on-hit ability. If you want to make Cho'Gath sound OP and prove he is OP, you have to tell me why something is not needed on his kit for X and Y reason.

Also, Veigar's W is crappy. You have to have some kind of Sixth Sense to properly hit that thing without the enemy dodging it. Ever since they made his E have some delay, his W has only been useful when you have a composition designed around having a Veigar, which isn't too smart since he isn't exactly a hyper carry that can destroy multiple people in a fight. Plus, for the most part, any target Veigar is going to kill is going to be within his ultimate range and with his Q to finish them off. His Q and R, unless you are facing a serious Tank, is enough to kill any target worth targeting. Plus, if you have to use your W to kill an enemy with your full rotation, they will inevitably kill you or be about to kill you before the Dark Matter even lands. That is why Veigar's W is a bad ability. Due to it's delay, it not only goes against Veigar's theme as a quick burst mage, but it isn't even viable on it's own as poke. It needs to be replaced by a better ability or be changed.

I just wrote a paragraph on why Veigar's W is a bad ability and should be buffed or replaced. Now do that with Cho'Gath and I will write an actual response telling you why I agree or disagree with you.

Lecrisko3 votes

D5 19 LP...played last game as Nasus ranked and lost to Cho'Gath. Hmmm.... You can say I am a shit bronze but at least I don't go around on the forums saying "x champ is op because blabhalbabjahbakgflkasjdfuasdjt fuck you rito balance team u guys suk"

ChickenWrap1 votes

{quoted}

D5 19 LP...played last game as Nasus ranked and lost to Cho'Gath. Hmmm.... You can say I am a shit bronze but at least I don't go around on the forums saying "x champ is op because blabhalbabjahbakgflkasjdfuasdjt fuck you rito balance team u guys suk"

Played last ranked game as Shaco and won, actually, plus that Cho'Gath was mid, not top. Furthermore, I did pretty well on that team, given the circumstances. No, it has nothing to do with that game.

But I suppose you'll just base it off the fact I fought a Cho'Gath 9 hours ago (who is a very popular pick, so who would have thought?) and not that I've been talking about how powerful he's been for so long (since a few weeks before the Tank Meta solidified itself).

My list of "Overpowered" champions are all champions that include 0 counterplay and/or are good at everything with no drawbacks.

Lord Dusteon3 votes

{quoted}

Played last ranked game as Shaco and won, actually, plus that Cho'Gath was mid, not top. Furthermore, I did pretty well on that team, given the circumstances. No, it has nothing to do with that game.

But I suppose you'll just base it off the fact I fought a Cho'Gath 9 hours ago (who is a very popular pick, so who would have thought?) and not that I've been talking about how powerful he's been for so long (since a few weeks before the Tank Meta solidified itself).

My list of "Overpowered" champions are all champions that include 0 counterplay and/or are good at everything with no drawbacks.

Sidenote, didn't you spend a month or so QQing about Zyra? After her nerfs? Where the only thing she was noticed at was as an outclassed mid and squishy support?

ChickenWrap1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lWBVZoq8,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-04-21T02:28:25.134+0000)

Sidenote, didn't you spend a month or so QQing about Zyra? After her nerfs? Where the only thing she was noticed at was as an outclassed mid and squishy support?

She was still insanely powerful, I just gave up. She's not so strong now in the tank meta, but if we go back to squishier team comps? Zyra is back to being incredibly overpowered.

Thankfully (I suppose) she's still out-shined by Orianna, who is at least twice as bad.

Pucking Purrfect2 votes

Cool story bro.

Popstar Ahri2 votes

I agree, he is broken freelo

Popstar Ahri1 votes

b

ChickenWrap1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri the Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lWBVZoq8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-04-25T17:45:01.479+0000)

b

That's not usually how thraeds in G&B gain notice, since most view "recent"

Popstar Ahri1 votes

Diamond 4 guys.. hes diamond4.. no back talk

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