In my opinion, for Marksmen to be a healthier class, Riot should flesh out their gameplay niche

Malicious Metal··143 votes·8,087 views

Currently the way Marksmen are picked is according to this graph: ->Which one deals the MOST damage ->Which one deals that Damage with the least amount of effort

The champions that fit these criteria then become pick/ban material and grossly overbearing, mostly because ADC's all serve the same Purpose: Reliable Ranged DPS (Or BPS in some cases)

Which greatly limits champion diversity. And not only with other carry classes other than Marksmen but their in-class champions as well. There's currently no reason to pick something like Ashe or Jinx when Tristana/Twitch/Vayne are open.

Which leads me to the main point I'm trying to make: #Marksmen need to have their tactical role in a team fleshed out more

Marksmen should become more than just the BEST damage pick in said role, but rather offer interesting gameplay niches based on the specific Marksman's kit so that they can be picked to complement a team's strength or make up for their weaknesses.

They should not strictly be balanced around Damage as a whole but rather HOW they contribute to their team.


For example:

Varus Ashe Would be your GO TO picks for team comps that rely heavily on Pick potential and Utility, with both of them providing strong CC to not only catch people out of position but also to contribute to their team with more than just DPS

Twitch and Vayne would be the Flanker class ADC's. They'd rely on navigating through enemy lines/outside of them to get in a position to strike. They'd play more like Assassins with them having good target access and ways to outplay the enemy team but they would lack the tools to fight when they're being caught off guard themselves

KogMaw Kalista Would be THE picks to deal with heavy Frontlines and serve as the primary SHRED machines, having the highest potential DPS and TANK shredding but requiring a lot of ally protection to do their job. They'd also provide the highest potential objective control due to Kog's W and Kalista's rend

Tristana Jinx Would be the CLEANUP/Teamfight ADC's. Their job would be ending a Teamfight once it started by utilizing their reset mechanics to clean up low Hp targets and then continue on from there

Caitlyn Jhin Are the SNIPERS and Siege Marksmen. They'd have superior range and good setup in form of Traps, Deadly Flourish, Curtain Call and so on. They would be picked to stay miles away from the enemy team and contribute with their superior range, providing their team with great sieging potential and ways to keep the enemy team at an arm's length

MissFortune Draven Would be the BURST "YOLO" ad's that would heavily rely on snowballing and destroying squishes through their insane flat damage and potential burst. They'd be early game bullies that focus on gaining a lead and then winning off of that.

Ezreal Lucian Are the Spellslinger class that would excel at dictating the flow of battle through their superior mobility and "Hit and Run" tactics. They would be lower range than most ADC's but their mobility makes theme extremely elusive and self-sufficient.


By fleshing out a Marksman' role Riot would actually open Bot lane up for other picks like Mages and bruisers as well. But mainly give people reasons beyond DAMAGE to pick ADC's and thus put an end to these stale metas where just FOUR ad's are consistently god tier and the others just flat out suck.

Mage picks like Cassiopeia and Ryze would be good bot lane alternatives if your team is sufficiently stacked with Physical damage whereas bruisers like Darius Mordekaiser would be the go to picks for comps that want to Brawl and Skirmish and already have sieging in form of Jayce/Gnar/Azir. Even Divers like Jax or Irelia would be good alternatives if you needed target access carries on your team.

All in all I think Marksmen as a class would benefit greatly from fleshing out their unique roles in a team comp instead of just being cookie cutter DPS machines.

119 Comments

Ralanr66 votes

When Riot released the subclasses and didn’t have any for marksmen, I realized that Riot either felt that each marksman was too unique to fall into a subclass or that marksmen were too similar to separate them into subclasses.

At this point, I think the latter was right.

So if marksmen were to be more diversified based on their specialties, I’d label them as the following:

Gunslingers: marksmen that specialize in 1v1 dueling and are very mobile (making them the best kiters). Graves, Lucian, Ezreal, Kindred, Vayne, and Draven I feel fall into this category.

Snipers: long range and siege focused marksmen that are at their weakest when dived on due to lacking mobility. Varus, Jhin, and Caitlyn (yes she has mobility) I feel fall best into this category.

Shredders/Assault: Marksmen best suited for taking down structures and high health targets (technically gunslingers could belong here as well, hence the problem but work with me here). Ashe, Tristana, Twitch, Xayah, and Sivir imo would belong here.

It’s just how I’d like to view them.

RocketRelm5 votes

Yeah, filling out niches and where a champions strengths lie would help, though right now a lot of them cross categories (is Tristana Sniper because she gets to almost 700 range, Gunslinger because W and Ult disengage, or Shredder because of her E?). I think most of the adcs I can pin. to belong to 2 of the categories.

Regardless, I'd amend another category here (that probably needs a less silly name if this ever becomes official).

Wombo: Marksmen that focus on huge AoE damage and setting up/cleaning up large team fights by applying significant AoE, or extremely powerful initiation abilities. (Twitch, Miss Fortune, Sivir)

Below I tried setting up each marksman into subcategories, given "Gunslinger, Sniper/Shredder/ Wombo as the four categories. No idea how accurate I was, but aside from a couple exceptions I got every marksman into a different category.

Ashe Shredder/Sniper Cait: Sniper Corki: Sniper/Shredder Draven: Gunslinger (Immobile) Ezreal: Gunslinger/Sniper Miss Fortune: Wombo/Gunslinger Jhin: Sniper/Gunslinger Jinx: Shredder Lucian: Gunslinger Kalista: Gunslinger/Shredder Kindred: Gunslinger (Jungle) Kog: Shredder/Sniper Sivir: Wombo/Shredder Tristana Shredder/Sniper/Gunslinger (she's kinda got features of all 3) Twitch: Shredder/Wombo Varus: Sniper Vayne: Shredder/Gunslinger Xayah: Shredder

An Draoi1 votes

{quoted}

When Riot released the subclasses and didn’t have any for marksmen, I realized that Riot either felt that each marksman was too unique to fall into a subclass or that marksmen were too similar to separate them into subclasses.

At this point, I think the latter was right.

So if marksmen were to be more diversified based on their specialties, I’d label them as the following:

Gunslingers: marksmen that specialize in 1v1 dueling and are very mobile (making them the best kiters). Graves, Lucian, Ezreal, Kindred, Vayne, and Draven I feel fall into this category.

Snipers: long range and siege focused marksmen that are at their weakest when dived on due to lacking mobility. Varus, Jhin, and Caitlyn (yes she has mobility) I feel fall best into this category.

Shredders/Assault: Marksmen best suited for taking down structures and high health targets (technically gunslingers could belong here as well, hence the problem but work with me here). Ashe, Tristana, Twitch, Xayah, and Sivir imo would belong here.

It’s just how I’d like to view them.

Idk, Jhin definitely fits the Sniper category but if you build any attack speed on him, he's one of the best kiters in the game imho. He can outrun almost everything with 2-3 zeal items, although his damage will lack somewhat. So he could be a Gunslinger, but his identity as sniper is more fitting.

Athenes Lulu11 votes

preseason 6 was an attempt at that, actually.

Burnt Iron King4 votes

A poor one like every class rework if you ask me.

Ichoes1 votes

Do you think the assassin's rework was a poor one ? Of course there were failures, (Leblanc after her nerfs, to only name one ) but as a Talon main and Katarina enthusiast, and also a huge assassin player, I think overall it was great.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

In general many people considered the class updates bad. I don't share this opinion, at least I can say that the champions got kits which are thematically much better.

The changes to Zac, Sejuani freezing enemies and shattering them, Graves shotgun gameplay and many more. They fit their fantasy much better now.

Ichoes1 votes

Yeah I do agree. And it gives an occasion to change champions that have some poor gameplay/spells but are still functional like Talon was.

Abibyama12 votes

And it sorta worked, I guess

Quinn Corki got their “Roaming Marksmen” niche fleshed pretty nicely though that resulted in Corki getting forced out of botlane and Quinn should have gotten way more work tbh

Caitlyn She has her “Long range siege marksman” niche now but it resulted her being a balance mess

Graves Fits his theme better but again he got forced out of botlane because of his AA mechanics

Anways the class reworks were just a half baked works and I’m glad that they ditched it

Masala Chai3 votes

Quinn was rarely played botlane before the marksman rework.

saltran15 votes

{quoted}

Quinn was rarely played botlane before the marksman rework.

Quinn was rarely played*

Masala Chai9 votes

Quote me on this: She is played roughly the same in botlane both before and after the rework.

EssenceOfPoo7 votes

that's definitely an interesting thought but how would you suggest those niche to be flashed out?

Abibyama12 votes

I guess individual kit adjustments works

But AD itemization needs proper work and diversified a bit more.

Arakadia7 votes

They tried this in the marksmen update. So this would need to be approached a different way then last time.

DracosKasu6 votes

The problem is they also create item to fix an issue that X adc have. Their item give then too much in a single item pick. Crit, attack speed, Burst effect and cd need to be more spread into their item selection and shouldnt be stack in a single one like the shiv item.

50000000000000002 votes

It's also important to note how many marksmen simply need Shiv to be effective. It provides too many things, waveclear to add to your list.

Yordle Xayah7 votes

This is what they tried to do with the ADC update back in the day, but then they made everyone good at everything again.

For a while they were... Tristana Jinx The reset-positioning Late Game Hyper Carries with weak laning phases. KogMaw Twitch Vayne Even weaker laning than the previous group, but even better at melting tanks. MissFortune The Wombo Team-Fighter. Caitlyn Zone and objective control ADC. Corki Ezreal Low damage with high constant poke characters. Ashe Varus Fight initiators, high utility. Sivir Wave clear specialist and most supportive type of ADC in the game. Lucian Draven The lane aggressive options for early domination. Kalista Was the most overloaded of the bunch, able to pretty much do everything better than everyone else, thus why she's been kept in an over-nerfed state ala Old Eve style for so long. Xayah Then was somewhat similar to Trist and Jinx but with a bit less power but great chances to control fights with the CC from her feathers. Jhin Was another lane-power option with good fight control in the late game.

Then what happened?? Crit items get buffed so characters from the first two groups, who are designed to scale by minute 35 now do it by min 20, so now is just absurd to play Lucian, Draven or Jhin really unless you are like a one trick or something. Vayne is just not weak in lane anymore. Kog was reverted into a state of limbo, and Twitch has been running rampant for months unchanged. MF's ultimate is as good on 5 people as it is on 2 or 3 people, so now she's also a good duelist and her poke in lane can get insane. Ez and Corki's damage is off the charts so unless they reduce their poke power, what made them unique, they become impossible to bear with. Cait became so strong in early that she remained strong for the mid game and in the late game resembled more characters from the first two groups, and that's why she was the only really good AD for a while till they murdered her. Sivir's team fighting power is now so strong because of how absurd crit can get with her bounces. Remember she was hotfixed a while ago because how obtuse that damage became suddenly? Varus can build whatever he wants and all works on him. Crit, Muramana-build, On-Hit build, just build whatever. He has no identity. He's good at everything. Draven is now in a situation that because the game works, that if he gets ahead, then there isn't even a late game and like Cait, starts resembling more the characters of the first two groups. Lucian is a mess... they buff him, they nerf him, he's OP on a build, then becomes the worst AD next patch and I have no idea what's up with this guy. Xayah is in a bit of a similar situation to the first two groups and Jhin sucks right now because he can't scratch tanks.

It's a mess, and when you think about it, this damage has been creeping up and up all the time cause they've made ADCs the primary anti-tank class, another group that just continues to get damage buffs. Everything's more damage nowadays. Jinx just got a Q buff and they're buffing Rengar on the PBE...

The Power Creep topic is real, and it destroyed the intention of making ADCs good at specific roles, and it's all over the place now :(

LoliKnight2 votes

Won't a Rengar buff work wonders against the ADC meta?

Yordle Xayah6 votes

It's a Tank meta though, not an ADC meta. Thing is (as many people have started to point out) that the only class that can deal with those tanks are the ADC. You can look around for a lot of posts that suggest ideas ranging from nerfing tanks, buffing bruisers to be the Tank-dealing class, and right here we're discussing making ADC characters fit specific play styles better. But it's all dictated by the Tanks (who have recently started to deal damage too similar to the old Mao/Poppy meta) needing a class that can deal with them.

So no... I don't think Rengar will do anything to fix the meta. It's just more damage onto a champion that time and time again has proven to be a massive problem if they step just a bit further than necessary. If it was any other champion, maybe... but Rengar just has a history.

Nymzo5 votes

Actually I have something to suggest for each marksman:

First of all, most ADCS would be DPS instead of bursting people through crits (there will be a few exceptions). Now for the ADCS...

Caitlyn should be the sniper specialist of the ADC. However, in order to give her role, I think it would make sense to give her Tristana's passif. That way she isn't a pain to lane against and later, she can have very long range.

Ashe and Sivir stay the same big utility marksmans role.

Draven stays Draven being the snowball adc.

Jhin is the another ADC who can burst, nothing change for him either.

Twitch is fully redesigned into a true assasin adc that doesn't burst teams anymore. I don't know what ult he should have but we should expand on his poison, perhaps an execution at 5 stacks (totaly did not copy pasted that from Darius but I had honestly no idea what ult to give him)

KogMaw gets a new passif that shread defenses, making him a tank buster but his w is also reworked into a movement speed steriod, q apply a movement speed debuff instead of shreading armor. He is no longer an artillary adc (sorry ap Kog maw players :( )

MissFortune ... is a teamfight adc like she always was I guess?

Xayah has her piercing fethers mechanic so I guess she doesn't change either.

Lucian and Vayne are both mobiles adc. Lucian is the spellcaster one while Vayne is the auto attacker oriented one. Obviously Vayne is no longer a tank buster, she's pretty much a single target assasin that is better in teamfight than Twitch.

Varus is now the artillery adc. His kit doesn't need change I think outside of maybe w if necessery.

Tristana is now design as the adc with the most AOE, aka with explosifs. Her passif is now a stronger version of her E passif, rocket jump doesn't reset on kills or assist anymore but still reset on fully stacked E and her ult will probably need a range buff if the base range is too short. Obviously she burst but no in an assasin like anymore.

Kalista gets a less toxic passif, otherwise her stacking rend make her unique along with her Owen. Perhaps her passif would be a revenge mechanic everytime an ally dies? Giving her a steriod and even more if her Owen dies before her.

Jinx stays the same. Althouht I realize she may have a similar role to this Tristana but unfortunately I had no idea what role would Tristana have after her range passif removal aside of the ''BOOM!'' one.

Ezreal is tricky, his q is problematic because of the one-hit effect on it yet he would be terrible without it. I had an idea: since Ezreal's weapon is magic, how about his passif is that after his next spell; his autos or q deal extra damage converted as magic dmg. I'm trying to find a replacement for his q since he has a clear role as the skillshot adc.

Corki stays the same, even if this new Ezreal would be even more similar to him.

Quinn is weird but you know, why doesn't Valor participate more with Quinn? They could be some kind of tag duo assasin adc I guess? She probably wouldn't be back to bot lane, too short range with too much burst.

Graves can stays in the jungle with his shotgun as the bruiser adc I guess.

Sonasaurous3 votes

Quinn is weird but you know, why doesn't Valor participate more with Quinn? They could some kind of tag duo assasin adc I guess? She probably wouldn't be back to bot lane, too short range with too much burst.

Pre-rework Quinn's ult would swap Quinn out for Valor, effectively making you super fast and melee and allowing you to basically play as an assassin. Yet even though old Quinn was still relatively weak and swapping out to Valor often meant you were suicide bombing, Riot apparently thought it was a bad idea for Quinn to have assassin gameplay (because she's supposed to be a botlane marksman!) and got rid of all of that completely. But then Quinn players continued to take Quinn top, as she's not very viable at all bot because her AA range is barely marksman but not quite melee, and Riot has since forgotten about her. Again.

Flemman5 votes

The only problem with this is that, even if you reach the point where they are all diverse enough to open teamcomp, player mentality is so biased toward "we should play around marksmen" that 90% of the time you will not pick the marksmen who fit the comp, but the comp who fit the strongest type of marksmen at a said time.

When they are not the center of the game, we know that they tend to complain a lot so I doubt that they will be open to pick a champ to fit a teamcomp if it's to let another guy be the carry

AirKingNeo5 votes

->Which one deals the MOST damage ->Which one deals that Damage with the least amount of effort

You mean most champions

AquariusGine4 votes

In order for this to happen, Riot should start by NERFING damage across the board.

(I'm quoting another very interesting thread)

Marksmen should no longer be picked for ranged DPS. They should be able offer utility that sets them apart from other champions.

You know, as I'm writing this I just realized why mages, bruisers, tanks do no share the same problems marksmen do. They each come with abilities that serve very different purposes, not just ranged DPS

AmazoX4 votes

Reduce power in ADC's right clicking mechanics of nuking enemies with 700-900 damage per click in 0.5-1 second and there would be more diversity, currently its who can burst the best safely with right clicking.

Yosuke Apperu4 votes

I feel like reworking crit or getting rid of it completely would be a good start. Almost every marksmen rushes to try and get their BF sword before their opponent. As annoying as kleptomancy ezreal is, I'm happy to see a marksmen that doesn't rush a fully built infinity edge at the beginning of the game.

LuxMalice2 votes

As a Jinx main (feelsbad), IE is terrible to rush on her. Runaans ftw. I agree to a point though. They don't really need to rework crit, and removing it would be pretty pointless. They need to have bigger trade-offs for building crit. As it stands, the only trade-off is defensive stats that don't make much of a difference for DPS champs anyway. Crit iems have far too much utility. Except Runaans. Best item in game [sg-jinx]

saltran1 votes

Infinity Edge is a horrible first item in EVERY adc. But this apes seem that hasn't even played a single game as an adc in their life and ofc they have the key to balance adcs xd.

Jamenawerl3 votes

10/10.

I totally agree with the main point of the thread, in fact I was thinking about making a similar thread myself. But fuck writing long shit out of nowhere honestly. If you feel like it maybe a thread about making trilanes viable now that rito is trying to allow other classes to carry would be interesting. Even double jungle or a roaming supp may be a possibility.

I would like to point two things out, tho: -- Marksmen and ADC should STOP being almost synonims. This is kinda the whole point of the thread but I feel you were not clear enough (implying that some "ADCs" should excel at such and such above other "ADCs", thus mixing terms). There should be powerful early game marksmen that dont scale well into lategame and niche marksmen that rely on some kind of gimmick to be functional without being damage powerhouses (e.g. Caitlyn sieging power, Ashe's utility, etc.), essentially what would be called a specialist in HotS. They would do decent damage constantly, maybe some of them would be tankier or have more burst, but not ALL of them should be allowed to do THAT MUCH DPS.

-- I dont agree with the niche you gave to each marksman, although Im aware it was just an example. Imho it should be more like this: Ashe Utility. Caitlyn Siege. Probably fine as it is. Draven Stupid damage conditioned by snowball. High risk-high reward. Probably fine as it is. Ezreal Safe/generalist marksman. Jhin Picks. Jinx Cleanup. Although I personally would like to see her as a heavy and slow lanebully and AoE damage dealer with her bazooka. Welp, hopefully in the future another champion will have that theme. KogMaw HARD carry. He is the purest ADC, even Juggermaw comps are named after him. Thus, his earlygame and midgame should be weaker to make it harder to reach his late-game power fantasy. Lucian Lane bully. MissFortune AoE wombo-combo. Sivir Deathball. In other words, push and dive comps. Tristana Splitpush and tower buster. Twitch Flanking and ranged assassin. As such, his carry capabilities should be diminished, and his early game should be made stronger. Varus Poke and disengage. Vayne Tank buster and kite specialist (so logically also bruiser counter). Therefore she should be weaker against ranged threats. Xayah Disabler+nuker with an inbuilt zhonya. Her autos should serve primarily as preparation for her abilities.

Kalista Im not sure what to do with her, she is a fucking mess and older champions already do similar things. Maybe she should focus in providing a different kind of utility than Ashe. Ally mobility, ally stasis, "smite" rend, damage transfer from dead targets, etc.

Corki Graves Kindred Quinn Are already different enough. I dont think they need further work.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

10/10.

I totally agree with the main point of the thread, in fact I was thinking about making a similar thread myself. But fuck writing long shit out of nowhere honestly. If you feel like it maybe a thread about making trilanes viable now that rito is trying to allow other classes to carry would be interesting. Even double jungle or a roaming supp may be a possibility.

I would like to point two things out, tho: -- Marksmen and ADC should STOP being almost synonims. This is kinda the whole point of the thread but I feel you were not clear enough (implying that some "ADCs" should excel at such and such above other "ADCs", thus mixing terms). There should be powerful early game marksmen that dont scale well into lategame and niche marksmen that rely on some kind of gimmick to be functional without being damage powerhouses (e.g. Caitlyn sieging power, Ashe's utility, etc.), essentially what would be called a specialist in HotS. They would do decent damage constantly, maybe some of them would be tankier or have more burst, but not ALL of them should be allowed to do THAT MUCH DPS.

THIS 100%

JoeMG3 votes

It sounds great, but how does it actually get accomplished? All ADCs and their items would need a complete overhaul (which I'm all for but don't think Riot will ever commit to something like that).

Sp33d Zer03 votes

Kalista is a terrible tank shredder though....

FlameHalbrdOkido3 votes

So yes marksmen need to have their roles/strengths/weaknesses diversified for the sake of game health and champion viability diversity and team comp diversity. I agree with a lot of the stuff that u said and have been saying it for a while and I hope i can remember all the key points (I probably won't).

As it stands now Marksmen are probably one of the most stat-checky champs, and this is an issue because I thought Riot said that they thought this was bad for game health, as just like supports giving AD or AS, it leads to those with the strongest stats becoming mandatory picks and edging out competition where there should be a range of viable options.

It also creates this unhealthy balance pattern where those that are all meant to do the same thing are balanced either around whos doing well or not. In some cases this can lead to powercreep where those that aren't performing are buffed.

Instead of all marksmen being focused on being able to the same things to varying degrees of success they should have a diverse range of skills. When they are designed to all be gud at the same thing the game becomes stale which is another issue because I thought Riot was wanted to keep the game fresh, yet instead of games being unique you often see the same champs bot lane.

Not all marksmen should be good at shredding tanks, not all marksmen should be late game carries, not all marksmen should be super gud at taking objectives, not all marksmen should have BPS (in fact most of them SHOULDN'T), not all marksmen should have TOP notch waveclear. And on further more not all marksmen should get near the same level optimum use of ALL the same items. Some should be stronger on some marksmen and weaker on others, and ITEMS should DEFINITELY NOT be used to completely negate a marksman type's intended weakness. Their reliability needs to be decreased as well.

There should be advantages and counter play. I dont know where they are supposed to exist in the current marksmen but I know that they should. Overall we should also be discussing the intended strengths and weaknesses of Marksmen as a whole and why they shouldn't be able to negate their weaknesses with items. Marksmen for the most part should have good DPS (NOT BPS) and good range. These are their key defining features. Thier weakness is that they are squishy and take time to deal dmg. Thus for the most part Markmen should NOT be tanky, have access to EXCEPTIONAL HP regen, and shouldn't be dealing BPS, not even with items.

Additionally all markmens should not be good at taking care of tanks, let other classes get some of that action as well. Furthermore something should be done so that champs that are meant to take care of tanks are not ALSO gud at taking out squishies. Ideas that come to mind are increased Armor pen/armor shred the more armor the target has, increased damage for increase HP difference.

Marksmen strengths/weaknesses/roles/goals/and map positions should ALL be diversified to varying degrees. This way we can have more of a rock/paper/scissors type of game set up; where either one type of marksman or class is stronger in certain circumstances and weaker in others; where one type of marksman isn't always dominating and allows other classes room to use their strengths to fight a certain type of marksman weakness. Ah u guys all know how rock/paper/scissors works. This will decrease their reliability.

That should be it with the analysis of the issues w/ current marksman design/health and what it should be. Below are the suggestions for solutions in defining their subclass characteristics. Personally i think u split them up too much and got too specific

Sniper Marksmen Ashe Caitlyn Jhin Varus Ashe, Cait, Jhin, Varus These Marksmen take down and pick out targets with masterful use of CC and long range abilities. They have superior ranged AA or abilities and are able to keep their distance with good setup in form of traps and CC. They would be picked to stay miles away from the enemy team and contribute with their range, providing their team with zoning ways to keep the enemy team at an arm's length. Chosen either for their pick or utility potential they are able to catch people out of position and punish them well. In order to enhance the theme of staying at range to deal with their targets, their CC duration could be increased the further they are from a CC'd target as well as their dmg by a small bit. Their weaknesses are lower AS, lower DPS, and lower MS. If caught without their team and abilities on CD they go down faster than most especially due to their lack of mobility as a drawback for their long range.

Siege/Machine gun Marksmen Jinx Kalista KogMaw Tristana Jinx, Kalista, Kog'Maw, Tristana These marksmen are great for targeting objectives and taking them down FAST. Left to their own devices their high AS, and sustained DPS will melt through towers and objectives, and once the job is near completion they also pack an ace up their sleeve to secure it, or to keep on going once its done. They are meant for mid-late game. They have the highest potential DPS but they need time to ramp up the damage over time, thus need an ally or team that can cover for them or they are not much of a threat as they will be forced to disengage or die. They are also great for dealing with slow Frontlines with heavy resistances. Their weaknesses would be their shorter AA range (500-525), large dependence on allies to protect them to do their job, lower AD, and their one target at a time nature.

Ranger Marksmen Ezreal Lucian Twitch Vayne Ezreal, Lucian, Vayne, Twitch These Marksmen are picked for their ability to get in or out of fights. They rely on navigating through enemy lines/outside of them to get in a position to strike. They are great at dispatching squishy targets with their high AD but should struggle against meatier threats. They'd play more like Slayers having good target access with their mobility making them elusive and self sufficient. They are best when they can surprise the enemy and get the jump on them with the first hit. They have ways to outplay the enemy team but they would lack the tools to fight when they're being caught off guard without a team and by themselves. With out their mobility they are even weaker especially to CC. They are strongest around mid game. Their weaknesses would be having the least range, and significantly decreased DPS if many abilities are on CD. Without their abilities they generally have less AS as well.

Shot Gun Marksmen MissFortune Draven Graves Miss Fortune, Draven, Graves These marksmen deal high amounts of damage in fasts bursts in LARGE areas. They would have the highest flat damage and potential burst against groups of enemies. They'd be early game bullies that focus on gaining a lead and then winning off of that. In order to emphasize their dependence on AoE dmg, their AoE dmg could be increased while their AA dmg decreased, while increasing their AA dmg on targets affected by their own AoE dmg. Their weakness is that outside of weak MS buffs they have no mobility and with low resistances are easily taken down and that while they can snowball they do not scale as well into the late game as other marksmen/ADCs. Additionally they have low AS speed.

Corki, Graves, Sivir, Kindred, Quinn, Xayah are all pretty unique which is why I guess you didn't mention them. Its worth mentioning that they all (Xayah excepted because she's new) are not seen much in the bot lane anymore and that's because (read: 2nd paragraph)

Balance Changes that sure occur whether its to solidify a marksman's subclass or not

Cait Her passive shouldn't work on turrets, it should have a high CD that goes down with autos so she has to wait for the right shot like a real sniper. AS needs to go down as well.

Vayne Q shouldn't work on turrets.

Sivir The W bounces shouldn't crit if the initial target is crit, each bounce should have its own crit chance...if it should get crit at all Her W should be changed to: her AA deal dmg on the way to, a short distance past the initial target, and on the the way back, but only deals 5% dmg to all but the primary target. When Sivir's MS is temporarily buffed her AA's always travels the full range (travel time doesn't change) and she gains AS. Her W and passive should be switched. E: Sivir spell shields her boomerang, not herself. This way she can save allies from skillshots.

Xayah's The E shouldn't crit

Tristana The passive is unhealthy, as she is one of the safest marksmen, one of her ability passives can become her new main passive. Ult shouldn't be unit cast. Her AD is too high.

Twitch Crit needs to get reworked or removed as an item stat R shouldn't crit on all targets, only the one being clicked on

Finally Marksmen should no longer be a synonomis term with ADC, a melee champ should be allowed to be called an ADC as well, ADC should be an umbrella term not a specific term.

Champs that I would like to see go bot that are not markmens would need a few key things to be successful tho: Armed with situationally powerful defensive or HP Regen tools to survive in the fray, along with extreme sustained damage to cut down even the most durable targets. People who meet these suggested requirements are:

Illoai, Rengar, Fiora, Jax, Master Yi, Riven, Yasuo, Mord, Irelia, Kat, Diana, J4, Panth, Vi Xin Zhao

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

''Not all marksmen should be good at shredding tanks, not all marksmen should be late game carries, not all marksmen should be super gud at taking objectives, not all marksmen should have BPS (in fact most of them SHOULDN'T), not all marksmen should have TOP notch waveclear. And on further more not all marksmen should get near the same level optimum use of ALL the same items. Some should be stronger on some marksmen and weaker on others, and ITEMS should DEFINITELY NOT be used to completely negate a marksman type's intended weakness. Their reliability needs to be decreased as well.'' [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] Well said!

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lT3B52ki,comment-id=00430000,timestamp=2018-02-06T00:47:34.402+0000)

''Not all marksmen should be good at shredding tanks, not all marksmen should be late game carries, not all marksmen should be super gud at taking objectives, not all marksmen should have BPS (in fact most of them SHOULDN'T), not all marksmen should have TOP notch waveclear. And on further more not all marksmen should get near the same level optimum use of ALL the same items. Some should be stronger on some marksmen and weaker on others, and ITEMS should DEFINITELY NOT be used to completely negate a marksman type's intended weakness. Their reliability needs to be decreased as well.'' [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] Well said!

Thanks, what did u think about my categories?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Sorry for the delay, been busy lately. Personally would've stuck to three categories based on playstyle; auto-focusers, pseudo-mages, and hybrids. I won't go into immense detail but to define what I'm thinking of . . . still can have differing roles within each of course, and a couple examples. Auto-focusers are the one's who rely on auto-attacks for their damage, and towards a single target at a time, but the best dps but little else; champions like caitlyn, draven, and vayne. Pseudo-mages are the ones who function best by ability usage, and more suited to area damage, sacrificing dps for aoes; such as graves, missfortune, and xayah. Hybrids obviously can work as either, depending how they're itemized, however they should under-perform both as a cost for their flexibility; corki, lucian, and tristana come to mind for this.


The only immediate criticism I have is the shotgun and sniper categories; both do great damage periodically, but you didn't go into much of a concept for the shotgun. I'd expect shotgunners to be more dangerous at close range to compensate their lack of range, perhaps having some aoe ability, and/or being the tank-counter category due to them functioning better in close combat, such as graves. And a suggested change for the snipers would be to have them deal less damage to closer targets, doesn't have to be massive, perhaps something like twenty-five percent less if the target's within half their auto-attack range; to encourage them to play and stay at range, instead of imitating a turret against engaging champions.

Ranger marksmen, sounds more like ranged assassin; also how can they be self-sufficient, yet lack the tools when off guard? I know what you mean, but riot in recent years hasn't been particularly good at differentiating the two, so how would you go about implementing a working weakness? I'd also add quinn to that list given her massive mobility and pick potential. This classification sounds like an in-between, if this is the case then wouldn't the outliers go here since they can perform as different categories? I was thinking corki and jayce would be more suited at least.

I did like how you split siegers and snipers, making siege marksmen still vulnerable but better at clearing an area and objectives, though not as long ranged or defensive as the snipers. Though I find it ironic you picked marksmen who can extend their range of threat easily, sivir could go here because of her ricochet and ultimate.

I also agree marksmen being synonymous with ADC isn't accurate; which is why I've rarely used 'adc' and often refer to them as marksmen or ranged physical carries, so it's obvious I'm not talking about mages either. All in all I think you did fine, I specifically liked how you split them up based on duty, gives more variety for balancing than what my idea would've done; though I'd say both our concepts need tweaking anyway.

Kaìju2 votes

Marksmen need more utility. Hyper carries that just do damage are unhealthy because it's a stat check. Who does the most damage. Trist, Jinx, and Kog are all fairly similar in that you get three, four items, and you just mash through the team. They are largely interchangeable, some kind of AOE damage, Trist E, Jinx Q, Kog with hurricane. But Ashe, Sivir, and Varus are not because one has global pressure, one has hybrid %to damage, and one has wave clear and move speed.

Marksmen need to be able to do things to help the team besides just damage.

Cowseed2 votes

Ezreal .. They would be lower range than most ADC's but their mobility makes theme extremely elusive and self-sufficient

Ezreal They would be lower range than most ADC's

Ezreal They would be lower range

Ezreal ...lower range

Ezreal ...low range

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/001/007/WAT.jpg

LoliKnight2 votes

NANI

Verxint2 votes

This is a post I've wanted to make for a while but said a lot better than I would have. Marksman are basically balanced on a one dimensional line and it's the cause of their constant balance problems

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

We could actually differentiate marksmen if we either made their damage inconsistent, or kneecapped them so that their damage becomes low.

Snowman Arc2 votes

Well, what you say is good and all, but no one in bronze / silver / gold is gonna strategize based on what classes you depict. Even at higher elo or even the professional scene, this isn't really gonna do much. Like it or not, ADCs are there to offer damage, and damage is what they will get.

Theorex2 votes

The problem that they are running into is that the trade patterns and team fighting for the ADC's end up feeling the same. If you have mastered playing ADC, with someone like Lucian and Ashe. You can pretty much play all of the ADC with a couple of mistakes on the other champions. The major things about ADC is positioning and dpsing.

ADC's can't show what they are good at or bad at right now because team fights are over in a matter of seconds. You don't get to see how impactful that Ashe Q with Hurricane is. They just all died. You don't get to see that Sivir W bouncing around criting everyone for 1k damage because everyone is dying. Fights are going by too quickly, respawn times are lasting too long, towers are dropping too fast.

Sire Hippington2 votes

The thing is, IF they want to get marksmen more niche, they have to adress crit. Right now, crit is the by far best scaleing stat in the game, and asides from a few abillities, it only affects AAs. The result is that whenever crit isn't fully outclassed by lethality, adc become more and more rightclick focused and thus more and more similar as the game goes on. It also causes them to be hyperscaleing, reliable ranged hyper-dps by default just by the virtue of itemisation(even ad/crit LB reaches stupid dps numbers later on compared to any non ad champ exept maybe cassio, kayle and azir). This makes it hard to give them individuel powercurves, as their lategame spikes heavily compared to any non marksmen anyway, so if their early is to good, they become to dominant overall.

Imo Crit should simply be removed from the game, it's hyperscaleing causes issues, it's AA-focus causes issues(though mostly in combination with the hyperscaleing), and the RNG is a horrible thing that should have been removed the same patch as dodge-chance... Obviously this needs to come with big overal changes to all current crit users, but this would mean we add power and thus relevance to their kits rather than items, allowing them to have a more distinct kit and gameplay.

Yourmothermyhand2 votes

Honestly the CORE mechanic of Marksmen should be like HOTS specialists, and for that they would need to buff the shit out of structures in this game making marksmen specialists in destroying towers while having different ADC's have different niches besides being good vs structures, like Vayne being good at dueling but not a god like now and other niches like you gave.

That would also fix a LOT of problems for this game, also ADCs should NOT be good at waveclearing, that should fall to APC's, they should be in charge of waveclearing for the team mid/late while having niche AP's for structures like Ziggs,or burst/DPS like Cassio or Syndra.

Tanks should be almost immortal but deal almost no dmg and have good CC's to lock down targets, and with towers buffed tanks would be almost useless at pushing like they should be.

Fighters should be godlike at 1vs1 and balanced at anything else.

And bruisers should be godlike teamfighters and meh at the rest.

Assassins should be by far the most safe class in the game with the most mobility and means to kill a target fast BUT have big downtime's between combos and not combos with huge timeframes.

And supp CORE mechanic should be totally focused on vision and not being additional items for carries, they should also have good items to supp all types of classes not just ADC's, like giving for example an item that would link to an ally and would empower a skill every X skills with adaptive dmg, that way it would work on say a Syndra building AP, and an item that would give the supp and link allied a weaker version of item 3800 if the supp was with a bruiser, or an item where the supp would put a warpoint and in the next 5 secs the one linked to him could instantly teleport to it if the champion linked was within a certain range to help Assassins dive, supp role is so fucking boring rn it baffles me how ppl even play it, supp should have the most items in the game imo anyone should be able to supp to some degree and the way they supp would be up to item building.

LegitBacon661 votes

I love this idea, but I also think that the marksmen builds are very stale and boring. Always the same items are built without much variation.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Still better than the mage builds though x)'

Marksmen builds are positively refreshing in comparison.

Infernal Ironic1 votes

Ugh tank shredding niche simply cannot exist at current general balance

Voidstaff and lastwhisper are OP with the insane %

Vayne, Varus, Kog are all seen as tanks shredders What if I told you Xayah hurts tanks just as hard, twitch does so to, anyone with lastwhisper (except jhin/ez ) does to

So that niche alone just wont happen without global changes

Best example is velkoz. None actually picks him for his true damage. Everyone picks syndra/veigar and few others over him since they are strictly better in every single aspect except for the lack of true damage. But true damage is irelevant due to Voidstaff being OP as it is to the point where people get it as their second item

Bassicy last whisper needs a nerf if you want that tankshredding niche. And even then regablade vayne could steal this niche **Varus, Ashe are already CC picks IMHO. they are already fine **

Vayne has a niche despite all the current hate. She is singletargeted lategame duelist no matter what you are Kalista has a niche with her W control and saving her Egirl slaves. REND on baron (Which is something smite should have but eh regardless)

The whole clean up niche is ultra gimmicky. This is a bad niche. none would want that

Reggardless of what you or I think

Marskman dont deserve changes except flat nerfs

#There are bunch of melee champions who needs rework and this should be priority not fkking overtuned marskman

But Riot would rather rework Azir (horrible rework Might I add), Rework Le blanc 15 times (she is fine atm she was fine before to), Rework ryze 15 times,

Just let Garen, Volibear and almost every bruiser cry till 2050

HalcyonDweller4 votes

When you exaggerate 15 times, you make it a lot harder for the rest of us to take your argument seriously. Don't hurt your own argument's persuasiveness like that. There are plenty of valid reasons to use without exaggerating and robbing your own argument of it's effectiveness.

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