What's the goal behind this Karma nerf?

IxtaliKing·Jul 13, 2016·17 votes·1,493 views

-10 off her base shield... why?

Edit: And now you want to remove the ability to shield minions? Wow, you guys really don't want her to have ANYTHING unique about her do you...

46 Comments

Ionian StarChildJul 13, 20165 votes

Hmm...so the normal shield is becoming more and more a speed buff ability rather than an actual shield. I also don't like that they removed the ability to shield minions. I like that I could speed a minion up so it can get to the turret faster when we're trying to siege. There are also moments when I would mantra shield a minion within reach just so I could be able to AoE shield allies that are outside my range, giving them a speed boost or that clutch shield for unexpected plays.

I hope these changes aren't final, like all the changes they propose on pbe for her. I hope they spend time on her this time around. Also, I don't mind that they changed her mantra-ed speed boost to be the same as the regular one. My only gripe with it is that mantra is supposed to be her "ult". It's supposed to empower the ability to be much stronger than the regular version. If they're making the speed boost on the mantra-ed version to be the same as the regular one, then at least provide compensation for it. I would like to see the mantra-ed version last more than the regular one. It could be a diminishing effect after the regular duration wears off.

IxtaliKingJul 13, 20161 votes

Just wow... I didn't know they removed her ability to shield minions until I saw your comment. That was one of the few things she could do that demonstrated a bit of experience. It's ridiculous.

SilverSquidJul 13, 20163 votes

I also don't like that they removed the ability to shield minions.

THEY WHAT???? brb....testing that.

EDIT: Negative. I can still E and RE minions. EDITEDIT: THAT'S ON THE PBE????? THE HELL RIOT????

My only gripe with it is that mantra is supposed to be her "ult". It's supposed to empower the ability to be much stronger than the regular version.

I remember a time when mantra was supposed to give you an opposite effect. You know, duality and stuff. Leave the empowering ult to heimer, the doubling to LB and the resetting to rango. Can I have some duality for Karma to table 4 pls?

Blumpkin NationJul 13, 20163 votes

They're removing the ability to shield minions because that's the standard. You used to be able to heal minions with certain champs as well, but now you can't. I believe it's to be consistent with the overall design and the fact that she can R/E a minion to have them tank a turret longer than what they originally had intended.

inplaneJul 13, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blumpkin Nation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lRX0yEcH,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-07-13T22:27:11.353+0000)

They're removing the ability to shield minions because that's the standard. You used to be able to heal minions with certain champs as well, but now you can't. I believe it's to be consistent with the overall design and the fact that she can R/E a minion to have them tank a turret longer than what they originally had intended.

But that's what makes her unique. It gives her that edge over other champs. They already got rid of the damage on her E.

Also, I don't get Riot's recent pattern of nerfs and buffs. Not-so-played champs are being destroyed while literal aids like Vlad are getting lovetaps.

morris1Jul 14, 20161 votes

OP champs = popularity = skins = $$$

SilverSquidJul 13, 20164 votes

I understand. And I would agree if it wasn't some of the last ways of skillexpression Karma players have. RE has now become even more boring than it already was. I agree that all champions should be consistent in this, and there are good arguments for removing it. But at least, please give Karma something else back to show that you understand her skills. Some way of outplaying people...

IxtaliKingJul 13, 20161 votes

Bro... I feel like they've just about completely destroyed Karma for me.

SilverSquidJul 13, 20161 votes

Death by a thousand stings. I feel ya, bro. I look at Ana, Zenyatta and Zarya and question why the hell it's not possible to have a dualistic champion, battlemage/enchanter in LoL.

inplaneJul 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Death by a thousand stings. I feel ya, bro. I look at Ana, Zenyatta and Zarya and question why the hell it's not possible to have a dualistic champion, battlemage/enchanter in LoL.

Karma was the definition of a dualistic champion back then. You could've use her as a battlemage, but you had to know her limits or else you'd get killed in an instant. In fact, being a battlemage was her playstyle due to her severe lack of range for a supposed ranged champ but powerful dueling abilities.

SilverSquidJul 14, 20162 votes

Yeah, I remember. She wasn't perfect, but with unique skill expression. Even though I did really like the 3.5 version too. The 5.10 changes kind of ruined it for me.

IxtaliKingJul 14, 20161 votes

Those characters are well done, there's no reason for Karma to lose her duality, they stripped something unique from their game in favor of something generic :/. Once the minion shielding is gone there will be no nuance left in her kit at all, it's all gone.

Blumpkin NationJul 14, 20161 votes

All of you have to remember that Karma will eventually be reworked. Her 'rework' was half-assed to begin with. They're keeping all the champions in line because their design philosophy has changed and I'm sure they don't want minions to be an interaction with abilities anymore. I'm sure when Nunu gets reworked, he'll be unable to Blood Boil minions too.

Don't worry guys. Karma will have her identity back eventually.

IxtaliKingJul 14, 20161 votes

Her rework has been left half-assed for like 3 years, and every time Riot has touched her since then they've made it even worse. It's hard for me to be optimistic where Karma is concerned because it feels like Riot just doesn't care about her, at all.

Blumpkin NationJul 14, 20161 votes

She, and a lot of other champions, are forgotten by Riot because they have completely screwed themselves over. Our community doesn't help either because of how much we rage and are negative. Riot could probably change more if we weren't spoiled children.

I say this because, they had the idea that it would be great to have patches every few weeks instead of large updates to address every issue. They probably have even less people working on the balance/design team due to other companies becoming popular.

Not to mention that Riot decided they needed, NEEDED, to have a champion pool of over 100 champions. Which is kind of sad because every time I look at all the champions, I still feel no desire to play more than 10 of them.

The Yetii RiderJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Bro... I feel like they've just about completely destroyed Karma for me.

lol

Make E less of a one skill wonder, shave 10 points off it and make it more reliable by taking away your ability to misclick in the heat of the moment.

And she's 'destroyed'. Okay then.

IxtaliKingJul 14, 20161 votes

How exactly does this change make E less of a "one skill wonder"? And for a Karma main shielding minions is a big deal, it's good for denying farm, allowing minions to tank towers and shielding allies outside of your cast range with RE. This is not an improvement, it's one less skill check.

The Yetii RiderJul 14, 20161 votes

It's not a skill Riot wants players to have. Soraka lost the ability to heal minions. So did Taric. I think Lulu was able to shield minions at one point but couldn't. Now Karma is losing it. After this they'll take away Alistar's ability to heal the whole wave and Janna's ability to shield turrets and we'll be in an actual game where things are balanced around their most common use cases instead of weird edge cases that are outdated.

IxtaliKingJul 14, 20163 votes

Somehow I don't think they'll be removing Janna's tower shield.

A LiberalJul 14, 20161 votes

I wonder if Alistar 's heal will get changed? If it does it'll need some serious buffs because otherwise it's just a severely weak AOE heal.

Doctor JarvisJul 13, 20162 votes

Because she's doing really well in the LCS, which means that normal people are picking her up and realizing that, yeah, she's pretty good, so they want to curb her power just a bit.

IxtaliKingJul 13, 20165 votes

The nerf looks quite insignificant tbh.

DeathBot666Jul 14, 20162 votes

What are you talking about.

It doesn't matter that she can chunk you for half health with a normal Q, or that an ulted snare can restore 40% max health if it isn't broken.

That 10 points makes her broken.

IxtaliKingJul 14, 20161 votes

Is this sarcasm?

DeathBot666Jul 14, 20161 votes

Yeah. If I knew how to add meme's into a post I'd make a sarcasm one.

People seem to miss it on boards.

IxtaliKingJul 14, 20161 votes

Oh lol, I'm terrible with sarcasm even irl

MisterShamelessJul 13, 20164 votes

How can you call this a nerf? Just revert her RE buff that no one asked for. This is what she needs.

Doctor JarvisJul 13, 20167 votes

Uh...its a nerf because it means the champion is LITERALLY less good than she was, even if it is only by 10 points on a shield. And what RE buff? All I remember is them taking away the damage it used to do and everyone crying about that.

MisterShamelessJul 13, 20163 votes

I know Karma isn't in the best spot right now and this isn't someone being salty as I main Karma in almost all roles since season 5. Riot has been trying to bandaid her issues, but she is still floating under 49% winrate in both sup and mid. She has plenty of success in top and a bit in jungle (depending on match ups), but not enough mains play her in those lanes. Her issues revolve around weak CC and not having enough damage so she suffers a lot in both support and mid. Right now she is a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Each lane she goes in, her build revolves around a single skill and not the entire kit. Riot should really try to pay attention to these issues that Karma mains want to be addressed along with a finished VU. The RE was not asked for and isn't even close to fixing the issues I mentioned. That's why we want the power to be shifted from her RE into RW where both her CC and Damage needs improving on.

MirkhailJul 14, 20161 votes

That's a job for the rework team. karma have identity problem and riot isn't sure about her (midlane? support? burst? cc? shield?) The balance live team can only change numbers.

MisterShamelessJul 13, 20162 votes

I honestly don't get this nerf. It does nothing with the current problem Riot did to her and they are still unwilling to address her issues. They made Karma into a shield bot with the RE buff, make her a Mage with utility, that's all we ask (along with a completed VU). Who cares if Karma is a consistent pick in the LCS and its been stated multiple times that the only reason Karma is strong right now is due to the nerfs to her competition in patch 6.6 (being Lulu and Janna).

SilverSquidJul 13, 20163 votes

Well it kiiiiiiiiiiind of takes away from her borderline reliability, cuts from her defensive options in lane and probably tries to build more on her offensive pokey nature. It indirectly also nerfed RE, because it scales with the base shield.

But overall it's just ridiculous. Nerfing a 49% winrate champion is mental, and I kind of doubt Riot has made up their mind what they want to do with her, so powershifting isn't going to happen until then. I remember a Rioter saying they like speeding around with E and hurling out RQs.... as if THAT's what Karma is about...

Voluug13Jul 14, 20161 votes

Yeah if you want mobility and long range nukes they have Nidalee for that.

Dont touch karma with that, return her to her battlemage self.

Lord DesertJul 14, 20162 votes

The nerf is only targeted at the +15%heal shield bonus from mikaeles and ardents. She has a f**** 440 shield + 110% ap + half to near allies for 4 seconds! get + 30% shield/heal and you get +132 base + 33%Ap for a combinded TOTAL OF 572 BASE SHIELD + 143% AP RATIO (60 Ap from ardents too). So be happy that they reduced the base value ONLY by 10 and not by like 100 or so xDD But most karmas just max there Q anyway.

The removal of shielding minions is sad thou, but understandable, no more minion heals or aura Mr reduc on abyssl so no more shields too :/

Voluug13Jul 14, 20161 votes

Because aside level 1-2 cheese, its all she has of worth, a big ult shield.

Lord DesertJul 14, 20161 votes

.... Are you serious? Ok lets only talk about sup Karma for a sec. Her RQ has a BASE Dmg Without the explosion of 435 + 90% Ap... 435 !!!!! thats more then any sup with there hole ability set... AND does 350 + 60% Ap again... so total of 785 +150% Ap!

all she has of worth, a big ult shield.

xDD Shes a sec Ap mage without Ap. And if she gets ~200 Ap(Ardents gives 60Ap!) she 2 shots Adcs every 20 sec. and/or gives 1k shields xD

IxtaliKingJul 14, 20162 votes

I wouldn't be too impressed by those numbers, she's a mage and RQ is her ult. Unless she build full ap with mpen her RQ falls off hard.

Lord DesertJul 14, 20161 votes

Say that 435 dmg +90% ap ratio with cost 70 mana on a 20 sec cd is not much SPECIALLY as sup is a little of. the thing is that we cant compare a 20 sec cd RQ to a 120 sec cd ult from anyone. So lets look at brand sup, one of the most annyoing pure dmg sups ot there: Q: 200 +55% Ap W: 255 + 60% (320 + 75% enhanced) Ap E: 150 + 35% Ap mana 50+90+100= 240 mana costs Total Dmg: 605(670) + 150%(165%) Ap lets ignor the passiv for now cause its hard to get it properly.

Karmas RQ costs 70 mana, has 435 dmg and 90% long range dmg and total 785 + 150%ap ......... IN A SINGLE SPELL 1/3 mana cost, ONLY 20 sec cdr(further reducable), 2/3 of dmg long range and instant.... No im not impressed at all, if the supp karma buys ardents, ap sup item, maybe ludens, and has 20 ap in runes she has ~250 ap and she could buy MORE like a deathcap etc. having 150% ratios on 20 sec, long range spells is the definition of late game monster Apcs

If you consider karma a bad sup/mage late game, then ,my friend, thank god that the karma was proply not good! And that you will never face a late game Karma sup!

LatetotheRaceJul 14, 20162 votes

Riot is attempting to remove her from the meta I believe. Why? Doesn't fit their narrative.

IxtaliKingJul 14, 20162 votes

They may as well delete her, why not? They've already sent her theme and her kit to hell so they might as well.

A LiberalJul 14, 20162 votes

D: NO

I can live with the -10 base shield nerf, but I love going and shielding my cannon minions (oftentimes with item 3060 ) while seiging. I used to do the same thing with item 3083 Soraka , but they removed that ability too.

Honestly I think it is just because they don't want champions to empower minions in general, other than item 3060 .

IxtaliKingJul 14, 20161 votes

Riot knows best, right :/

morris1Jul 14, 20161 votes

They are killing all of the fun. Annie or Malzahar + Soraka used to be a really fun duo lane to play with a friend.

Ahri the ArdenJul 13, 20161 votes

shes the new lulu, nerfs will keep coming till she stop being a must pick ban on lcs

MisterShamelessJul 13, 20161 votes

People said Karma was a weaker version of Lulu, now its the opposite. They won't nerf Karma a lot due to her winrate being awful (under 49% in sup and mid).