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PSA: Karma was at her healthiest when Mantra E dealt damage

IxtaliKing·9/8/2017, 2:20:23 PM·39 votes·2,710 views

Simply because it could actually fail. It had an optimal use case (full 5 man shield and damage), and two less efficient situational uses (purely offensive or purely defensive). Now that Karma's RE no longer has a damage component, we are presented with the following issues:

  • All of RE's power is concentrated into the shield values, meaning in order for this spell to be good or even viable the numbers need to be inflated. The spell then becomes problematic because it's strong whilst also completely lacking counterplay, hence the current nerfs.

Remember what RE was like before her shield was buffed (patch 6.6) and the support items were updated with % heal/shield (patch 6.13)? Yeah, it sucked. Removing REs damage was a massive back step in design, especially when you consider successful Enchanter abilities like Nami's W. Similar to Karma's shield bomb, Nami's W has an optimal use (heal/damage bounces) and two less efficient uses (just heal or damage), something both allies and enemies can play around.

  • Her passive had to be buffed to compensate for the loss of REs interaction. This made her kit a lot more forgiving, essentially giving access to more Mantras for doing a lot less (bad idea). The passive buff also spawned a nasty little tumor in top lane known as "Tank Karma", which saw her W go from a DoT ability to a point and click LeBlanc snare to nerf her RW passive interaction (perma healing).

  • Drastically lowered her skill cap. As a champion essentially based on decision making, making her decisions obvious (or brain dead as some would say) immediately ruins her. Then we end up with a low skill cap champion who can be poor in solo Q and yet dominate in competitive, sort of like a weird reverse Ryze/Azir.

  • Completely killed her theme. I know for the most part Karma lost her duality theme in her rework, but they kept her shield bomb (because it was iconic). Now thats gone, what theme is there? Meddler says shes lacking in "thematic delivery", but really, what theme is there to deliver on?

Genuinely wish a Rioter would give a definitive answer to this, but it's been asked many times and never been answered. From that one can assume that there is simply no answer. There's been speculation on whether or not her title "The Enlightened One" is meant to be her theme, but if that's so they also killed this theme when they took REs damage and simplified her Mantras.

The point is, the decision to skew Karma's balance more towards being an Enchanter ruined her because she inherited fundamental Enchanter issues. Lack of/or poor counterplay, low interaction, overlapping strengths, overly simplistic, anti-fun to be against etc... These ladies here > Janna Lulu SonaKarma Soraka .

66 Comments

dreadnoughtus019/8/2017, 2:41:05 PM4 votes

Yes, idk why they took it away then gave it to Ivern...

SilverSquid9/11/2017, 2:02:25 PM4 votes

Informative, as desired! Precise, as needed! Brilliant, as always!

Warden challenged me on a Karma rework the other day. You think I should do one of those, just to get some attention? The other post is killing me.

Sukishoo9/10/2017, 8:06:47 AM3 votes

Just bring back this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l59mZOi0NBc and she'll be good ;)

dreadnoughtus019/8/2017, 5:33:56 PM3 votes

Most likely I'm a bad abilities designer, but all the alternate ways I could think to making a unique mantra RE (not necessarily shield bombs but offensive options) were basically already items in-game

Mantra RE Thornmail = % of dmg reflected back as magic dmg onto attacker for main shield target for a short time Mantra RE Mikeal = ability to reflect the first crowd control ability cast on shield target, scaling for a % of the duration (25-50%) so it's not as punishing and can't be stacked

Though compared to a simple shield bomb, these two might be incredibly difficult to balance.

Voluug139/9/2017, 4:49:47 AM3 votes

Lets just delete the aoe shield and give back Karmaher old shield bomb. And her old Q. And her old W. And her old mantra. And give her a new passive. Ta-da.

Raoul9/13/2017, 2:57:04 PM2 votes

I loved the old Karma, but I guess not enough other people did.

I loved playing her top.

Warden Karma9/9/2017, 10:58:09 AM1 votes

I am concerned with post relaunch pre 5.10 RE's potential to be overloaded and that it was quite easy to make it work decent (just using it in teamfights with a little bit of aim was enough). The only skillexpression it had was basically to hit as much people (enemies and allies) as possible, which is a good direction for a mantra'd ability but then it was just too easy to use - and RQ/RW were very rarely choosen choosen above RE.

So the problems I see are (when Karma would get back her RE):

  1. RQ and RW need both an allied interaction (RQ heal, RW ?).
  2. RQ's colliding nature will prehibit it from being used in teamfights often.

My current solution: RQ becomes a 950-Range cone (medium width), healing allies (increased when low health) and damaging/slowing enemies.
RW: Karma does not need the root C on it, I would like to see the touching mechanic again. Unique, so much interaction, so much fun. Fits a battlemage. Why was it removed again?

Cone because I think its better to use then a ground targeted AOE (Skillexpressionwise: you still need to position which you wouldnt need so much with a ground targeted AOE; and its nostalgic).

  1. RE is too easy to pull off. Solution: Traveltime for the damage would be needed and most likely more. There would be many possibilities.

I am thinking of Karma's mantra'd ability usings somewhat like that: RQ - Harmony, buying second chance, turn things in your favor. RW - Manipulator/Interactor (interacts with Q/E) RE - Stabiliser, keeps the situation in your favor.

(and of course a new more fitting Passive)

Again wrote more than I wanted, but maybe it helps someone coming up with good stuff :)

REDREX79/8/2017, 4:08:07 PM1 votes

I do think Karma's shield bomb was healthier than the mega shield. HOWEVER there was still problems with shield bomb that made it kinda suck. The damage was not impressive enough nor would the shield value save you from sticky situations. At least with the mega shield value change it would save you more often in sticky situations. With shield bomb there was never really a scenario where you would use it over Mantra Q or Mantra W, as Mantra Q had more damage and Mantra W had more self saving. I remember reading that a lot of players including myself, saying that Mantra E shield bomb was a little lack luster because it needed levels and AP to do damage or shield. Mantra Q always felt good because Q is maxed and there was solid damage and a decent slow. Mantra W felt good always because it had decent damage and 40% missing hp healing is always good when your low. And then there was Mantra E... which you needed to be around allies to make it really useful, and you needed levels and AP to have good damage and good shield values. So it was only really useful later in the game and not so much in the laning phase. If they were to bring back shield bomb (which I want them to, over mega shield) there would need some new utility to make it super useful at all points in the game. Such as Mantra Shield on cast would stop all enemy dashes and blinks, and it would only stop dashes and blinks the instant you press it, not the duration of the shield value. What do you think Iceborn KIng?